The Shrine

and Apple, again, treats it like they invented the wheel.

http://www.apple.com/ipodnano/features/fm-radio.html

Welcome to 10 years ago.

Do other devices allow Tivo-like control of the stream? (This is not glib or rhetorical; I don't know the answer.)

Kupek wrote:Do other devices allow Tivo-like control of the stream? (This is not glib or rhetorical; I don't know the answer.)

Sansa and Sony MP3 players do and XM has for as long as i've seen them, too.

I'm a little sad that the iPhone got cut and paste and the iPods have radio now since those were two arguing points i've used for years as to why they suck.

Flip wrote:I'm a little sad that the iPhone got cut and paste and the iPods have radio now since those were two arguing points i've used for years as to why they suck.

If you argued that X sucks because it does not have Y, and now it has Y, but you still think X sucks the same, then lack of Y was not a real reason why you thought X sucked. In other words, your argument was disingenuous.

It's called bias.

Kupek wrote:

Flip wrote:I'm a little sad that the iPhone got cut and paste and the iPods have radio now since those were two (of the many) arguing points i've used for years as to why they suck.

If you argued that X sucks because it does not have Y, and now it has Y, but you still think X sucks the same, then lack of Y was not a real reason why you thought X sucked. In other words, your argument was disingenuous.

Edited it for you.

Fair enough. But your phrasing makes it sound like your dislike is independent of the device itself.

My tiny, buggy Phillips MP3 player has FM radio and voice recording as well. All props to Apple but this really reminds me of Sony adding the equivalent of IRC to the PS3 and trying their best to call it a step forward.

I found my Diamond Rio PMP 300 the other day. It still works and I think it sounds better than my iPod still. To bad it doesn't have the storage.

Flip wrote:and Apple, again, treats it like they invented the wheel.

http://www.apple.com/ipodnano/features/fm-radio.html

Welcome to 10 years ago.

Heh, that's their favorite pastime. Who cares that other companies already did it? Apple didn't do it, so it wasn't invented. When Apple does it, then it was invented by Apple.

90% marketing, 10% engineering.

SineSwiper wrote:90% marketing, 10% engineering.

But they're amazingly successful. You do have to give them credit in how they repackage old technology, make it stylish, add/remove features that suit "the masses", then make a killing. That's a skill in and of itself. Nintendo blatantly copied their styling for the Wii and DS to go after a similar broad audience after all.

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:90% marketing, 10% engineering.

But they're amazingly successful. You do have to give them credit in how they repackage old technology, make it stylish, add/remove features that suit "the masses", then make a killing. That's a skill in and of itself. Nintendo blatantly copied their styling for the Wii and DS to go after a similar broad audience after all.

And this is coming from a person who hates Microsoft.

SineSwiper wrote:

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:90% marketing, 10% engineering.

But they're amazingly successful. You do have to give them credit in how they repackage old technology, make it stylish, add/remove features that suit "the masses", then make a killing. That's a skill in and of itself. Nintendo blatantly copied their styling for the Wii and DS to go after a similar broad audience after all.

And this is coming from a person who hates Microsoft.

Didn't realize Apple had a monopoly which they used to exploit the customers while delivering unfinished, unstable software and lower-quality hardware.

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:And this is coming from a person who hates Microsoft.

Didn't realize Apple had a monopoly which they used to exploit the customers while delivering unfinished, unstable software and lower-quality hardware.

Apple has been dreaming of such a monopoly for 20 years. Now they nearly have it with the iPhone. Unless something is done soon (like Android on more phones), everybody will be developing apps exclusively on the iPhone and all other phones will be locked out.

As far as unfinished software, what moron releases mobile phone software without C&P and SMS text messaging? How many battery and overheating problems has Apple had?

Apple and Microsoft are two very similar companies, but Apple is much better with their marketing and fanbase. Apple is MUCH better at sweeping shit under the rug, too. Thus, everybody loves Apple, but hates Microsoft.

Contributing Apple's success exclusively to its marketing ignores design. People prefer the iPod over other players not because of its features, but because of how it looks, feels and the experience of using it. Good design is hard, and Apple does it well. Or, if you're not willing to call it "good" design, then design that appeals to many people to the point that features become a secondary concern.

