The Shrine

I'm linking this here because it is TERRIFYING.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/189763

It's about an extremely conservative Christian movement intended to restore women's submissiveness to men and God, mostly spearheaded by women, who believe God has mandated them to have as many children as possible in order to make them like "arrows" in "God's quiver" to "smite His enemies". As they have interpreted that for the modern world, their objective is to try to grow conservative Christianity's power.and influence by having lots and lots of babies, raising them all to be extremely conservative Christians, and swelling the voting ranks enough to fill Congress with their viewpoints, eventually "reclaiming fallen cities" like San Francisco.

Lox, can you say anything here to help reassure me here that I shouldn't be horrified down to the tips of my socks? Does anyone else feel the same way?

Replay wrote:I'm linking this here because it is TERRIFYING.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/189763

It's about an extremely conservative Christian movement intended to restore women's submissiveness to men and God, mostly spearheaded by women, who believe God has mandated them to have as many children as possible in order to make them like "arrows" in "God's quiver" to "smite His enemies". As they have interpreted that for the modern world, their objective is to try to grow conservative Christianity's power.and influence by having lots and lots of babies, raising them all to be extremely conservative Christians, and swelling the voting ranks enough to fill Congress with their viewpoints, eventually "reclaiming fallen cities" like San Francisco.

Lox, can you say anything here to help reassure me here that I shouldn't be horrified down to the tips of my socks? Does anyone else feel the same way?

these people are full of shit. it is not a womans duty to make babies. babies are annoying. It's a womans duty to stay in the kitchen and keep feeding me sammiches. these women are crazy if they think otherwise. then again that's what you get when women try to understand gods will.

I've seen the show before. It's actually interesting just to see her manage all this. The family clearly has money, which helps. They're not financially suffering by any means. They seem like good parents from what I can tell.

As for the Quiverell idea-people come up with schemes all the time that they think will be clever but are actually stupid. No one thinks like that where I go to church or in my circle of Christian friends if that makes you feel better. It's probably nothing to worry about. Like I said, people think they're smarter than they are usually. My wife enjoys the show and respects them as parents, but she by no means wants to have more than a couple kids.

The plan doesn't even make sense really. For one, raising kids in a Christian home by no means guarantees they will believe the same thing. I have many, many friends who grew up in the church and have nothing to do with it now. It all depends on the kid's personality. Secondly, I think there are plenty of other places where many, many more kids are being born so this won't even slide the scales any. There are better ways of evangelizing besides trying to breed non-Christians out of the world.

It reminds me of Braveheart where Longshanks wants to breed the Scots out so he brings back marriage night rights for his English soldiers.

That actually really helps. I very much respect your opinion as a moderate Christian, especially more so in contrast to this kind of madness.

I knew you all were still out there! As usual, apparently, the marginally psychotic are the ones who get most of the press. I give my unqualified admiration and appreciation to you for not trying to breed an army of Christian warriors to take over San Francisco.

And Chris, good job on raising the level of women's rights in the debate from 4000 B.C. to at least 1850 or so.

There's a huge difference between Octomom and the Duggars. The Duggars are paying for their own kids. We are paying for the Octomom's kids.

I do not agree with having so many children, but if they can support them financially and emotionally. I don't care. However I do not see how children living with so many brothers and sisters can grow to their full potential.

I actually watch John and Kate plus 8 on a regular basis. I like how they seem real..arguments and all.

Seraphina wrote:There's a huge difference between Octomom and the Duggars. The Duggars are paying for their own kids. We are paying for the Octomom's kids.

I do not agree with having so many children, but if they can support them financially and emotionally. I don't care.

Oh, definitely. If parents can support their kids, it's their right to have as many as they want. Octomom is a totally different story.

I like John & Kate + 8 also. And with them, they were only trying to go for a 3rd and got the 6 extra. haha Now, that's a surprise.

Now I don't much about John & Kate + 8 (again, I insist on some measurable form of quality in my entertainment), but didn't she have invitro for multiples and actually had plans for the show early on or something? Hardly sounds like an "accident"

She had in vitro for both sets of kids. I did wonder when all the news was going on about Octomom how she was implanted with (at least) 6 embryos and no one said anything about that being abnormal, but when Octomom had 8 implanted everyone was saying they only implant 2 or 3 tops.


I've never heard she had plans for the show before hand. I know it started with some 1 hour specials about them and the kids, and grew into a show.

They didn't have any plans for the show until they were surprised with the 6 kids and were then approached about doing a couple of specials about it. They did envitro for both pregnancies, but there's always the possibility that none of the embryos can take, too. So I think they were really hoping for just 1 and ended up with 6.

I have noooooo problems with anyone having any number of kids they want and can afford as long as they are not raising them as "arrows" to "smite" anyone in particular.

God Bless all these families and the rabbit-bred progeny of their loins.

You don't fucking implant 6 embryos hoping for one to catch. You're hoping for multiples at that point. If you need invitro to begin with, you're not gonna risk more than 2 or 3 eggs, it's fucking stupid. It's not based on volume, at some point too many risks all of them. That's why they generally limit it to 2 or 3.

Edit: I looked it up to clarify. With John & Kate, they used artificial insemination (which I believe is different from in-vitro) and fertility shots because of a condition she has where she doesn't ovulate. And according to them, they were hoping not to have multiples.

Zeus wrote:You don't fucking implant 6 embryos hoping for one to catch. You're hoping for multiples at that point. If you need invitro to begin with, you're not gonna risk more than 2 or 3 eggs, it's fucking stupid. It's not based on volume, at some point too many risks all of them. That's why they generally limit it to 2 or 3.

