The Shrine

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?secti ... id=6933249

quoth the Dipshit wrote:Frago believes he did nothing wrong. The emails did not originate with him and he said they were merely jokes; jokes using the "N" word and one where Michelle Obama is paid to pose nude in National Geographic.

You know, in an era where some racial tension incidents are so blurry and gray-area and hard to pick a clear villain out of (i.e., the Gates-Obama-Cambridge police incident), it's good to know that there are still some good old-fashioned abominable unreconstructed bigots out there. It does away with all that pesky doubt about whether or not this guy is a piece of shit, for instance. That's the First Lady, you assbag.

Sadly, this is about par for the course for Fresno and Central Valley Californian towns. The Central Valley towns in California have temperatures reminiscent of the Sahara, yet the vast majority of the population is blind-you-with-sunglasses-on white, and not especially tolerant. Prussian Blue (the two adorable little girls singing songs in homage to the Third Reich, a few years ago) were from Bakersfield, which has a similar situation. Makes me all very sad.

Tony Homo. Also:

George Carlin wrote:There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryer or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know they're not racist. Their Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know they're black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-fucker myself. Don't bother my ass. Their only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country.

I'm sorry, "nigger" is too unreconstructed for me. And the National Geographic joke is just beyond the pale.

Besides which, what are you trying to bring up with "Tony Homo"? I didn't like it then, I don't like it now, but I don't bring it up anymore because the majority opinion here has decided anti-gay slurs are acceptable for the main discourse. I have no desire to become a pariah again, so I leave it alone, but as I've noted before, I don't particularly find "homo" to be a terribly enlightening word either. Like I said at one point, I think the fact that some vast majority of our country still reaches for "faggot" when they need a stock phrase to demean someone with is obnoxious.

To anyone reading this response, read this entire post before you go on a rant. Don't just read a part of it, get all emotional, and start blasting off making yourself look like an idiot. It's not what you think.

The reason that anti-gay (male, not female; it's a little different it seems with lesbians) slurs are acceptable pretty much everywhere, not just here, is because most people truly, honestly don't "like" it and feel uncomfortable at the notion. This is my observation of the people I've been in contact with, not an opinion. I personally don't fucking care what your orientation is, I take you for the person you are. I have worked with many gay people and have had gay friends. Not my cup of tea, but it's their choice. Ain't no reflection on the person.

Why? I don't really know, but I have a theory: it's biological. One of the biggest misconceptions people have is that we're very far removed from our animalistic instincts when it actually drives the vast majority of our behaviour. For men, it's not "natural" and thus not very acceptable. Not even for pleasure or recreational purposes as is more acceptable with gay women (not many guys will say that it's not pleasurable to watch two hot women go at it). It also means one guy ain't in control or "expressing his manliness" and being submissive. For women, it's for different reasons. Men are viewed - consciously or not - as a symbol of strength, stemming from procreation purposes (ie. stronger you are, strong your seed appears to be and the better you can provide; unless you have money, that's where you can become a great provider). That's why taller, "stronger" men are more attractive than smaller, "wimpier" ones (sans the money factor). Seeing a man be submissive (ie as the receiver) is not appealing.

Because of that, the male gay terms are viewed as very, very demeaning since it's really not acceptable to most people. That's why I think those terms carry more weight than calling someone a "fuck" or "bastard". Heck, I use the term "that's gay" all the time but that don't mean that I think any less of gay people as people. It's just something I personally find unappealing and wouldn't never want to do myself.

But when it comes to gay women, it ain't the same. Women are supposed to be submissive from a "natural" point of view and their attractiveness comes from curves or breasts (for procreation purposes) without symbols of strength.

SineSwiper wrote:Tony Homo. Also:

George Carlin wrote:There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryer or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know they're not racist. Their Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know they're black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-fucker myself. Don't bother my ass. Their only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country.

The context was racist you dipshit.

Eric wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:Tony Homo. Also:

George Carlin wrote:There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryer or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know they're not racist. Their Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know they're black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-fucker myself. Don't bother my ass. Their only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country.

