I've just lived through one of the worst weeks of my life.

[Agent 57]

A little while ago, I asked my girlfriend of 7+ months to stay at my house for a week, instead of just sleeping over during the weekend as she usually does. I thought it would be a good way to see what things would be like if she were eventually to move in but without actually moving her in, etc.

So she shows up on Friday with a big bag of stuff. We're happy to see each other as we always are, we have fun that night, and I ask her at some point during the evening when she's going to get her period. She replied that it will be coming up during the weekend, most likely on Sunday, since her period has come as regular as clockwork since she started the pill back in April. The rest of Saturday and Sunday pass relatively uneventfully, and it's not until she comes home on Monday night that she reveals how shaken she is by the fact that her period has not arrived yet. So what, I say, women's periods vary by a couple days all the time, right? Yeah, she says, but I've been right on day #21 for months now...and I took my first pill late this month because I got to the pharmacy five minutes after they closed, couldn't pick up my next pack until the next morning, and then promptly forgot about it.

Oh, shit.

Needless to say, we both freaked the hell out. She's still an undergrad (graduating this semester) and a while ago was talking to me about her plans to get her PhD and become an English professor, and I've got plans of my own that a baby would most definitely FUBAR, so this situation was definitely not a good thing.

Since a few days after a missed period is essentially too soon to take a home pregancy test, we were basically stuck waiting around to see if she would get her period, and it refused to cooperate - even when it did show up it quickly went away again, which only served to freak us out more as it could have been a symptom of pregnancy called implantation bleeding. After a week of being scared out of our wits, she finally got into her doctor's office for a blood test yesterday, and this morning, called to get her results:

Negative. PHEW!
<hr>
So, even though all's well that ends well, this past week was quite the suck. We both spent an inordinate amount of time blaming ourselves, feeling incredibly stupid, and generally being on an emotional rollercoaster that nearly made us both puke.

We also had all the typical, After-School Special conversations you'd expect - "I never thought this could happen to me", "What are our parents/friends going to think", "what in hell are we going to do", yadda yadda yadda. There was one conversation, however, we had that stands out in my mind, and is actually the reason why I'm writing this post.

We were lying in bed on Wednesday night, during a fresh bout of freaking out, and discussing the whole abortion issue. (Before she met me, my GF thought she was pro-life, but conversations we've had coupled with the events of the past week have left her staunchly pro-choice. Her parents, however, are pro-life, and I shudder to think what would have happened had she actually been pregnant and decided to abort.) Anyway, at one point after I told her the decision was ultimately up to her, she said, "Yeah, but you're 'population control, Americans are wastes of resources, don't have kids' guy", to which I replied, "If I really believed that, I would have gotten a vasectomy by now."

That was the statement that gave me pause, mainly because it was entirely true and I hadn't realized it yet. Sure, I may think those sorts of things and debate that positon in conversation, but if I really truly believed it with every fiber of my being, I would have two severed vas deferens. Which then made me ask myself - why <i>haven't</i> I gotten a vasectomy? What good reason do I possibly have to want biological children of my own?

The arguments for sterilization are admittely compelling. It's safe, cheap, and effective, there would be no more worries about pregnancy as a result of recreational sex (which is a MASSIVE peace of mind boost), and if I ever do in fact want to start a family, I can *adopt* a child, which would actually improve the lives of many people in one shot and be a benefit to society. Sounds like a win-win, doesn't it?

And on the contrary, when I turn around and look at the alternative, the only reasons I can find to back up that position are arrogance, selfishness, and brainwashing. I mean, I spent a majority of my life having fantasies and daydreams about being a father, basically inspired by all those adults telling me about when I "grow up, get married and have kids"; I feel like I would conceivably want biological children solely to see my genes/family name passed on; and I feel since I am of above-average intelligence, it would be better to have my own kid than raise someone else's - yet paradoxically, how smart can I be if these are the sorts of arguments that are swaying me?

So there you have it. I'm conflicted between the obvious logical benefits that sterilization would provide and the instinctual emotions that keep screaming at me to not cut off the possibility of my own children. You guys are my peers, and I respect your opinions. What do you all think?

[Lox]

Well, for one, I understand the freaking out part. That happened to me one time with a previous g/f.

