The Shrine

It's not supposed to be warm in Canada during January! Yet here we are with like 10 degree weather! (like 130 degrees Farinheight, I thnk, could be way off here though).

It's... mild here. Still plenty of snow packed up from plows.

Black Lotus wrote:It's... mild here. Still plenty of snow packed up from plows.

Ours is all but gone now

70F here in Ky.....craziness.

26°C, 78% humidity (ugh) here in Brisbane. God bless air conditioning.

Got up to 60F in Blacksburg, last week it got down to 9F at night.

But single data points (i.e., the weather for a single week) don't prove larger trends.

Not only has he invented the theory of Global Warming and The Internet, Al Gore has also ridden the Mighty Moon Whale.

I think you'll find, Kupek, that all of this anecdata proves without doubt the existance of global warming trends.

Kupek wrote:Got up to 60F in Blacksburg, last week it got down to 9F at night.

But single data points (i.e., the weather for a single week) don't prove larger trends.

No, the larger trends do. I'm wondering how many heat records have been broken not just this year but in the past 5 years. I know up here this year alone I've heard the term "record heat" at least 5 times.

Im pretty sure I remember last winter was a pretty warm one too..the trees even started budding really early. Then we had a short super cold spell which killed all the buds, and that was about it.

When I was a kid, you could pretty much guarantee each winter would bring a couple of snows with at least a foot...I dont remember anything like that recently.

I think the archives will show where I stand on evidence for global warming, so no point in going there. But I think it's careless to use it to explain local weather patterns when you don't know if those would or would have not happened in the absence of global warming.

It's about to thunderstorm here, and there have been reports of tornadoes in the counties just to the north.

And no, I think Global Warming is a sham.

Well, we can't blame everything on El Nino. Besides, our record hottest days have been broken about three or four times in the past decade, and the winters have indeed been mild in that time, too.

it's been snowing here....it never snows in the valley

Chris Hansbrough wrote:it's been snowing here....it never snows in the valley

Nuclear winter!!!!

SineSwiper wrote:Well, we can't blame everything on El Nino. Besides, our record hottest days have been broken about three or four times in the past decade, and the winters have indeed been mild in that time, too.

"Yo soy el nino. All other tropical storms bow before EL NINO. For those who don't hablo espanol, el nino is spanish for......the nino!"

Fuck El Nino as a staff, record label, and as a mother fuckin crew.
And if you want to be down with El Nino,
Then fuck you too.
Nino XL, fuck you too!
All you mother fuckers,
fuck you too!
All of y'all mother fuckers,
fuck you, die slow mother fucker.
My fo fo making sure all yo kids don't grow!

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/blix7 ... y1.gif">El Niño is spanish. It is the spanish word for child. Like all things spanish, it is dangerous.</a>

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/blix7 ... y1.gif">El Niño is spanish. It is the spanish word for child. Like all things spanish, it is dangerous.</a>

HAHAHAHA, I wonder how old this kid was? =P

Scientists, diplomats, McSalad Shakers, and George Bush Jr. If it wasn't for these four things, we would be able to kill people.

It snowed today.

IN BAHGDAD.

That's nonsense, but thanks for the bump Rent.

It's the truth! The teevee said so!

It actually did snow in Baghdad for the first time in like 100 years. Just shows how f'ed up our climate is.

On a side note..our trees had buds early again this year.

Our population, our civilization, is cause for a lot of pollutants being thrown into the air. Larger amounts than the shrinking greenery can handle.

To throw my two cents into here... the global warming "OMG SKY IS FALLING" campaign is the biggest racket in decades.

Do people have an affect on the climate? of course. Is global cooling and warming of the planet a regular occurance over the millenia? of course. Will this eco craze actually have an impact on the climate? not really.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people are deciding to buy/build better and cleaner cars, buy CFL lightbulbs, and such... but we had to resort to scare tactics in order to get people to do this.

The sky isn't falling, but everybody thinking that it is has finally gotten people to be a little environmentally minded. Do the ends justify the means? I don't know.

