The Shrine

Imakeholesinu wrote:

RentCavalier wrote:And then somebody more competent and more charismatic will take his place, and the problems will really begin.

....like who?

We'll find out. If Hillary Clinton gets the nomination, I can only shudder to think.

Hilary is just as stupid with games, but if she got the nomination it just means McCain will be our next president.

Tessian wrote:Hilary is just as stupid with games, but if she got the nomination it just means McCain will be our next president.

Yeah, and that's just what we need--another war-mongering idiot.

Though, to be fair, I have had a lot of affection for McCain in the past. But I'm sick of choosing between the lesser of two evils, to be honest.

RentCavalier wrote:

Tessian wrote:Hilary is just as stupid with games, but if she got the nomination it just means McCain will be our next president.

Yeah, and that's just what we need--another war-mongering idiot.

Though, to be fair, I have had a lot of affection for McCain in the past. But I'm sick of choosing between the lesser of two evils, to be honest.

You'll have to move to another country if you don't want that anymore, unfortunately. I never said I liked McCain, I'm just saying if Hilary gets the nominee then the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot. Thankfully she's almost definitely lost at this point

Tessian wrote:

RentCavalier wrote:

Tessian wrote:Hilary is just as stupid with games, but if she got the nomination it just means McCain will be our next president.

Yeah, and that's just what we need--another war-mongering idiot.

Though, to be fair, I have had a lot of affection for McCain in the past. But I'm sick of choosing between the lesser of two evils, to be honest.

You'll have to move to another country if you don't want that anymore, unfortunately. I never said I liked McCain, I'm just saying if Hilary gets the nominee then the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot. Thankfully she's almost definitely lost at this point

Obama has me about as optimistic as I can get.

Of course, what we REALLY need is Jesse Ventura as president.

RentCavalier wrote:Of course, what we REALLY need is Jesse Ventura as president. :thumbup:

It'll never happen. Politics left a bad taste in his mouth. In fact, he recommended to Arnold (who's a good friend of his) that he stay out of politics.

However, I've been extremely pleased with how Obama portrays himself. Every time I hear him speak, I like him more. Oddly enough, every time I heard McCain speak, I like him less, because he seems to come off more and more as a typical Republican bullshitter, rather than the straightshooter style he was in the past.

I'm at the point where I don't like any of the 3. I know I won't vote for Hilary, but if it comes down to McCain vs. Obama....who knows?

Ventura didn't even bother running for governor again for good reason. He knows that's about as high as he can go without sucking large dick and in his background (Navy Seal and wrestling), gay ain't exactly fully accepted (it's a commentary/joke, take it easy....). He got his governorship by going door to door but it's far different on a national basis. He woulda been eaten alive by short-sighted, old-boys-club media-bitches of both parties and you really can't escape constant negativity, particularly if the people reporting on politics don't want you there. People hear enough bad things, true or not, and they begin to believe it. This is the tactic Republicans have been using for decades and it works very well.

BTW, who's to say that an Obama-Clinton pairing ain't gonna happen? I think if they do that, they win easy. McCain's right-center alignment may actually do him well in the wake of the last 8 years of Bush 2: Bushed Harder. I've heard him talk about issues a couple of times and he seems far more liberal that what we've seen in the last 2 Republican presidents. That's exactly what the Republican party needs right now.

Lox wrote:I'm at the point where I don't like any of the 3. I know I won't vote for Hilary, but if it comes down to McCain vs. Obama....who knows?

But here's the question (and yes, I'm trying to create a debate over this): is it better to vote for someone you don't want 'cause you don't have a choice as opposed to not voting at all? Is the right NOT to vote a legitimate option?

For me, the latter for sure. I actually followed the last two elections (federal then provincial) here and decided that I couldn't stand any of them, that regardless of who got in I was gonna be fucked in the ass one way or the other. It didn't matter to me that maybe one party MIGHT have had enough courtesy to give me a reach around, I was still gonna get fucked in the ass, which I didn't want. So why should I support someone who's gonna do that?

