The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • What do you Canadians think of our health care reform?

  • Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #143278  by ManaMan
 Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:51 am
So we'll finally have (almost) universal health insurance in the USA after they merge the bills in congress and Obama signs it into law. Most parts won't take effect for several more years and it will probably be a decade before the new system is fully in place. The reforms will be budget-neutral and will pay for themselves with new taxes, cuts to existing programs, and reforms to the existing Medicare program. The reforms are largely based on what was done in the state of Massachusetts from 2006-present. They now have almost universal coverage in the state (like 98%) through a combination of expanded public programs, subsidies, mandates, and regulation.

Basically, here's what the reformed health care system will look like:
<ul><li>Most people (60%+) will continue to get their health insurance through their employer.</li>
<li>People 65 and older will continue to get Medicare (which is like Candadian Medicare, but stingier, and only for the elderly)</li>
<li>Medicaid (the state-run program for the poor) will be expanded to cover far more people including all adults in poverty for the first time.
<li>There will also be health care "Exchanges" set up in the states which will sell a variety of private health insurance (a "public option" probably won't be available) including the same insurance that federal employees (congressmen, postal workers, etc) get. The idea is that everyone else will buy insurance from these exchanges. Premiums will be heavily subsidized on a sliding scale to make them affordable.
<li>You will be required to have health insurance through your employer, Medicare, Medicaid, or one of the Exchanges, or pay a tax penaltly (This is how it is done in Switzerland and several other European countries).</li>
<li>There are numerous other provisions that will make insurance fair: now they won't be able to deny you for a pre-existing condition, or charge you more for one, or drop you once you have coverage (unless you don't pay)</li>
<li>There are also numerous provisions to try to reign in costs in Medicare--a program which is quickly running out of money.</li></ul>
In the end, 95-98% of American citizens will have health coverage in 5-10 years--up from 85% now--with many of the most egregious practices of the health insurance industry ended. Most people won't notice much difference at all since most are already insured. The uninsured, unless they're poor or old, will be required to purchase private insurance (at subsidized rates in a fair market).

Thoughts? Comments?

I personally think that this is a logical step to make given our existing system. However, the existing system is pretty crappy. We will still spend more per person on health care than any other nation and we still won't have 100% universal coverage. Also, they stripped the provision that allows people under 65 to buy into a single-payer, government-run program like Medicare. I believe that this would have made the market much fairer. The political will to make more substantial changes just wasn't there. We have far too many lobbyists for large corporate health interests and far too many conservative politicians who believe health care is a privelege reserved for the higher classes.

 #143281  by Julius Seeker
 Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:55 am
I see it in the same way as I would were this the first time you allowed someone other than wealthy males to vote. It's a step in the direction that western society should have been at decades ago.

 #143283  by Zeus
 Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:24 pm
It's a step forward for you guys, particularly considering how powerful those companies (and their lobbyists) are. But at the end of the day, it's still a substandard system that will cost far more than it should and provide less care than it should, particularly when compared to the majority of the G8 nations.

I'm particularly concerned about these "exchanges". Who runs these things? What do you mean by "highly subsidized"? If the medical industry is fleecing the gov't and the people together as opposed to just the people, don't mean that it's good. The public will still be paying for it in a round-about way. If this bill doesn't at least cut one of the balls of the medical industry off, it's the equivalent of moving shit from one pile to another as opposed to cleaning it up.

Until you get real, public health care (we pay a pittance for it up here in many provinces; mine was $900 last year due to my salary) where the gov't pays a reasonable amount for it and every single person is entitled to basic health care without question, it should never, ever be something you guys are satisfied with. The profits those companies have enjoyed for 20+ years need to be lessened immensely. But what Obama and his adminstration seem to be doing is giving up quite a bit to ensure at least SOMETHING happens 'cause nothing would be an enormous blight on his entire first term of presidency, but it ain't really fixing the issue. This way, they can at least say "we've got basic, universal health care for the majority of Americans" when 2012 rolls around. The Republican think tank will have 2+ years to bash it so we'll see how much it'll hold for him.

At the end of the day, I didn't expect any better than this, though, considering who really runs the country down there. I give the guy credit for getting this much. It's at least one itty, bitty step forward which is more than any other president in the last two decades have given you.