The context was racist you dipshit.

Are you referring to Sine or Carlin?

Zeus wrote:

Eric wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:Tony Homo. Also:

The context was racist you dipshit.

Are you referring to Sine or Carlin?

Sine. The National...the Obama joke!

Eric wrote:Sine. The National...the Obama joke!

Just clarifying

Not only was the context racist, his explanation was lame: "I was just forwarding an email!"

I like Carlin some of the time, but that riff of his misses what I think is the key point of racial slurs: they may be "just words," but we all know their meaning, and we can clearly recognize when they are used hatefully. When a comedian stands on stage and lists all of the racial slurs he knows, they clearly are "just words." But when we encounter them out in the real world, they're usually not.

For the record, the thought of having sex with another man makes me uncomfortable, but I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, and I think doing so encourages and/or endorses homophobia. But I also pick my battles, and it's just not worth my time to press the issue here.

I'm not sure if homophobia and anti-gay slurs are really even comparable to racial slurs. I get that using either shits on the people they're directed at but the roots of both of them go in different directions, besides the difference between sex and origins.

Furthermore, calling them just words is a certain brand of arrogance that stems from someone never being hatefully called them in a moment of fear.

That said, they better get this ass to resign because this type of racism is exactly what makes non-whites feel like outsiders wherever we go in most of the United States. And forwarding an e-mail with a joke is the exact same goddamned thing as retelling a joke you heard in a bar at the water cooler with the 'dudes' the next morning. These people run our country and they think that racism does not effect their ability to lead? Wow.

I agree with Kup. Most straight men do find the notion physically repulsive, probably the same way that gay men find the notion of having sex with straight women. I just wish people didn't assume their personal standards applied to others.

To respond to you, Zeus, yes, I think a lot of people who use the term use it openly because they genuinely feel homosexuality is an abomination. Part of the problem - a more undiscussed part - is because, in situations like prison, men use sex with other men as a means of violence, coercion, power and domination. So it has become associated with humiliation and subservience in the minds of many straight men, though I find it odd that that's the first thing they go to when it comes to discussing it. I do believe straight men are possibly more concerned with power and position than gay men, maybe because women are physically attracted to men with the power and position to provide for children.

There is also the problem that a lot of the more fundamentalist parts of America have no direct experience with homosexuality other than pedophile priests. They literally think, as a result, that all homosexual men are pedophiles. That kind of misinformation and superstition disturbs me, but then again, fundamentalism of any kind sort of disturbs me anyway, as intolerance and fundamentalism go hand in hand.

What I do find kind of surprising is how often many homophobic straight men clown their friends by saying "suck my dick" or endless variations on the same thing, over and over again. With some of the gamers I've played with on Warcraft 3 Ventrilo channels, it's endless. Every day, every time I came on. Privately I find myself thinking they sound so absurdly gay that if they were conscious of it, and if it weren't so acceptable to act like a dumbass, they'd be embarassed beyond belief.

Anyway, it's not like people here have been on a tip to use demeaning language here lately, I haven't seen anyone say "gay" or anything else in months if not more than a year (since I came back), and if anyone has I certainly haven't noticed it. I certainly believe you all now that you're not homophobic, having had some more experience with genuine "kill all the faggots" homophobes...man, those folks are frightening.

Kupek wrote:But I also pick my battles, and it's just not worth my time to press the issue here.

Yes, we know :-)

Calling them just words is how you destroy any meaning they may have. It's only if you care about the intent of that person do those words carry any meaning. My mentality is very simple on this topic: racist fucks who may use these words aren't even worth your mental effort. Just laugh at them and walk away, it's a waste of your time to spend any time or effort of any kind.

Carlin takes that a bit further and is basically saying "who cares about the words, it's the mentality of the person you should care about. The words in and of themselves mean nothing so don't waste your time fighting the meaning behind them". I'm saying that person just ain't worth your time.