That's basically what I'm dealing with now. Truthfully, my vote probably won't matter anyway. I can almost garauntee that Maryland's electoral votes will go to the Democratic candidate no matter what I do.

Lox wrote:That's basically what I'm dealing with now. Truthfully, my vote probably won't matter anyway. I can almost garauntee that Maryland's electoral votes will go to the Democratic candidate no matter what I do.

Yeah, that's pretty much the way it is my riding too, the Liberal lady has a lock. But the question still remains: is it better to not vote when you don't like either candidate than to vote for the lesser of evils? I say don't vote, it's your right not to vote as much as it is to vote.

Basically, until we get a "none of the above" option on the ballot (for tracking purposes only), there's arguably more of a reason not to vote in that situation than to vote for an evil. When you don't vote, you're also not a part of the problem. The problem being that the political system is broken and you're giving support to a candidate who you didn't want. By giving that person your support and supporting the system in general, you really can't complain over what that or any candidate does do 'cause you either voted for them or your indirectly supporting the system which allows these politicians to just do what they want.

Zeus wrote:McCain's right-center alignment may actually do him well in the wake of the last 8 years of Bush 2: Bushed Harder. I've heard him talk about issues a couple of times and he seems far more liberal that what we've seen in the last 2 Republican presidents. That's exactly what the Republican party needs right now.

Well, his stance on the war ain't popular.

Zeus wrote:But here's the question (and yes, I'm trying to create a debate over this): is it better to vote for someone you don't want 'cause you don't have a choice as opposed to not voting at all? Is the right NOT to vote a legitimate option?

The effectiveness of a protest requires numbers to work, and it requires some amount of coverage. Your protest to not vote isn't helping anything. Nobody cares, and nobody notices. Voter turnout is going to be the highest in decades, so you not voting is just going to hurt yourself.

I was pretty disappointed with how my state had these closed-party elections. I'm a registered Independent. So when I went to the voting booth this Tuesday, it really didn't mean shit. I mean, I got a voter card with two positions for judges, and I didn't know any of them. I basically just filled nothing out and gave the card back to the volunteer. (I don't vote on people based on their name alone.) The one primary election that I actually cared about, and I happened to re-register myself outside the Democratic party. I'm seriously considering jumping back.

Your right that a lone protest don't do shit, but what other choice do I have? Vote for a lesser of evil just because? Yeah, that's helping the matter. In Canada, people don't care to fight for what they believe in, they just bitch and complain and become drones. In the last election, we had a referendum vote for the first time in 80 YEARS. I was begging everyone I know and anyone who met me to vote "yes" simply because even though it wasn't a solution and was just small baby steps, it was still better than what we had (it's a little long to explain). The gov't even made a point of putting commercials on and sending a pamphlet to all registered voters TWICE explaining to them exactly what the vote was about.

Guess what happened? It was shot down by a 2-to-1 margin. Why? Because it was different and wasn't the perfect solution. In fact, if anything, it would probably take about 5 years for us to realize any real effects from it. The worst part is, with a 59% voter turnout, we had 11% of those people vote for a party (Green; no they're not just environmental nuts) which had no representation in the provincial parliament. That referendum woulda fixed that. That means that over 6% of the population voted and have as much representation as I do. Fucking sad.

The worst part? We told our government "yeah, you guys are molesting us regularly and ain't doin' jack shit while helping the corporations rape and pillage us and you know what? Keep doing a bang up job". You think we're gonna see another referendum in my lifetime? No chance

That proved to me that I'm a loner in terms of actually wanting to give my government a sense of accountability, albiet a tiny one. So I'm left with really two choices, vote for the lesser of evils or vote for no one. I think that the latter is the better choice.

Democracy was never about voting on what you wanted. Bills never got passed by writing down what you wanted. It was about compromise.