 #143299  by ManaMan
 Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:19 pm
Seek, I agree with what you say. As I see it, these reforms are primarily a foot in the door for future changes and aren't the desired end result.

Zeus, thanks for the frankness. Many people from other nations always sugar-coat things for me when talking about American politics. I like honesty.
I'm particularly concerned about these "exchanges". Who runs these things? What do you mean by "highly subsidized"?
From my understanding the government of each state will run its own exchage. The administrators of the exchanges will decide on a standard set of benefits that all plans must provide and individuals can shop based on price (ideally bringing down costs through competition). The federal government defines a standard baseline of benefits. I'm thinking that shopping for coverage in these "exchanges" will be done primarily through a web application like Massachusetts already has for theirs (https://www.mahealthconnector.org/porta ... connector/).

As for the subsidies (http://dpc.senate.gov/healthreformbill/healthbill04.pdf):
New, refundable tax credits will be available for Americans with incomes between 100 and 400 percent of the federal poverty line (FPL) (about $88,000 for a family of four). The credit is calculated on a sliding scale beginning at two percent of income for those at 100 percent FPL and phasing out at 9.8 percent of income at 300-400 percent FPL.
The document is older, I think that the monthly premiums are reduced automatically instead of you getting a tax credit. Also, small businesses and people whose jobs provide them with crappy coverage (see: McDonalds and WalMart) can opt to get subsized insurance through the exchanges.
Until you get real, public health care (we pay a pittance for it up here in many provinces; mine was $900 last year due to my salary) where the gov't pays a reasonable amount for it and every single person is entitled to basic health care without question, it should never, ever be something you guys are satisfied with.
The thing that dissapoints most about the reform bill is that the public option was stripped by "moderate" Democrats (Canadian translation: "far right") who said it would be "unfair competition to private insurers" or would pay "rates too low for hospitals to survive on" never mind the fact that providers in most other nations survive on lower rates than what Medicare pays... I'm sure that after private insurers continue to jack up rates for another decade at inflation times two or three that a public option will have enough momentum to be added... or it will just prove that the whole system is a joke and we need to scrap it an start over again. Either way, I'm good.

 #143325  by SineSwiper
 Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:58 am
I think that it will definitely help more than many people are making it out to be. I've read summaries of the bill, including the final bill in the Senate, and there's a lot of good changes in there.

Also, the public option will likely be in the final bill. It was in the House version, and now that they have stop discussing the bill in the Senate, they no longer have to worry about closure votes, which means that they can pass a bill with only the standard 50 votes. Getting 50 votes on a public option will be easy. All they have to do is put it in the final bill, and both houses will pass it. Hell, all of those people they bargained with, they can probably get rid of some of those pork-riddled deals they did for Senate votes. It was only a few people they needed to get the 60 votes.

That's not to say that we should move towards a single-payer system, as all of this paperwork and all of the insurance debating and the entire insurance industry costs a LOT of money. However, we have to be realistic. We cannot topple 1/6th of our economy overnight. We have to bring it down to size and then slow get down to a single-payer system.

 #143649  by Flip
 Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:39 pm
Health care reform is in jeopardy now, with the Republican senate seat win in Massachusetts. Biggest upset ever, the woman Democrat candidate is an idiot.

 #143652  by Zeus
 Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:58 pm
It's dead in the water. For once in my life, I feel pity for the Americans

 #143653  by ManaMan
 Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:32 pm
Don't feel bad for me! I can always just move to Canada. I'm still young enough that I'm not too terribly tied down and I'm an educated professional who wouldn't have a tough time getting citizenship!

That's the good thing about being progressive politically in the US: you can always find somewhere else more progressive politically to move to if the need arises. US Conservatives don't have that same option, because, well, the US is the most conservative first-world nation. I think this is mainly due to racism and resentment over forced racial integration in the south... but that's the topic of another post.

I do feel bad for the folks who don't have the option to up and emmigrate...

------------------------------------

I'm sure the congress will pass some sort of health care reform. Remember, bills have passed both houses of Congress and the Democrats still have an overwhelming majority. Also, the Republican senator who was just elected voted for the Massachusetts universal health care reform bill when he was a state senator and said just yesterday that he still supports universal coverage--just not some provisions of the current bill. Obama has pledged to work with him and other Republicans on a compromise bill if all else fails.