I've made a similar point multiple times.

I hate the 'it just works' ads. The gf has a mac book and the piece of shit locks up all the time or sometimes doesnt lock up but the screen goes blank until you put it to sleep them wake it up. So annoying. Its a known issue that Apple doesnt fix outside of one year, so thanks for nothing. It just works is such a load of shit, their laptops have problems just like everyone else.

SineSwiper wrote:

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:And this is coming from a person who hates Microsoft.

Didn't realize Apple had a monopoly which they used to exploit the customers while delivering unfinished, unstable software and lower-quality hardware.

Apple has been dreaming of such a monopoly for 20 years. Now they nearly have it with the iPhone. Unless something is done soon (like Android on more phones), everybody will be developing apps exclusively on the iPhone and all other phones will be locked out.

As far as unfinished software, what moron releases mobile phone software without C&P and SMS text messaging? How many battery and overheating problems has Apple had?

Apple and Microsoft are two very similar companies, but Apple is much better with their marketing and fanbase. Apple is MUCH better at sweeping shit under the rug, too. Thus, everybody loves Apple, but hates Microsoft.

They nearly have a monopoly with the iPhone? Has anyone informed RIM or Nokia of this? It may come as a little bit of a surprise to them. Come to think of it, you're right. The Crackberry has really, really been suffering as of late and their sales and lack of apps are really showing that Apple's dominance is just inevitable. Guess they're gonna have to cancel those plans to expand from 3,000 to 12,000 employees here in Waterloo and lose that "fastest growing company in the world" status they achieved earlier this year. (in case you haven't figure it out, that's a HUUUUGE sarcasm alert :-).

In case you even attempt to argue that they are not competitors, you're talking about the iPhone's monopoly which implies that it will be dominating the residential cellphone market, in which Nokia is still the worldwide leader and RIM is making its largest expansion and growing at an astronomical rate. Also, the Crackberry Storm would dispel any notion that RIM doesn't see Apple as a direct competitor.

Leaving out or including features is exactly what I was talking about before. I don't know the numbers or research, but they obviously felt it wasn't worth it to include C&P and SMS text messaging as features. That's a design choice (much like their leaving out the DVD drive in their new laptop a few years back) and nothing to do with whether or not they are an effective company.

Battery/overheating problems? I do know that of all my family who has an iPhone (I think it's 4 of them), not one has returned theirs. A slightly better ratio than the 360, which everyone I know who has one except for one (about 8 total) had to return theirs, often times more than once. But, I don't know the exact issues or the extent of these issues, so I really can't comment any further.

Apple and Microshaft are not the same at all other than the fact they're market leaders in certain segments. If any company is like Apple, it's Sony, except Sony actual invents things here and there.

Sine, don't forget, I despise Apple's products immensely. I see nearly everything they make as an over-marketed, feature-deficient, stylized paperweight that bring nothing new to the products they sell and are just repackaged versions of other companies' innovation. But man, you cannot discount the effectiveness of their business and marketing strategies. They're most certainly a market leader in that manner and you gotta give them props for that.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to mention that Apple's products are severely over-priced as well. Not just somewhat, but highly, highly over-priced

Flip wrote:I hate the 'it just works' ads. The gf has a mac book and the piece of shit locks up all the time or sometimes doesnt lock up but the screen goes blank until you put it to sleep them wake it up. So annoying. Its a known issue that Apple doesnt fix outside of one year, so thanks for nothing. It just works is such a load of shit, their laptops have problems just like everyone else.

To me, buying an Apple is like buying a Smartcar, it never passes the "why" test, particularly when you see that it costs you more for less.

There's alwaysbeen prejudice against Apple. The bottom line is that they have stayed on top of the game. There have been a lot of immitation phones out there but they always come off feeling like a defective iPhone; the touch screens on other devices are fairly terrible and lack multi-touch or don't lend themselves very well to gestures. It is not just that Apple has good marketing, their product is often what people are looking for.