I want a president who cares enough about freedoms to make constitutional amendment that would ban any law that made it a crime to do a consensual act (drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc.). I want one that would force oil into an utility (like it fucking should be), and mandate a 50% tax credit for putting in solar panels and other green savers. I want one that would kick out all of the healthcare corporations and make medical care a human right. I want one that would change all of the speed limits to be based on what people actually drive, not what the govt wants us to drive. I want one that would remove the penny and dollar bill, and replace it with $1 and $2 coins with colored money. I want all traces of "god" removed from the government (and our money).

But, I'm not going to get that president. That president is called crazy and a lunatic before he even gets his foot in the campaign door. Hell, the first thing people cares about when somebody runs is what religion he's in. That's pretty fucking sad.

So, do I not vote? No, not really. I still vote. It's a slow process, but the more I vote, the more it will shift into a person that I truly like. Hell, for the first time, I get to vote for a president that isn't a complete bullshitter. I really like that.

Hold on, you actually think that the next president ain't a complete bullshitter? Who, McCain, Clinton, Obama? Obama may end up being the biggest bullshitter of them all, he seems to have a lot of people convinced that he's a decent guy. We'll see if he gets elected if he does even 1/3 of the "decent" stuff that's expected of him.

Sadly, Gore may have been the least bullshitter since Carter and he got SCREWED. Imagine how different things would be if the Republicans didn't steal the 2000 election? Dubya wouldn't even have run in 2004.

At the end of the day, I can't just give my vote to someone who I disagree with on 80-90% of the issues just because they're the lesser of evils. And I just can't give my support to a system which does not have any level of accountability. I can't have both being below a level of reasonable acceptability and in good conscious vote. Not only would I supporting a candidate who ain't gonna do anything I believe in, I'm also supporting a system which breeds candidates like that. That's just wrong to me.

It may mean that I never vote but I will still follow every election and hope that one day I get a candidate who isn't a waste of skin and bones and I can at least justify my vote. I will always have a sliver of hope even though I know deep down it won't happen in my lifetime. But hey, I'm a stubborn Arab, I'll keep trying regardless.

Zeus wrote:Hold on, you actually think that the next president ain't a complete bullshitter? Who, McCain, Clinton, Obama? Obama may end up being the biggest bullshitter of them all, he seems to have a lot of people convinced that he's a decent guy. We'll see if he gets elected if he does even 1/3 of the "decent" stuff that's expected of him.

Sadly, Gore may have been the least bullshitter since Carter and he got SCREWED. Imagine how different things would be if the Republicans didn't steal the 2000 election? Dubya wouldn't even have run in 2004.

At the end of the day, I can't just give my vote to someone who I disagree with on 80-90% of the issues just because they're the lesser of evils. And I just can't give my support to a system which does not have any level of accountability. I can't have both being below a level of reasonable acceptability and in good conscious vote. Not only would I supporting a candidate who ain't gonna do anything I believe in, I'm also supporting a system which breeds candidates like that. That's just wrong to me.

It may mean that I never vote but I will still follow every election and hope that one day I get a candidate who isn't a waste of skin and bones and I can at least justify my vote. I will always have a sliver of hope even though I know deep down it won't happen in my lifetime. But hey, I'm a stubborn Arab, I'll keep trying regardless.

That's why we keep the smart people in canada. Ignorance here is (political) bliss.

I wish we were more like Europeans in the sense that we fight our government when they're attempting to fuck us in the ass. In a lot of ways, Canadians are idiots when it comes to politics, a big part of it the fact that so many of us still consider ourselves to be from other cultures. We're not "Canadian" so much as "Arab" or "Greek" so we don't have a sense of unity in our society. This leads to us not caring about our communities or neighbourhoods and leads to a lack of real caring (and subsequent insistence for accountability) in our political system

Zeus wrote:Hold on, you actually think that the next president ain't a complete bullshitter? Who, McCain, Clinton, Obama? Obama may end up being the biggest bullshitter of them all, he seems to have a lot of people convinced that he's a decent guy. We'll see if he gets elected if he does even 1/3 of the "decent" stuff that's expected of him.