Congressional democrats also have a few other options at their disposal:

1. The House of Representatives could simply approve the Senate bill in its current form and send it to Obama to sign. However, many progressive Democratic representatives say they won't vote for it in its current form because it is too weak and tilted toward corporate interests instead of the common man (no public option, not enough subsidies, etc).

2. The House could pass the Senate version and the Senate could add additional items to the bill with only 51 votes (as opposed to 60) through a process known as Reconciliation. This may only be used for items that are budget related. This could be used to add the public insurance option, expand Medicare/Medicaid to more people and to boost subsidies.

3. Obama, the Democratic Congressional leadership, and a handful of centrist Republicans could hammer out a deal in Conference committee that would pick up enough Republican votes to pass (to make up for lost progressive Democrat votes). They would essentially take both bills, take out parts they don't like, and/or add new parts and send it to both houses for a vote.

4. The least likely option (and what the Republicans want) is to start from scratch with a bipartisan committee and give the Republicans tons of concessions to buy their support and then pass a "bipartisan" (read: Republican) bill.

------------------------------------

Really though, I think this whole thing points to how undemocratic our system is. A handful of millionare senators from backwater states control our destiny. The Senate is supposed to be our version of the "House of Lords", the "Upper" chamber of Congress. Its purpose is to keep the passions and whims of the masses in check. I honestly think it's outdated, undemocratic, and should be scrapped. We no longer need lordly oversight to run our government.

 #143667  by Zeus
 Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:59 pm
Flip wrote:I find it amusing that our nation's health care reform revolves around Mass's crazy obsession with Curt Schilling and the saaaaux.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marie-c-w ... 30568.html
This is why you guys don't deserve good health care :-)

 #143673  by SineSwiper
 Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:31 am
Flip wrote:Health care reform is in jeopardy now, with the Republican senate seat win in Massachusetts. Biggest upset ever, the woman Democrat candidate is an idiot.
Also keep in mind that the guy in Mass is from the same state that has universal health care. They could potentially use him for the 60th vote. He's actually said after he got elected that he's wanting to be a part of health reform.

The bad news is that they don't have enough votes in the House for the Senate bill, so they have to merge the two bills and go through that 60 vote bullshit in the Senate, if they hope to pass it. Fucking House just doesn't understand that if they don't pass it, the bill may die right there. Surely they understand that if it dies, it's worse than what was not in the bill.

 #143695  by ManaMan
 Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:19 pm
I guess you have to be kind of an egotistical ass to think you're qualified to run the country, just par for the course.
 #145221  by Imakeholesinu
 Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:08 pm
I'm sure Rush, O'Reilly, Beck, and the rest of Faux News are now telling people to get militant because we're now socialized. Prepare for the end of the world, the sky is falling, the end is near!
 #145228  by Zeus
 Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:51 pm
Ain't necessarily a bill yet. They gotta pass that complimentary bill and the Republicans are already talking about stopping it through legal means. It may yet be 'til the end of the summer before it comes into effect if at all.

BTW, this is just an observation, but do the Republicans EVER use any other excuse other than the "it costs too much" one when publicly slamming any Democrat bill? It seems to work 'cause that also what I hear coming out of so many Americans' mouths, including many here.
 #145230  by Flip
 Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:23 pm
Zeus wrote: BTW, this is just an observation, but do the Republicans EVER use any other excuse other than the "it costs too much" one when publicly slamming any Democrat bill? It seems to work 'cause that also what I hear coming out of so many Americans' mouths, including many here.
Here is one of the better rundowns of pros and cons ive come across on the web so far.

http://squashed.tumblr.com/post/4610436 ... eform-bill
 #145240  by Zeus
 Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:54 pm
Flip wrote:
Zeus wrote: BTW, this is just an observation, but do the Republicans EVER use any other excuse other than the "it costs too much" one when publicly slamming any Democrat bill? It seems to work 'cause that also what I hear coming out of so many Americans' mouths, including many here.
Here is one of the better rundowns of pros and cons ive come across on the web so far.

http://squashed.tumblr.com/post/4610436 ... eform-bill
OK, see, that's a nice, non-partisan run-down of the pros and cons. Better than most of the babble I hear or read. It presents both sides of the argument without slamming either side.