In the past year I have found more use for my iPhone than any other piece of electronics I have ever owned. I have 24/7 access to a notepad and the Internet. Right now I am sitting down at the waterfront enjoying the breeze and scenary before heading back; and I also have this with me. It's a very enjoyable and highly convenient experience.

I don't have much experience with other Apple products, but lots of experience with dozens of other mobile products. This is by far my favourite, and I am spending quite a bit less than I was on my Nokia N95 just a year and a few months ago; this phone also cost me initially about half the price of the N95.

SineSwiper wrote:Apple and Microsoft are two very similar companies, but Apple is much better with their marketing and fanbase. Apple is MUCH better at sweeping shit under the rug, too. Thus, everybody loves Apple, but hates Microsoft.

Microsoft does two things poorly: QA and PR. Those things feed on each other to create the modern perception of the company. I do feel they do a tremendous number of things right, for which they are rarely given credit, and I also agree, Apple and other tech companies (Intel comes to mind) do a whole range of dubious things that mostly get forgotten about.

The "it just works" campaign, in my opinion, owes its success far more to the presence of spyware and malware on Windows machines than anything else. We here on these forums are used to working on machines that are in good running condition, because if they are not, we will fix them. And a Windows machine in good running condition is a very fast, capable computer that probably costs less than its competitors. (I know there are few Apple computers I would trade my present machine for, and it's not even high-end.) However, due to a number of factors, market share and system design both among them, a number of Windows machines are perpetually crippled and rendered nearly useless by malware. Hence, the ad campaign.

I think the "it just works" has more to do with integration between the OS, hardware and applications. On Windows, not a single app I use is a Microsoft app - not even what I use to connect to Unix-based machines (Putty). On a Mac, with the exception of Firefox and Adium, everything is an Apple application.

Kupek wrote:I think the "it just works" has more to do with integration between the OS, hardware and applications. On Windows, not a single app I use is a Microsoft app - not even what I use to connect to Unix-based machines (Putty). On a Mac, with the exception of Firefox and Adium, everything is an Apple application.

What spreadsheet or word processing program do you use on the PC?

I don't use Word Processors. I do all document preparation using a markup language called Latex. It's standard practice in science and engineering.

I do make presentations every few months, and I'll use spreadsheets if I want to make a quick graph. I'd prefer to use Office for that on Windows, but the only Windows machine I use is owned by IBM, and I have to use Lotus Symphony, which is just a rebranded OpenOffice.

For the record, I think Microsoft actually makes good software these days. Office is good. Windows is good. (But I do think it's a terrible environment for software development.) I don't think Windows is bad, I just think OSX is better.

Your use of computers is very, very different than nearly everyone who works in an office or at home. Most of us, if we're using an app, have to use word processors or spreadsheet programs on a regular basis and, since no one seems to believe than anything other than Word or Excel exists, we have little choice but to use those programs. So we have to use MS's apps whether we want to or not.

For the most part, I would say that MS does decent software nowadays. They finally corrected Excel's biggest deficiency when they went from 65k to over 1M lines (ask anyone who uses an ERP program like SAP and they will tell you that's an issue). They pretty much have all of the features you would want or need 99% of the time. Excel 2007 finally corrected that crippling problem from 2003 and before, that was great. Their programs finally seem to not fight against you so much (there is an exception to the rule) when you're trying to use them and they finally seem to work the way you want them to, which is certainly not the way it was in the past.

But what's killer about their stuff is how they make them a challenge to use. For example, they go ahead and put that retarded ribbon on the top. So, much like Sh....Vista (I'm trying), they changed stuff for the sake of changing it without making it any better. I spent a decade learning the menu drop-down system and now I have to re-learn where everything is. Not better, just different for the sake of being different. Their "goal" was to show people who were intimidated by the menu system what all of the features Excel had. I took an advanced Excel course and the gentlemen who was running it told me that's what the team at MS told him. Newsflash: if people are too stupid/lazy/etc to navigate one or two layers of menu, they ain't gonna learn how to do pivot tables or how the camera function works. Different, not better, is a very, very bad thing. And I won't even start on my Word's-way-or-the-highway rant.....