Seraphina wrote:It actually did snow in Baghdad for the first time in like 100 years. Just shows how f'ed up our climate is.

Not really. Let's assume that a day's weather is a single event. So that means we have 36,500 events. If it snows one day every 100 years in Baghdad, then it's reasonable to say it snows 0.003% of the time. We're surprised when extremely rare events happen, but they do happen sometimes. See paragraph five on down in section Warning Sign D7 in Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation. Again, single data points do not prove larger trends.

As for global warming itself, I'd rather not repeat myself, particularly since talking about science with people who fundamentally don't understand how it works has become perhaps the most frustrating kind of discussion I can participate in.

Tessian wrote:To throw my two cents into here... the global warming "OMG SKY IS FALLING" campaign is the biggest racket in decades.

Do people have an affect on the climate? of course. Is global cooling and warming of the planet a regular occurance over the millenia? of course. Will this eco craze actually have an impact on the climate? not really.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people are deciding to buy/build better and cleaner cars, buy CFL lightbulbs, and such... but we had to resort to scare tactics in order to get people to do this.

The sky isn't falling, but everybody thinking that it is has finally gotten people to be a little environmentally minded. Do the ends justify the means? I don't know.

I also want someone else to deal with it while I continue to live in a dream world.

Tessian wrote:To throw my two cents into here... the global warming "OMG SKY IS FALLING" campaign is the biggest racket in decades.

Do people have an affect on the climate? of course. Is global cooling and warming of the planet a regular occurance over the millenia? of course. Will this eco craze actually have an impact on the climate? not really.

Fine. Explain this:




Can you be so sure that this is a natural pattern? After all, we know that CO2 (and the other greenhouse gases) are directly tied together. The first part of the top graph is the natural pattern. The last part (and the bottom graph) is clearly a deviation of the pattern.

Before you go off spouting shit about water vapor, I already know. Water vapor is more prevalent in the atmosphere than CO2, and has a greater effect on global warming than the other gases. However, the other greenhouse gases are increased, which causes an increased temperature, which causes more water vapor to enter the atmosphere, etc. After all, if CO2 causes an increase in temperature, and say the temperature was 5 billion degrees F, wouldn't the oceans boil off? Same effect, but in a much less extreme way.

The alarming part of the whole thing is that this is an acceleration curve. So, what would take hundreds of thousands of years to do is taking mere years, and hell, we're already going past any levels that the planet has produced in recorded history.

Kupek wrote:

Seraphina wrote:It actually did snow in Baghdad for the first time in like 100 years. Just shows how f'ed up our climate is.

Not really. Let's assume that a day's weather is a single event. So that means we have 36,500 events. If it snows one day every 100 years in Baghdad, then it's reasonable to say it snows 0.003% of the time. We're surprised when extremely rare events happen, but they do happen sometimes. See paragraph five on down in section Warning Sign D7 in Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation. Again, single data points do not prove larger trends.

As for global warming itself, I'd rather not repeat myself, particularly since talking about science with people who fundamentally don't understand how it works has become perhaps the most frustrating kind of discussion I can participate in.

Then explain the fundamentals

I think a major problem with environmentalism right now is the political system. It is more effective in Europe due to proportional representation, the younger generation can have more confidence voting for the green party; because lets face it, the older generation is more interested in keeping gay people from marrying each other than the health and well being of 6 billion people when they're dead and gone. Europe currently has less than 2/5ths the output; while maintaining a higher standard of living and a stronger economy than North America.

Way to take me out of context, Sine. I never said we don't have an impact on the planet and things are worse because of us. What I was saying was that not only is our role exaggerated by gore & co, but the ability we have to reduce that impact is also very low. I'm glad people have started to become eco-friendly, but it's too little and too late, and the only way it'd even have a chance at making a difference is if we sacrificed our economies for it... and you KNOW that won't happen.

Dutch wrote:the older generation is more interested in keeping gay people from marrying each other

But I was told the degredation of our society is DIRECTLY linked the global warming! Gays being married emits just as much CO2 as a refinery!!

Tessian wrote:the only way it'd even have a chance at making a difference is if we sacrificed our economies for it... and you KNOW that won't happen.