Are you talking about anyone in particular or just fertility practices in general?

I think a lot of the more religious mothers probably do it au natural, the way grandmama intended. They feel that interfering in any way with the reproductive process - birth control, implantation, whatever - is against God's will.

My Catholic great-grandmother had 14 kids. When she died, she was nearly venerated at her funeral, as I understand it, because "she had all the kids God wanted her to have". I never knew her, but God Bless her anyway, because otherwise I wouldn't be here and raising 14 kids is utterly Herculean no matter what era you live in.

However, as far as I know, my great-grandmama was raising those kids to help on the rural farm my grandma grew up on in Michigan (I've been there, and it's delightful, but definitely the place where having 14 kids probably really helped out around the house), not to pack the U.S. full of people who thought like her and wanted their kids to be "like arrows". I don't know. I never knew her and I'm sure she studied the Bible, but she sure didn't raise my grandmother to regard herself as some sort of holy weapon.

It's not the Duggans or any other TV family that I'm concerned about - I'm sure they've been thoroughly vetted or they'd never have been given the shows. I haven't seen anyone offering Octomom a reality deal yet (and if any of you happen to know any reality TV producers, please, for the love of God, don't show them this blog post). It's the authors and the martial language they're using to describe reproductive rights. The emphasis on "God's enemies" in particular scares the shit out of me, because I just happen to fall down in that category for many of them.

Though, I have to say, unless these are the kinds of churchgoers who semi-regularly get in street brawls like I sadly do and practice martial arts six days a week like I have been lately, it might actually take fourteen of them to actually take me down. I hope they raise them big and strong if they intend to take that particular verse very seriously.

Worrying about the Quiverfull movement making a difference is like worrying about a giant asteroid striking the Earth: yeah, if it actually happened we'd be in big trouble, but the chances are so small it's a waste of your time. There are less devastating, but far more likely, things out there.

Kupek wrote:Worrying about the Quiverfull movement making a difference is like worrying about a giant asteroid striking the Earth: yeah, if it actually happened we'd be in big trouble, but the chances are so small it's a waste of your time. There are less devastating, but far more likely, things out there.

Like the lack of morals in our society? (I haven't forgotten just haven't had the time to make a proper post; like others I know..... :-)

Mental - in general.

Better arrows than bombs.

I would be worried that in their quest to become "arrows" some of them might advocate for more bombs. Some of these people are the "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb" Iran types.

I have little respect for the Duggars, honestly. Yes, they are rich enough to have as many kids as they have, which means I respect them more than Octomom, but having 18 kids is signs of a serious problem that is damaging these kids.

One, she, and all of these other Quiverfull nutjobs are addicted to pregnancy and/or new children in general. They use the agenda as a excuse. I've known a couple (real hardcore 100% bible Christians) that believed in reversing a woman's place in the workplace and back into the family, and they actually have some decent arguments, but many people like that would never go to this extreme.

Two, these kids have no individuality. They are a sea of children, lost in the bigger family. Hell, even this Quiverfull belief treats them as an "army", training them to all believe in the same thing and think the same way. When you have that many kids, the brothers and sisters are more of the parents than the mom and dad.

So, now knowing that they are a part of this group means I have even less respect for them.

I do like Jon+Kate, though, for the same reasons mentioned by others. The multiples weren't planned, and they had the sensibility to stop afterwords. They act like normal people, not crazy rich Christian nutjobs. And they try to maintain their individuality, by separating them from the family sometimes (errands runs, each kid having a special day, etc.).

Also, another point. I'm getting tired of this ever increasing blurring between "having faith" and a lack of personal accountability. Having a child is not "God's Will". It's two people fucking, and a sperm winning a lottery. For most people, getting pregnant isn't all that hard. Believing that family planning and protection/contraception is "the mother of abortion" is taking levels of indirection too far out.

The faith argument gets taken to extremes at many different levels. Get hit by a car? It was God's Will. Was your life saved in the hospital? It was God's Will. Blow yourself up to kill hundreds of people? It was God's Will.

No, you stepped in front of the car. No, doctors and medical technology saved your life (and thanks for not appreciating their hard work). No, you were brainwashed by extremists and/or already crazy.

When you having sex a lot and magically have babies that you can't handle, it's not God's Will. It's YOUR fault! Quit trying to blame God for your own lack of personal responsibility.

Faith is not a super glue that you can fill into any gap that you so choose. Sometimes believing that it's "God's Will" is actually not God's Will. At what point does everything you do become an excuse to interject faith?

God gave you free will for a reason. Exercise it!

FYI-- The Duggars do NOT support themselves completely. I don't know how much, but their crazy church congregation gives a good bit in donations too.

What, you thought 1 man could support nearly 20 people by himself? They're just a successful version of the octomom... as long as you have the kids one at a time nobody gets angry and the money keeps rolling in.

Wikipedia wrote: The Duggars now say their income is derived from the commercial properties they own. The Duggars claim they live debt-free, which Jim Bob has said is "the fruit of Jim Sammons' Financial Freedom Seminar" he attended years ago. However, charity and donations of food and household appliances provide in large part for their lifestyle. Their large house was completed on January 20, 2006 with aid from Discovery Networks and corporate sponsors.

Man, I have a tendency to really shut up these religious arguments.

No, I'm just still too terrified out of my socks to post.

I swear, I really might start living a "good Christian life", just because if I don't, in twenty years one of these fine-art piano-playing kids will get fired, snap, and go looking for liberals to shoot.