The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Irresponsible financial advice

  • Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #127662  by Don
 Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:22 pm
So I'm seeing a lot of expert saying stuff like even though the stock market tanked 30% you should still have your faith in stock, because stock always make money on the long run and so on. That to me seems to be how we got into a mess in the first place. In my first company's 401K plan they basically say something like 'if you put $X in 401K and you earn 10% per year you'd have $Z million dollars by the time you retire!" Now 401K is usually a good investment anyway when you factor in the matching, but who guaranteeds that it has to go up by 10% per year? Just because it's the way things always has been? Nasdaq hit 5000 at one point, and let's say you bought it at 5000 and it dropped to 3000. At this point you lost 40% of your money, so should you hold onto it because it's got to get back up to 5000 eventually? Nasdaq closed below 1800 today, so if you're waiting for it to get above 5000 in the long run, you might be waiting for a very long time. Likewise I see no inherent truth as to why the Dow must get back to say 14000. Maybe a big recession kicks in and it takes 20 years to even get out of 10K again. I don't think Nasdaq will be getting past 5K in the next 20 years just because it was at 5K at one point.

Now obviously it's easy to say this in hindsight. Sure stock market is probably quite reliable as a steady investment during the good times. But the current time is anything but good. To me the guys who say you shouldn't sell basically assuming tomorrow we return to the good old days and you continue raking in your 10% per year average. Back in college one of the Macroeconomic classes I took has this viewpoint: "Most economist will argue progress is inevitable so economic activity always trend upward, but I argue that economic activity is cyclical." Obviously the book accounts for stuff like technological or population increases that increases overall GDP, but it says that basically the economic output doesn't go up even constantly after factoring in population growth unless you know next year someone's rolling out some cyborgs that are going to triple your production rate.

It seems like it'd be unpopular to say 'OMG sell and get out before you can!', but sometimes I think that's the right advice. Now I'm not saying this is what you have to do, because I'm operating on a guess here too, but I think there's a reasonable chance things will get even worse and it's better to lose 30% of your money than 50%, or even 100% of your money. Am I right? I have no idea, but I see no reason to assume that there's some fundamental truth that prevents me from being correct because what goes down must always go up.

 #127663  by Zeus
 Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:15 pm
It's the only sound long-term advice. That's why they always ask you what your risk tolerance is. If you're so risk averse you can't handle major swings, invest in GICs or treasury bills. You'll be giving away tons of reward for severely lowering your risk but it's up to you. But if you can handle it, you deal with these "major crisis" moments knowing that the market always bounces back. 50+ years of trend data proves it. It's too bad I don't have the one my advisor sent me last year when there was that market correction and everyone was shitting their pants.

I ain't retiring for another 20 years or so. I couldn't care less that it's down now, even as down as it is. It will bounce back up, it always does

 #127664  by Don
 Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:24 pm
Risk implies that there's a chance the whole thing that can fall apart. Otherwise it wouldn't be called risk. The Nasdaq is not going to recover anytime soon from its height, not even in the long run. I believe Keynes said "In the long run, we're all dead." If you're holding Nasdaq stock from when it was at 5000, and after 100 years it rebounded to over 5000, it doesn't do you much good because you'd literally be dead. Again, compare a scenario where you sold at 3000 (someone must have been able to do this) at a 40% loss, to holding it long enough for Nasdaq to get over 3000. How long do you think it'd take for Nasdaq to go over 3000? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? And all that to just get back the same amount you had if you sold earlier, and all this time you could've made more money investing elsewhere with the extra capital.

Just because you're willing to take risk, doesn't mean you'll always win at the end. The long-term gains is more of a reflection of population growth, technology, and specialization. If we got cyborgs that triple our productivity coming out tomorrow it's very safe to say in the long run the GDP will probably triple and everyone will have roughly 3 times more stuff. But the arguments made here are not based on any such fundamental breakthrough. I'm not aware of some technology or methodology that will suddenly change the way we do things. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it's also not a reason to believe it has to exist.

If it took 20 years for whatever you invest to recover to what it current is now, then you'd have lost a lot, even in the long run (opportunity cost for not having that money to invest over 20 years). So the timeframe does matter. Now obviously some people must believe that 'eventually' means something like 2-3 years, and if you believe that, that's not a very long time to wait. But if it really takes 20-30 years to recover, then it's not worth waiting it out that long.