What you just went through is one of many reasons why I'm glad my fiancee and I are waiting until we're married in the spring for anything to happen (been together almost 3 years at that).

Anyways, I know I want my own family and my fiancee and I have discussed adoption as a definite option even if we have biological children. I just think about how many kids there are out there without parents or families and how I could fill that role and give those kids the love I got my whole life. It's freaking expensive but we'd figure something out.

I also know that there's a desire to have biological children. I want to look down at a newborn and say "I made this with the woman I love." Why? I have no idea. I just do. And yeah, you can look at that and say it's selfishness because there are already enough kids in the world but a part of me doesn't care about that.

I guess you just have to really think about it and decide if it would make you that much happier to have a biological child. If there is no reason why it would, then by all means adopt instead. There's nothing wrong with that, imo.

[Julius Seeker]

As far as the urge to reproduce, it is not totally curtural, there is also an instinctual aspect about it as well. For the argument of passing on genetic traits, look at yourself and the one you wish to reproduce with. Are there undesirble traits in the genes such as hemophilia, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, or even not so dangerous things such as severe skin disorders and hairloss; if none of these are a factor, then I would definitely encourage you to reproduce; if so, then the question is really left to your own decision, I wouldn't try to discourage you, but neither would I encourage you =P. I think that healthy people with very positive genetic traits should reproduce, not because it would necessarilly make the world a better place, but so that humanity will overall be a healthier species.

As for having the pregnancy scare, I know the feeling well. It is a very scary time, and one that can almost seem as the central moment in your entire life. It happened to me when I was fairly young. The only difference is that it wasn't just a scare, it was reality, I have a daughter who was put up for adoption fairly soon after she was born.

(I had quite a lot more written here, but I just decided to delete it all since I got into a lot of emotional stuff, and a lot of other stuff about my life that probably isn't relevent and would get things too much off track. So I just skipped through to my last paragraph)

All in all, yeah, I understand what you went through to an extent. I suppose you are older than I was, a little wiser. Though, I would guess that you entered a similar "zone" that I did. Looking at it from the outside though, later on, you'll see that it wasn't really nearly as bad as you thought it was while still in the "zone". If you're anything like me, then you were probably thinking constantly, and keeping yourself awake a lot more than what was healthy, and sometimes maybe even afraid to face certain things or people, illogical it will seem later; if you don't believe this, ask yourself this, have you spoken to your parents about this? I know I certainly did not talk to my mom about it, she heard it from someone else =P If you have told your parents, then you indeed are wiser than I was at the time.

[Nev]

Hmmm.

As my friend said of children during one of our IM conversations recently, "I love them, with a light black bean sauce."

Seriously, I don't know that I'd ever feel comfortable giving anyone advice on whether or not to get a procedure like that done, even my best friends who I've known and been friends with for years. That's got to be your choice, man.

For what it's worth, I've very seriously considered not having children myself, and adopting instead, if I decide to raise some kids later on. I tend to believe nurture is a lot more important than nature, and I'm not sure I think my genetics are all that special. However, again, I wouldn't want to make the assumption that my experience and desires should have anything to do with yours.

Sincerely,
Mental

[SineSwiper]

Vasectomies are reversable, you know. Maybe you should consider getting one as a backup to the pill. The only reason why the pill is 99% effective, instead of 100% effective is because of people missing their pill. When you want to have kids, just get a doctor to hook it back up.

Also, I somewhat disagree with Seeker's genetics argument. All people are genetically unhealthy. It's just a matter of which genes. I myself have a genetic history of heart disease (two generations of fatal heart attacks, with my mom's prevented by modern medicine), low metabolism, and some minor mental health issues. Shellie's got her own bad genetics as well.

Does that mean we wouldn't have a kid? No, because we have enough good traits to pass along. Everybody does. The human race has survived because of diversity. Even the bad traits have kept us alive and given us challenges who solutions prove helpful for other things.

[Julius Seeker]

Well, my post was not to discourage anyone at all from reproducing. There are people who have good genetics, long life spans, no genetic ailments etc... My post was about encouraging those people with good genetics to reproduce =P

A lot of what kills people, or makes them unhealthy, is not linked to genetics, a lot of cancers aren't, but rather to outside factors, diet, living conditions, etc... It is sometimes difficult to distinguish what is genetic related and what is outside condition related, it takes careful study by experts.