In case you need to keep up with the PhD student: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pejorative

And Mental, the backwards nature of over half of your population is unfortunate. But like I said above, those people just ain't worth your time. Forget about them, they're gone. And the "suck my dick" references are probably akin to the humiliation they see in their homophobia. It's a pretty big insult in their minds, even if it's playful.

Eh. It's not the worst thing to know what prejudice is. Knowing it better makes me more determined to try to root it out in my own life, to some extent.

I hate how fucking weak-kneed white people have become.

We are so goddamn afraid of being seen as racist or politically incorrect that it's turning us into milquetoasts beyond reproach. You know the word nigger? It was a pretty common term back in the day for black people, and the most common person to use it was white. Now? The word is the absolute WORST word in the English language. Nobody can utter it, even in a completely unhateful context. Some say it's a history thing, some say the meaning behind it is still there. I say, it's because white people are fucking pussies.

I'm sick of it all. I hate racism and racists as much as the next reasonable person, and I sure as hell hate the very CONCEPT of slavery. Yet when I'm sitting in an ethics class, listening to my peers--my supposedly educated peers--unable to bring themselves to say six-little letters--it gets my blood flowing. It's not like we're any LESS racist for omitting the word from our lexicon. We still are. Oh, be careful around Black people, they'll steal your shit. Their music is all about guns and violence against women. Racial profiling. Stereotyping. We're still fucking racist--the only difference is, we're in complete denial about it.

You know what is refreshing nowadays? A guy who actually says, believes, and defends saying horribly racist things. I'd rather have a conversation with the most hot-blooded, ignorant bastard who thinks that Jews are running this country to the ground, wetbacks are stealing our jobs, and niggers are violent criminals, then I would some self-righteous fucktard who is so concerned about SEEMING tolerant and polite that he or she completely misses the point--that is, it doesn't matter what you look like or even what you say, but how you ACT that makes you racist. And you know what? Each and every one of us have acted at some point or another in a way that could VERY easily be seen as racist.

That being said, this mayor guy is a fucking idiot. A government employee, insulting the WIFE of the goddamn President? Ha. I'll expect your desk cleaned out by morning.

People are irrational creatures, and it's natural for us to have aversions to saying words that we've been trained to think of as hateful.

When a cup of water is placed in a bell jar, and the air is pumped out of the jar, the water boils. Boiling is a function of liquid heat and air pressure; it occurs when the energy of the liquid's molecules are high enough to overcome the force of the ambient air. Hence, room temperature water can boil in low-pressure.

I can explain this to you, and you can understand it, but I bet you'd still be reluctant to stick your finger in the water.

This does not make you stupid, nor does it mean you don't believe or understand the science behind it. Over many years, we have learned that boiling water is dangerous. Ambient air never has low enough air pressure for water to boil at room temperature, so we have a simple association: boiling water must be hot enough to hurt me. It's an aversion on the level of basic survival, and it's difficult to use reason to completely overcome it.

Replay wrote:Eh. It's not the worst thing to know what prejudice is. Knowing it better makes me more determined to try to root it out in my own life, to some extent.

Understandable. But does that mean that you spend any time discussing/correcting/arguing against/etc. a bigot/racist/discriminatory fuck?

Your futuristic grammars elude me and confuse my poor 21st-century brain.

Replay wrote:Your futuristic grammars elude me and confuse my poor 21st-century brain.

Yeah, uh, you're not alone on that.

Shrinweck wrote:

Replay wrote:Your futuristic grammars elude me and confuse my poor 21st-century brain.

Yeah, uh, you're not alone on that.

yeah, yeah, yeah....edited :-)

I still don't get it, unless you mean to say "don't engage". And, I tend to have my own views on that. So, we can leave it be.

It's funny that I've started this huge thread from one post.

RentCavalier wrote:I hate how fucking weak-kneed white people have become.

We are so goddamn afraid of being seen as racist or politically incorrect that it's turning us into milquetoasts beyond reproach. You know the word nigger? It was a pretty common term back in the day for black people, and the most common person to use it was white. Now? The word is the absolute WORST word in the English language. Nobody can utter it, even in a completely unhateful context. Some say it's a history thing, some say the meaning behind it is still there. I say, it's because white people are fucking pussies.