 #127665  by Tessian
 Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:02 pm
Don wrote: Just because you're willing to take risk, doesn't mean you'll always win at the end.
...that's what makes it a risk, smart guy.

As my dad keeps saying-- you don't lose any money until you sell. I'm not a risk taker with finances, but right now the market really doesn't have much further down to go. The way I look at it as soon as the market starts to turn I'd jump on and grab some low low stocks. You won't have much to lose, and if you do then the market's in such a state that your money probably won't be worth much anyway ;)

I mean geez Don... stocks are called RISKS for a reason! And no, this whole mess has nothing to do with people buying stupid stocks and riding them out. Those who want to take the large risk right now stand to gain a LOT when the market turns around. The market is very self-fulfilling; if everyone believes it will tank, it will tank. If everyone starts believing that the worst is over and it's time to buy buy buy-- then that's what will happen.

 #127669  by Zeus
 Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:34 pm
Don, have you ever taken an intro finance class? There's a reason people like me who don't like risk (I'm quite risk averse) but still invest in very aggressive long-term mutual funds do it. Look it up, should be able to find it under "diversification" or something. Trust me, it's as foolproof as it gets.

You don't get the tax deductions for your RRSPs for nothing. Gov't wants you to invest in relatively safe investments, they don't want to pay for your ass on welfare when you're older (although them allowing self-directed RRSPs is a complete contradiction to the reasons for a tax break, but that's another bitchfest....man, I've been saying that a lot recently :-)

 #127673  by Kupek
 Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:14 am
Don's point is the same one Nassim Taleb makes in The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable. Taleb's most important idea is that everything is fine until it isn't, and the "isn't" part dominates everything. This leads to the conclusion that we don't actually understand the risks we take; we have numbers that quantify them, but built into those numbers is the assumption that things are relatively well behaved.

He distinguishes two different kinds of samples. One can be categorized by a mean, and the other is dominated by the extremes. Take human height. If I have a sample of 100 people, and I add one more, this person will not change the average much. Even if that new person is the shortest or tallest person in the world, the average won't move much. We can categorize height meaningfully with statistics, and make predictions with well understood probability distributions. Height is well behaved. Wealth is not. The wealthiest people are orders of magnitude more wealthy than the "average." In this kind of a sample, the average is meaningless (har har har). If I have a sample of 100 people's wealth, and I throw in Bill Gates, he dominates the sample entirely.

The stock market, and the economy, fit into the latter category.

I have difficulty actually recommending the book because Taleb is so goddamn full of himself, giving his prose both a cocky swagger and an obnoxious condescension. He has some good ideas, but you have to wade through a lot of crap to get to them. The book would have been better if it was half as long - and it's not long to begin with, because while important, his points are fundamentally simple.

 #127682  by SineSwiper
 Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:51 am
I had this argument with my mother. It's not bad advice from financial professionals. That's why they are the professionals. It's not even complex. It's basic fucking math and economics.

The stock market always bounces back in the end. We bounced back in the Great Depression. We bounced back with every bailout crisis. It always happens. Always.

The only time it won't will be when the government totally collapses and your money is worthless, anyway. At that point, I would be more concerned about other things than my 401k.

Consider this. You buy 401k stock at the 14K DJI high a year ago. The stock is now worth 80% of its value. Do you:

A. Transfer the stock to a cash savings account, which means that you lose 20% of its value.
B. Wait a few years (even if it's 10 years) for the market to bounce back and have the money come in 100% of its value
C. Wait 30-40 years for the money to come in at 200-300% of its value.

Obviously, the right choice is C, and that's the reason why you fucking invested in a 401k! So, do what I recently did, restructure future contributions to target more aggressive funds. That way, you'll earn a lot of money when the market bounces back. And the market will bounce back. I cannot stress this enough.

I wish you fuckers would quit giving bad advise to people! You are just going to damage people's retirement plans.

 #127688  by Zeus
 Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:16 am
SineSwiper wrote:I wish you fuckers would quit giving bad advise to people! You are just going to damage people's retirement plans.
Didn't I agree with you?

Kup, never trust an Arab with money. It's one of the laws of nature :-) And of course you have assumptions which you cannot control or fully comprehend, but ain't that in everything? Economics is based on that.....and so is science