I am currently reading the book Brave New World, so this is a topic that is of interest to me =)

Well, in the book they have mastered the art of gene manipulation; but it is believed that people of weaker genetics are required in order for society to function smoothly. Those who have played Xenogears and not read Brave New World will recognize the concept (borrowed from that book) of the Alphas (bred to be the smartest, strongest, and fastest), Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and finally the Epsilons. I am not saying I agree with Huxley, but I find his ideas quite interesting.

[Imakeholesinu]

First off, getting the tubes cut is reversable, so you can always go back.

Secondly, after talking to two of my friends who have had kids, one completely unplanned, they said that there is nothing more powerful than holding your own child after he/she is born and put into your arms. That is your flesh and blood, your family and your legacy is passing on into a new generation. I don't consider raising your own children brainwashing, arrogant, or selfish.

I understand the argument about underprivlaged children and it is a shame and that there are children like this, but it should be your decision to not have your own children, not because of some brainwashing, or arrogant or selfish attitude.

Thridly, No 1 form of birthcontrol is 100% fool-proof and where there is a will, there is a way. My best friend's father had his tubes cut and still got his wife pregnant and they had their third child at 47.

Personally, whatever floats your boat. I want to have a kid sometime even though Natsumi has kinda voiced her opinion as a big no and a no to marriage, but that's a whole nother thread. I'm 5 months into a relationship, and I think it's kinda odd that you are already having her spend like a week at your place. I guess my view on relationships is a bit scewed since two of my closest friends are in 5-6 year relationships with girls they met in high-school so really, the thought of her moving in with me is far from my mind because I'm still an undergrad and she's in grad school. I've got an IT degree to look forward to after May and she's still got a year and a half left in her MBA program after I graduate in May.

Just my two cents.

[Flip]

The unplanned pregnancy scare sure is an eye opener. It seems a lot of us have been through it. Me and my wife, when we were in college and engaged, had the scare twice. Both turned out negative. Honestly, i'm not too sure how much of it wasnt just womaly overreaction, but that is neither here nor there. I'm glad things turned out the way you wanted them to for your sake.

As for the current debate, i thinik i could live very happily with adopted children. I do have a desire to have a kid, but simply to be able pass on the knowledge and do all the fun dad things, not a desire that it has to be from my own loins. Maybe that instinc is just not as strong in some people. Maybe it has to do with that i have two dogs (who obviously are not of my loins) that i love to death. Not a very good comparison to a child, but it is the closest thing i have.

The choice, though, should come from your heart (cliche and gay, i know). Dont adopt because you want to feel righteous and show all your neighbors and the world how good of a person you are, do it because YOU want to out of love for the kid. If you want to have your own, then do that and dont feel guilty. The secret of life and our purpose is pretty simple; keep the race going or improve life for the race. Adopting or having your own fits either.

[Imakeholesinu]

The choice, though, should come from your heart (cliche and gay, i know). Dont adopt because you want to feel righteous and show all your neighbors and the world how good of a person you are, do it because YOU want to out of love for the kid. If you want to have your own, then do that and dont feel guilty. The secret of life and our purpose is pretty simple; keep the race going or improve life for the race. Adopting or having your own fits either.

That's what I was trying to get at.

[SineSwiper]

I'm 5 months into a relationship, and I think it's kinda odd that you are already having her spend like a week at your place. I guess my view on relationships is a bit scewed since two of my closest friends are in 5-6 year relationships with girls they met in high-school so really, the thought of her moving in with me is far from my mind because I'm still an undergrad and she's in grad school.

I remember a common joke that a lesbian told me: "What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A U-Haul." I met Shellie on a Friday, and practically lived there. I think I finally got around to moving my stuff when my roommate was getting another pad. (Kind of an odd situation; another good friend of mine kinda took over my place when I was gone. I even gave him a key to the apt. Eventually, my two friends got along and went to rent another place.)

[Imakeholesinu]

I'm 5 months into a relationship, and I think it's kinda odd that you are already having her spend like a week at your place. I guess my view on relationships is a bit scewed since two of my closest friends are in 5-6 year relationships with girls they met in high-school so really, the thought of her moving in with me is far from my mind because I'm still an undergrad and she's in grad school.