Really? Like what? Cite previous evidence, not what you predict may happen.

Zeus wrote:I wish we were more like Europeans in the sense that we fight our government when they're attempting to fuck us in the ass. In a lot of ways, Canadians are idiots when it comes to politics, a big part of it the fact that so many of us still consider ourselves to be from other cultures. We're not "Canadian" so much as "Arab" or "Greek" so we don't have a sense of unity in our society. This leads to us not caring about our communities or neighbourhoods and leads to a lack of real caring (and subsequent insistence for accountability) in our political system

The United States:
1977: James Dobson, author of 1969 pro-spanking book Dare To Discipline, founds Focus on the Family in Arcadia, Calif. Focus will move to Colorado Springs, Colo., in 1991, become America's wealthiest fundamentalist ministry, and spearhead the campaign against gay marriage.
1978: Gay activist Harvey Milk, elected to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors in 1977, is assassinated on Nov. 27 (along with Mayor George Moscone) by right-wing religious zealot Dan White, a former city supervisor who had resigned in protest after the board passed a gay-rights ordinance.
1979: The Rev. Jerry Falwell founds the Moral Majority, a national effort to stimulate the fundamentalist vote and elect Christian Right candidates. Early fundraising appeals include a "Declaration of War" on homosexuality.
1980: Paul Cameron, former psychology instructor at University of Nebraska, begins publishing pseudo-scientific pamphlets "proving" that gay people commit more serial murders, molest more children, and intentionally spread diseases.
1981: Moral Majority allies in Congress propose the Family Protection Act, which would bar giving federal funds to "any organization that suggests that homosexuality can be an acceptable alternative lifestyle."
1982: The U.S. Department of Defense issues a policy stating that homosexuality is "incompatible" with military service. Almost 17,000 gay soldiers will be discharged during the 1980s, though a 1989 Defense Department study will find gay recruits "just as good or better" than heterosexuals.
1983: Pat Buchanan, communications director for President Ronald Reagan, calls AIDS, first identified in 1981, "nature's revenge on gay men."
1984: The Coalition on Revival is founded to promote "Christian government" in the U.S. and to agree on theological tenets, including anti-gay principles, that fundamentalists can rally around.
1985: Addressing the annual Conservative Political Action Conference, Paul Cameron uses the AIDS crisis to suggest that "the extermination of homosexuals" might become necessary.
1986: At the first Congressional hearings on anti-gay violence, Kathleen Sarris of Indianapolis tells of being stalked and assaulted by a "Christian soldier" who held her at gunpoint, beat and raped her for three hours, explaining that "he was acting for God; that what he was doing to me was God's revenge on me because I was a 'queer' and getting rid of me would save children."
1987: Boston's Gay Community News publishes a satire of anti-gay propaganda, beginning: "Tremble, Hetero Swine! We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lives. We will raise vast private armies ... to defeat ... the family unit." Anti-gay groups seize on the article as proof of a "secret homosexual agenda."
1988: After a ferocious campaign by the fundamentalist Oregon Citizens Alliance (OCA), Oregon voters overturn their governor's executive order banning anti-gay discrimination in state hiring.
1989: U.S. Rep. William Dannemeyer (R-Calif.) publishes a landmark anti-gay tome, Shadow in the Land: Homosexuality in America. Calling lesbians and gay men "the ultimate enemy," Dannemeyer accuses straight people of "surrendering to this growing army without a shot," and predicts gay rights will "plunge our people, and indeed the entire West, into a dark night of the soul that could last hundreds of years."
1990: University of Colorado football coach Bill McCartney founds Promise Keepers, which holds all-male stadium revivals promoting "traditional masculinity" throughout the 1990s. McCartney calls homosexuals "a group of people who don't reproduce, yet want to be compared with people who do reproduce," and says, "Homosexuality is an abomination of Almighty God."