So yes, they're better than they were before and have finally become not frustrating to use. I think it's also the fact that we're so used to it now and there's no real competition to push them on any of their apps anymore like there used to be.

Tupac Seekur wrote:There's alwaysbeen prejudice against Apple. The bottom line is that they have stayed on top of the game.

To you, Seek, what is "their game"? We've heard what a bunch of us non-Apple fans think. I know you're a huge Apple fan and am curious as to your perception of what they bring to the table or why you're a fan.

I just ordered an ipod touch because I feel like I am missing an important technological step with the app store (and I don't want to pay the ridiculous prices that come with having an iphone with Rogers).

Also, gotta play that Mass Effect game.

Kupek wrote:Windows is good. (But I do think it's a terrible environment for software development.) I don't think Windows is bad, I just think OSX is better.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think it's a terrible environment for SD? I'm not necessarily disagreeing - I'm just interested in your thoughts on the subject. I'm assuming you prefer Linux over Windows for SD?

Windows is an operating system for people who use computers, not people who make things for computers. Which is fine - when I'm not working, that fits me, too. I'd rather have Windows at home than Linux.

The entire concept of an integrated development environment (IDE) exists because Windows itself is not inherently a development environment. So they put everything a developer would need in one, central place.

Contrast this with Unix inspired OSes, which includes Linux. You don't need an integrated development environment because the entire system is your development environment. Unix based OSes were built by developers, for developers. I don't need one program that contains everything related to development.

The big difference is the native way to interact with the system. On Windows, it's through the GUI, using the windowing system. On a Unix based OS, even though they all have windowing systems, the native way to interact is through the command line. From the command line I have access to all of my development tools, except online resources. Right now, I write my experiments in C++ using vi as my editor. I have a Python script that executes my experiments with all of the different parameters we care about. I post-process some of the data with another Python script. I have gnuplot scripts that read my data to generate figures, which I drop directly into my paper that I'm writing in Latex.

That's what I mean by I don't need an integrated development environment. By having all of the programs I need installed on the same system, and through a common interface (the command line), the whole system is my development environment.

In the Windows world, all of this would happen inside separate programs. Windows has a command line, but it's clearly not how you're expected to interact with the system.

For the record, my preferences for non-work computer stuff is Mac, Windows, Linux. My preference for work computer stuff is Mac, Linux, Windows. (Although I use a Mac desktop to connect to Linux servers.)

I couldn't disagree with you more, Kup, especially over the last few years. A lot of Windows' SDKs are overengineered and awful, especially prior to about 2005, but .NET is actually in my opinion a tremendous integrated development environment, and C# undoubtedly one of the cleanest languages I've ever used. XNA is allowing me to do things that wouldn't be possible anywhere else and is also one of the cleanest technologies I've used.

Kupek wrote:Windows is an operating system for people who use computers, not people who make things for computers.

I've been programming for my Windows machines and others since I was about fourteen. That's fifteen years now. If I haven't been making things for computers, I'm relatively confused as to what I have been doing. A command line or preference for one does not a developer make.

I didn't say Windows can't be used for development, or that if you develop on Windows you're not a Real Developer. Certainly, someone had to make all of the applications that exist on a Windows computer.

I said that Windows is for the consumers. It was designed with them in mind, not you. For this reason, you need an IDE. I didn't say IDEs are bad. I did point out why they're necessary on Windows, but not necessary on Unix.

Unix was designed by developers. The primary goal of Windows was to make the computer usable by non-programmers. The primary goal of Unix was to make an environment where programmers could program.

Yes, but because of the amount of resources Microsoft has accumulated and thrown into R and D as a result of a consumer-friendly philosophy, I can program things on my PC that would be exceedingly difficult to do in Unix.

I'm not saying either is better, but I hope your implication is not that Microsoft has a developer-unfriendly stance or that programming for Windows is convoluted in the modern age. Neither is true.

I have not forgotten Blamer chanting "Developers, developers, developers." But I still prefer an environment that doesn't require an IDE. I'm trying to explain what my developer workflow is on a Unix-based system, and why that is different from an IDE-based workflow on a Windows system.