I remember a common joke that a lesbian told me: "What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A U-Haul." I met Shellie on a Friday, and practically lived there. I think I finally got around to moving my stuff when my roommate was getting another pad. (Kind of an odd situation; another good friend of mine kinda took over my place when I was gone. I even gave him a key to the apt. Eventually, my two friends got along and went to rent another place.)

Ironically, we had a discussion about the whole "living together" idea last night and it turned out like this. She doesn't see us living together in the near future, meaning at least for the next 5 years (when her visa[SP?] status here ends). Apparently, she says she never saw us living together where as I have dropped several hints as to us living together in STL when we both get done with school down here in the boonies. This promted a big discussion about wasting one anothers time and her not wanting the same things in the relationship I do necessarily (i.e. marriage, possible children, a dog...etc, etc.) and she told me to tell her when I thought this all would be a problem. Seriously when wouldn't it be a problem though? But then I keep myself in check by saying maybe I'm jumping the gun because 5 months isn't that long, so I'll wait and see how things pan out, but I don't see it as a waste of time at all. If anything I wouldn't see any meaningful relationship as a waste of time because from it you learn.

[Lox]

Seriously when wouldn't it be a problem though? But then I keep myself in check by saying maybe I'm jumping the gun because 5 months isn't that long, so I'll wait and see how things pan out, but I don't see it as a waste of time at all. If anything I wouldn't see any meaningful relationship as a waste of time because from it you learn.

It depends on what your goals are. If your goals are to eventually marry this girl and live together then yeah, it sounds like a waste of time. You'll just end up wishing she would change when she very well may not. If you're cool being in a more casual relationship and just going with the flow, then you're fine. It sounds like you're leaning more towards the casual go-with-the-flow type but then you also say you want marriage, kids, maybe a dog at some point so you basically need to evaluate what you want from this relationship and whether you can get it.

[Julius Seeker]

Well, sometimes living together isn't the best idea. As soon as the woman moves in, SHE takes over the household and will hold you to higher standards than she holds herself. I am talking, one fucking dish left in the sink, and it's as bad as if you accidently backed over the family cat. If the garbage is sitting around for two days, or accidently leave a book or DVD case sitting on top of the cofee table.... And all of your friends immediately become assholes, no matter how good of people they are. God gave man the back of his hand for a reason!

Anyways, it depends on the girl, some girls are comfortable with moving in right away; others don't want it at all. Personally, I much prefer to have my own space. I always found a good set-up is that both have their own places, they can still sleep together every night, but each still has their own place, their own space.

And over the years, I have come to quite a large discovery, that is that all girls secretly hate each other. It is something that is not documented, but it is true. Even their best friends, in fact, it seems like girls hate their best friends the most. Then when the other girls are around, they may seem they are having a great time together, but their not, they are constantly judging each other; and if she is looking pretty, then there is resentment, if not so pretty then she's inferior. Girls, unlike guys, seem to lack the ability to see anyone as an equal, and are always trying to gain the upper hand.

The main form of manipulation they try to use is that they pretend like they're depressed about something, and don't even tellyou what it is. But you think logically, so you really aren't even sure about it sometimes, until you think a little more, and you realize it is something ridiculous that you don't see as anything more than the issue of what it is. Watch out for these things, and it's always an over-reaction!

The best reason to move in with a girl is so she'll stop phoning you all the time. Why the hell do we come up with that kind of logic, but it's exactly what we think sometimes! This always comes up as one of the top 5 benefits of moving in together.

Despite my rant, and the female tendency to not think logically, I really do love girls =)

[Lox]

Despite my rant, and the female tendency to not think logically, I really do love girls =)

Man Lover!!!

[Kupek]

It depends on what your goals are. If your goals are to eventually marry this girl and live together then yeah, it sounds like a waste of time. You'll just end up wishing she would change when she very well may not. If you're cool being in a more casual relationship and just going with the flow, then you're fine. It sounds like you're leaning more towards the casual go-with-the-flow type but then you also say you want marriage, kids, maybe a dog at some point so you basically need to evaluate what you want from this relationship and whether you can get it.