1991: Pat Robertson founds the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), run by Christian Right attorney Jay Sekulow. ACLJ will be instrumental in fighting gay marriage, calling it a cancerous "perversion" that "directly attacks the family, which is the most vital cell in society."
1992: Colorado voters approve Amendment 2, overturning municipal laws protecting lesbians and gay men from discrimination.
1993: The battle over gay marriage is ignited when the Hawaii Supreme Court rules that denying same-sex couples marriage licenses violates "basic human rights" guaranteed in the state constitution, unless the state legislature can show a "compelling reason" to prevent gay marriage.
1994: More than 40 fundamentalist groups, led by Focus on the Family, hold a summit in Colorado to coordinate a "special rights" argument to oppose gay rights. This strategy is also promoted by the Traditional Values Coalition's "Gay Rights, Special Rights," a 40-minute video claiming gay rights will erode the civil rights of African Americans.
1995: The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party, by fundamentalist activists Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams, claims gays weren't victimized in the Holocaust, but instead helped mastermind the extermination of Jews (see story, p. 18).
1996: In Romer v. Evans, the U.S. Supreme Court rules Colorado's Amendment 2 (see 1992) unconstitutional by a 6-3 vote.
1997: Ellen DeGeneres' character on the TV sitcom "Ellen" comes out as a lesbian, initiating protests and boycotts of sponsors led by Donald Wildmon and Jerry Falwell, who calls the actor "Ellen Degenerate."
1998: A coalition of fundamentalist groups led by Coral Ridge Ministries sponsors "Truth in Love," a million-dollar advertising campaign promoting "ex-gay ministries," which use discredited psychological methods to "cure" gay people.
1999: Vermont Democratic Gov. Howard Dean signs a law sanctioning same-sex civil unions, entitling gay couples to marital rights and benefits. Anti-gay leader Gary Bauer calls it "an unmitigated disaster" that is "worse than terrorism."
2000: The U.S. Supreme Court rules 5-4 that the Boy Scouts of America can continue to ban gay scoutmasters. Anti-gay activists like Robert Knight of the Family Research Council use the scouting controversy to revive anti-gay "child molester" propaganda.
2001: On "The 700 Club" two days after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Jerry Falwell blames the tragedy on "the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle." Host Pat Robertson responds: "Well, I totally concur."
2002: The Rev. Michael Bray, a convicted abortion clinic bomber and leading advocate of murdering abortion doctors, praises Saudi Arabia for beheading three gay men on New Year's Day. "Let us give thanks," Bray proclaims. "Let us welcome these tools of purification. Open the borders! Bring in some agents of cleansing."
2003: Alan Sears, head of the Alliance Defense Fund, co-authors The Homosexual Agenda, a book that asserts gay activists' ultimate goal is "silencing" conservative Christians. Sears also accuses cartoon character SpongeBob SquarePants of being gay.
2004: Constitutional amendments prohibiting same-sex marriage pass by wide margins in all 11 states, including Ohio and Oregon. Anti-gay groups meet in Washington, D.C., to plan for 10 more state initiatives in 2005.
More details here...

Canada
2004: Canada became the fourth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide with the approval of the Civil Marriage Act.

We are idiots. Americans are all idiots. Just keep the booze flowing. We won't care anymore. Bend us over, forget the KY, just shove it right in the pooper and proceed to start a pounding motion.

This society is absolutely brain dead. For once I wish I lived somewhere else.

Power breeds corruption. Shame on every public official who thinks they are out for the good of the people when in reality they are just in it for themselves.



I've had a little...to much to drink

SineSwiper wrote:

Because I've never exited a plane under sniper fire and lived to tell about it?