This is where I disagree considering Europe's economy is larger than the US. Europe has 2/5ths the green house gas output of the US. In addition: Europe is increasing economy while decreasing green house gasses and other pollution. It is that specific people with specific resources in the US have a lot of influence in their government.

Dutch wrote:

Tessian wrote:the only way it'd even have a chance at making a difference is if we sacrificed our economies for it... and you KNOW that won't happen.

This is where I disagree considering Europe's economy is larger than the US. Europe has 2/5ths the green house gas output of the US. In addition: Europe is increasing economy while decreasing green house gasses and other pollution. It is that specific people with specific resources in the US have a lot of influence in their government.

US economy is MUCH more reliant on fossil fuels for their economy than any other country save a few. It goes back to the fact that the US has no public transportation system to really speak of outside of major cities whereas most other developed countries do. But that's a debate for another time... fact is it'd be a lot easier to cut down on emissions if people had the option of not owning their own transportation.

You are forgetting someone else-- China and India. They are kicking our ASSES in pollution but they just complain they're developing and not to touch them. China's economy is a bullet train spewing an enormous amount of pollutants and if anyone tries to slow it down the government may end up collapsing (many say that since China has taken away so many liberties from its people and promised them prosperity in return that if their economic growth slows they're fucked).

So please, let's not blame this all on the US-- there's plenty of blame to go around.

China and India also have 8-10 times the population of the US. China and India are a problem, but the US is still the major producer of pollution.

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Chi ... s_999.html

Dutch wrote:China and India also have 8-10 times the population of the US.

China and India are also developing nations and should not be held accountable to the same standards as the US.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:

Dutch wrote:China and India also have 8-10 times the population of the US.

China and India are also developing nations and should not be held accountable to the same standards as the US.

Maybe not the same exact standards-- but let's hold them accountable to A standard! That's why the Kyoto protocol was full of shit; it let China and India do whatever the fuck they wanted. "Developing" country my ass; there's only so many years you can play that card-- last I checked China was doing a lot better than the US. The fact that the US had a head start means worse for the US than China. Retrofitting a factory/plant to be less polluting is a lot more expensive and harder to do than just building a new one from scratch with that in mind.

It's like your parents telling you at 18 you have a 10pm curfew and hundreds of other rules and guideline.. but your 12 year old brother can do whatever the fuck he wants cause he's "developing" and they don't want to stunt his growth.

Tessian wrote:...last I checked China was doing a lot better than the US.

Hahaha! Do you actually believe this? What the fuck, man. By what possible metric is "China... doing a lot better than the US"? GDP per capita? Levels of poverty? Access to running water and eletricity?

Tessian wrote:The fact that the US had a head start means worse for the US than China. Retrofitting a factory/plant to be less polluting is a lot more expensive and harder to do than just building a new one from scratch with that in mind.

It might be cheaper to build a new factory or power plant than retrofit an existing one in the USA, although I'm not sure it's a safe assumption to make. But to build a new factory or power plant in China, rather than retrofit one in the US? The US has a massive and universal industrial support infrastructure. China doesn't.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:

Tessian wrote:...last I checked China was doing a lot better than the US.

Hahaha! Do you actually believe this? What the fuck, man. By what possible metric is "China... doing a lot better than the US"? GDP per capita? Levels of poverty? Access to running water and eletricity?

Note really sure about the whole country because China is quite vast, but Beijing and the Northern areas certainly do not give off the vibe of a developing nation; there are corporate buildings, malls, nice hotels and restaraunts, and stuff like that all over the place. It's a lot better off than anywhere down in Central America or the Carribean, for example.


Though, part of the problem in China is that Westerners keep building cheaper factories there. A lot of Japanese and American corporations are guilty of this. This probably won't be so much the case after a few more years as it seems like there will be a shift over to India at some point.

Last I heard, China is embracing pepple-bed reactors, so at least they have it going for them on that front. But their oil usage levels are skyrocketing. They are trying to learn from the US as their example, and we are a pretty fucking bad example.