That was my take until I saw that they've only been together five months. I think it's too early to fret about life decisions after five months, unless they're forced on you.

[Lox]

It depends on what your goals are. If your goals are to eventually marry this girl and live together then yeah, it sounds like a waste of time. You'll just end up wishing she would change when she very well may not. If you're cool being in a more casual relationship and just going with the flow, then you're fine. It sounds like you're leaning more towards the casual go-with-the-flow type but then you also say you want marriage, kids, maybe a dog at some point so you basically need to evaluate what you want from this relationship and whether you can get it.

That was my take until I saw that they've only been together five months. I think it's too early to fret about life decisions after five months, unless they're forced on you.

I would probably agree with you.

He'd be much better staying casual and seeing what happens rather than worrying now but it all really depends on how he feels about it. Regardless of our suggestions, it's hard to change the way you feel.

[Imakeholesinu]

After meeting her and finding out what her preferences were, like not getting married, I thought it would just be like a few relationships I know of friends of my parents who never got married but still lived together as if they were husband and wife. (Common law is 7 years in MO) I am leaning towards marriage more on the part of peer pressure from my friends who have pretty much condemed my relationship since Natsumi doesn't like the idea of marriage, but I have been able to get it out of her about what her wedding would look like if she had one, which means she does think about it.

Again, I'm not going to get married anytime soon because I'm too young and too broke.

In reply to seeker's post, yes. Women do hate one another. Natsumi does that all the time. She'll talk about her friends and all the wrong things they do, then she'll go into work and have a ball with them or when she calls them on the phone (one lives in wyoming and a few others in Japan) she'll talk to them for hours right after she got finished telling me all the injustices they've committed against the world. And they think we're stupid? We might be, but it's better than being fake or illogical.

My friends have already been condemed to assholedom and we have to keep her separate from them. Meaning basically if I want to go to a party, Natsumi doesn't want to go because of my friends being there. Crazy and disheartening because my friends (especially my friends girlfriends) want to include her, but she just doesn't want to include herself. Is that weird?

PS. Sorry for stealing your thunder Agent.

[Zeus]

Isn't a vesectomy a more risky option (ie. can't have kids ever again) than an abortion? I mean, the pills are, I think, the best method to avoid pregnancy (taken properly, they're 99.99% effective; my wife's a nurse, she knows this shit), but the only real choice for guys is the snip. No one wants to go through it and surgery is always more risky than a pill.

Also, if you guys are really scared/don't trust the pill, there's always the morning after pill. That's an extra defense. If a kid is going to be born through the normal pill and the morning after pill, that kid deserves to be born.

[Lox]

If a kid is going to be born through the normal pill and the morning after pill, that kid deserves to be born.

Personally, I think that if the parents get into a position where there is a pregnancy then I think the kid deserves to be born. In consensual relationships, no one is forced to have sex. If a pregnancy occurs in any case it's the fault/responsibility of the people who did it (myself included if my scare had turned into reality). Obviously, not everyone agrees with that, but it's how I personally feel.

[Julius Seeker]

If a kid is going to be born through the normal pill and the morning after pill, that kid deserves to be born.

Personally, I think that if the parents get into a position where there is a pregnancy then I think the kid deserves to be born. In consensual relationships, no one is forced to have sex. If a pregnancy occurs in any case it's the fault/responsibility of the people who did it (myself included if my scare had turned into reality). Obviously, not everyone agrees with that, but it's how I personally feel.

I agree, and I also know that it is a perfectly reasonable idea to consider adoption if you are not capabale of raising a child. It isn't like it was back in the days of Heidi, there are many many people who look to adopt children.

As far as birth control goes, it is never a good idea to use just one, at least two is much more effective.

[SineSwiper]

Personally, I think that if the parents get into a position where there is a pregnancy then I think the kid deserves to be born. In consensual relationships, no one is forced to have sex. If a pregnancy occurs in any case it's the fault/responsibility of the people who did it (myself included if my scare had turned into reality). Obviously, not everyone agrees with that, but it's how I personally feel.

Pregnancy is scary enough. Abortion leaves a last out of a potentially scarring a kid's life. More options of birth control definatelly need to be made available, since the ones we have are either too dangerous, too costly, too risky, too unrealistic, or just duplicates of other methods.