The Shrine

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/us/07mcnamara.html

If you don't know who he is, and you're American, you should. Before Zeus can say it, watch Fog of War. Also read The Best and the Brightest.

One of the smartest men I've ever heard speak. He got a bad rap for a long time but man, that guy was fucking smart as hell. And he accomplished much more than many of us could ever dream of.

If you haven't seen Fog of War yet, it's your loss.

He also did more damage than any of us ever will. Which is why he is so unusual and worth listening to. Most people in positions of power that end up doing harm, even when trying to do good, rationalize their actions. He didn't. He was unusually self-conscious and publicly introspective about what mistakes he made.

Kupek wrote:He also did more damage than any of us ever will. Which is why he is so unusual and worth listening to. Most people in positions of power that end up doing harm, even when trying to do good, rationalize their actions. He didn't. He was unusually self-conscious and publicly introspective about what mistakes he made.

Yeah, that's why that movie was so fascinating

Compare him to Rumsfeld, except Rumsfeld isn't going to public talk about how the Iraq War was a bad idea.

SineSwiper wrote:Compare him to Rumsfeld, except Rumsfeld isn't going to public talk about how the Iraq War was a bad idea.

Major difference: WWII was a real war

Uh, Zeus, McNamara was the commander of our forces in Vietnam...not WWII. Actually, more like the strategic architect of our strategy, as far as I know, maybe not the commander per se.

But you had to know that, right? What do his mistakes have to do with WWII? He wouldn't have been highly placed enough in the command structure back then to have really fucked up that badly.

And, Sine, Rumsfeld will never, but ever own up to how badly he slagged our military in his zeal to implement the "RMA" and fire anyone who dissented. He cost us a lot of good generals who may or may not ever want to come back. The problem with the kind of mentality that did the things he did is that he did them precisely because he's not capable of admitting that he's human or that other people are as smart as he is.

McNamara was Secretary of Defense under Kennedy and Johnson, and is widely regarded as the architect of the Vietnam war. He resigned/was fired after he told Johnson he felt the war was unwinnable.

In WWII, McNamara was in the Army Air Force, where, among other things, he chose bombing targets. McNamara is on record saying that if we had lost WWII, him and others would have been tried as war criminals.

Zeus wrote:Major difference: WWII was a real war

Kupek wrote:McNamara was Secretary of Defense under Kennedy and Johnson, and is widely regarded as the architect of the Vietnam war. He resigned/was fired after he told Johnson he felt the war was unwinnable.

I blame Johnson more than anybody. Kennedy had a backout plan, and it only started about a few weeks before he was shot. Johnson essentially fucked everything up afterwards.

SineSwiper wrote:

Zeus wrote:Major difference: WWII was a real war

Fail on what, that McNamara was involved in WWII? I wasn't talking about him as Secretary of Defense.

SineSwiper wrote:

Kupek wrote:McNamara was Secretary of Defense under Kennedy and Johnson, and is widely regarded as the architect of the Vietnam war. He resigned/was fired after he told Johnson he felt the war was unwinnable.

I blame Johnson more than anybody. Kennedy had a backout plan, and it only started about a few weeks before he was shot. Johnson essentially fucked everything up afterwards.

You're kidding me, right? You honestly think it was LBJ who made those decisions?

Replay wrote:Uh, Zeus, McNamara was the commander of our forces in Vietnam...not WWII. Actually, more like the strategic architect of our strategy, as far as I know, maybe not the commander per se.

But you had to know that, right? What do his mistakes have to do with WWII? He wouldn't have been highly placed enough in the command structure back then to have really fucked up that badly.

And, Sine, Rumsfeld will never, but ever own up to how badly he slagged our military in his zeal to implement the "RMA" and fire anyone who dissented. He cost us a lot of good generals who may or may not ever want to come back. The problem with the kind of mentality that did the things he did is that he did them precisely because he's not capable of admitting that he's human or that other people are as smart as he is.

Yes I knew that. Mistakes? Well, none as a commander or anything. He was just one of the guys who decided how best to attempt to wipe out an entire nation of people in what may be one of the most brutal and blatant attempts at genocide we have ever seen. He was a big part of the brains behind the strategy on the execution of the plan. Not exactly something you advertise and tell your grandchildren about.

But no, he didn't run the war like Rumsfield did with Iraq. I just used that to basically say "the Iraqi War was a real war like WW2 was". The Iraqi Wars were both a farce. Vietnam was a product of the times and there were HUGE mistakes there. And he certainly was right about that, it was unwinnable and an enormous mistake by the US in general in how they perceived and executed the war.

There was the one story he told in Fog of War where he sat down with one of the leaders of the Nothern Vietnam army and was told that America thought it was fighting a territorial war whereas the Vietnamese felt like they were fighting for their way of life and would have fought down to the very last person. You can see his reaction in the film even as he's retelling the story and how it just kind of smacked him upside the head and set him straight. He and the president's braintrust had completely misunderstood their enemy which is what led to so many mistakes and misjudgements in that war (including getting involved in the first place). It was a very powerful moment for him and came across that way in the film. That's what makes the movie so damned good. His viewpoint and his way of telling it are just absolutely fascinating.

Incidentally, it was that understanding of the enemy which they actually did have with Russians which is what prevented the Bay of Pigs.

His involvement with the military in any capacity certainly leave something to be desired, huh?

Zeus wrote:You're kidding me, right? You honestly think it was LBJ who made those decisions?

Did you not see Fog of War? I mean granted, consider the source, but McNamara claimed that LBJ had a huge push in winning the war, no matter what the costs. Hell, LBJ more or less started the war. Kennedy jumped into a revolutionary effort, and though against his knowledge, had cause the assassination of the President of South Vietnam. But, LBJ really started the war as it was known throughout history. Just look up the Wikipedia article on it.

I have to say that both Kennedy's and LBJ's stance on foreign policy was absolutely horrible. I mean the double-standard with the Cuba Missile Crisis was obvious, but Kennedy continued to endanger the American people, refusing to stand down on a hypocrisy.

SineSwiper wrote:

Zeus wrote:You're kidding me, right? You honestly think it was LBJ who made those decisions?

Did you not see Fog of War? I mean granted, consider the source, but McNamara claimed that LBJ had a huge push in winning the war, no matter what the costs. Hell, LBJ more or less started the war. Kennedy jumped into a revolutionary effort, and though against his knowledge, had cause the assassination of the President of South Vietnam. But, LBJ really started the war as it was known throughout history. Just look up the Wikipedia article on it.

I have to say that both Kennedy's and LBJ's stance on foreign policy was absolutely horrible. I mean the double-standard with the Cuba Missile Crisis was obvious, but Kennedy continued to endanger the American people, refusing to stand down on a hypocrisy.

Sorry, perhaps I should rephrase that:

Do you honestly think any president in the last 40 years has made a decision?