I'm sick of it all. I hate racism and racists as much as the next reasonable person, and I sure as hell hate the very CONCEPT of slavery. Yet when I'm sitting in an ethics class, listening to my peers--my supposedly educated peers--unable to bring themselves to say six-little letters--it gets my blood flowing. It's not like we're any LESS racist for omitting the word from our lexicon. We still are. Oh, be careful around Black people, they'll steal your shit. Their music is all about guns and violence against women. Racial profiling. Stereotyping. We're still fucking racist--the only difference is, we're in complete denial about it.

You know what is refreshing nowadays? A guy who actually says, believes, and defends saying horribly racist things. I'd rather have a conversation with the most hot-blooded, ignorant bastard who thinks that Jews are running this country to the ground, wetbacks are stealing our jobs, and niggers are violent criminals, then I would some self-righteous fucktard who is so concerned about SEEMING tolerant and polite that he or she completely misses the point--that is, it doesn't matter what you look like or even what you say, but how you ACT that makes you racist. And you know what? Each and every one of us have acted at some point or another in a way that could VERY easily be seen as racist.

That being said, this mayor guy is a fucking idiot. A government employee, insulting the WIFE of the goddamn President? Ha. I'll expect your desk cleaned out by morning.

You probably made my point better than I did.

I don't give a shit about "racist" words or "racist" jokes or even "racist" stereotyping. I joke about signs appearing in Spanish (in a normally uni-lingual country) in front of places like Lowes and Burger King (and lo and behold most of the workforce in the BK is Mexican). I joke about when I take the shortcut through the poor area of town, there's always these thug gangsta types driving Escalades and pregnant 18-year-old black chicks carrying two kids and wearing a shirt that doesn't fit her belly because she's too poor to buy a better shirt, but apparently has enough money to have three kids.

Does that make me racist? Not really. I just make fun of people who fit the stereotypes so well. There's a difference between believing that stereotypes fit SOME people, and believing that stereotypes fit ALL people, or all of a certain class of people. I don't believe that stereotype fits for all black people, nor even all poor black people. It just pisses me off when people pidginhole themselves into bad stereotypes.

As far as this mayor, well, I don't know if he's racist because I haven't seen him ACT racist. He hasn't passed any racist laws, or said anything racist ON THE RECORD, like in his official job. Half of the Republican Senate committee for appointing Soyomayor IS racist! They said some pretty fucking stupid and racist comments that betray their true intentions.

"But, but, the jokes?" Fuck the jokes. They are jokes. We said some pretty bad ones during the Clinton era. Remember the one about the first pitch? We were basically calling the first lady a bitch, and we laughed at that joke. Hell, that was pre-Monica, too. How many dick and cigar jokes did we make for him? We laughed at Chris Rock when he's said that the first lady didn't suck his dick enough.

"But, but, it said...nigger" Fine whatever. Maybe he is a racist for passing it along and not thinking about how it could be construed by his friends. However, frankly, I'm disappointed at the double-standard. Black people can say nigger all they want. They can use it in their jokes, plaster it all over their music, use it as a greeting. White people can't. As soon as you say or use the word, you're suddenly labeled a racist.

Does that mean black people are racist against their own people? Just how "black" do you have to be to be able to use it? Dark black? Brown? Light brown? What if you LOOK white, but are actually black? What the fuck does it matter? It's just a goddamn word.

Whether or not your philosophy dictates that racism is taboo or not; I think we can all agree that a government official telling racist jokes is not appropriate behaviour.

Racism is a touchy subject because people are undecided on whether or not society is past those times of racial discomfort. Some feel we are, some feel we aren't; I am willing to bet that most are unsure.

While on the subject, whenever a sentence is started with "I'm not a racist, but...." you KNOW what comes out of the guy's mouth is going to be the type of material that you can really just nod and smile at.