Still, after having read that, sure, it's not a perfect system, but it surely is better than what you have now. Even if it costs a bit more (that's debatable; it could end up costing or saving money, depending) I think it's still fine. Isn't that the point of having a government and paying taxes, for the greater public good as a whole (instead of just a small portion)?
 #145244  by SineSwiper
 Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:42 pm
Zeus wrote:Still, after having read that, sure, it's not a perfect system, but it surely is better than what you have now. Even if it costs a bit more (that's debatable; it could end up costing or saving money, depending) I think it's still fine. Isn't that the point of having a government and paying taxes, for the greater public good as a whole (instead of just a small portion)?
Unless you in a party that only believes in smaller government and tax cuts, and then implements the tax cuts but not the smaller government.
 #145267  by Zeus
 Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:12 am
SineSwiper wrote:
Zeus wrote:Still, after having read that, sure, it's not a perfect system, but it surely is better than what you have now. Even if it costs a bit more (that's debatable; it could end up costing or saving money, depending) I think it's still fine. Isn't that the point of having a government and paying taxes, for the greater public good as a whole (instead of just a small portion)?
Unless you in a party that only believes in smaller government and tax cuts, and then implements the tax cuts but not the smaller government.
Size of government and cutting of taxes aren't necessarily against the public good
 #145306  by Flip
 Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:08 pm
This bill very clearly divides our country since it is basically all being paid for by the rich. In most curcumstances (income tax to an extent), everyone pays, but the rich pay more. For this one, though, the rich are shelling it alllllll out.

Its amazing how little the population is of $200,000+ earners, yet their outrage and voice seem so large. Lots of influence, kinda scary.
 #145318  by SineSwiper
 Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:14 pm
If you can say "money is no object", then you would certainly have no objections to giving money for programs that help less fortunate individuals.
 #145347  by Flip
 Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:58 pm
Ive come to realize that maybe... MAYbe there are people out there that for some odd reason dont want health care. They are getting screwed since they have then pay a fee for being uninsired, but who does this actually apply to?

Most people get insured through their employer, which this bill changes nothing about. Those who dont, either cant afford heath insurance (but want it) or pay for a personal insurance that is very expensive and want cheaper health insurance, which this bill provides. I cant think of anyone who doesnt have health insurance and likes it that way. I suppose this is America *dammit* and 'if i choose not to have insurance i should be able to!' but do those people exist?
 #145356  by SineSwiper
 Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:33 pm
The main thing at hand is the fact that a majority of Americans have insurance. A majority of Americans are happy with their insurance. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that a majority of people are apathetic and only care about themselves and the people around them. (Which is probably true, anyway.)

Now, this majority is looking at a bill that changes insurance. The insurance that they are happy with. They immediately reject it, revolt, start tea party protests, spread disinformation, are willfully ignorant, etc.

However, the underlying issue is that these people are HAPPY with their insurance. They do not understand that 90% of the insurance cost is covered by the companies who employ these people. They do not understand that insurance companies have a history of dropping coverage for sick people, effectively putting a death sentence for some. They do not understand that insurance companies are paying millions of dollars to spread misinformation, misinformation that these people believe.

Even if they do know that, they are apathetic and will only listen to reason when something happens to personally affect them, like when they get cancer and lose their job in a short period of time. When they feel the pain of insurance companies fucking them over, only then will they think that maybe they should push for change in the system.
 #145359  by Julius Seeker
 Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:58 am
The wealthy not wanting the poor to have priviledge is a common theme throughout history. Except here it is moving by means of pens rather than guillotines and firing squads.

I think that the major reason for violent US crime is due to the fact that people have to resort to a criminal life to get by.
 #145403  by ManaMan
 Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:25 am
Well, I was on vacation when this passed in an "internet-free zone" unfortunately. I'm truly proud to be an American. The Senate bill that the House passed--even without the "fix" bill--does provide universal coverage to all those who don't reject it and Obama has signed it. The federal government will now begin implementing it.

Many of the provisions won't be enacted for years. The federal government and state governments will be implementing this bill over the next decade.