The Shrine

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>So my thoughts have turned (with this 2D competitive Puzzle-Fighter-Meets-Galaxian space shooter I'm programming) towards daydreams and idle thoughts of perhaps working towards a job in "the industry". Which industry, you ask? What planet are you from and how soon can you go back? I say.

So, pluses: Doing something fun, Love what you do, fulfills childhood dreams, makes something that makes people happy

Minuses: 60-hour standard workweeks, mastery of 3D math problems that can kill at 50 paces, comparatively low pay, incredibly high pressure, zero or sub-zero usefulness to society as a whole, low likelihood of actually working on a good game.

Any thoughts?

If I really do decide I love videogames and that my five-year hiatus from them has been some horrible hellspawn twisted joke, and I decide to try to acquire the necessary skills and somehow I manage to make it back into school, I think I have a shot on actually making it into the industry. The question would be, do I really want to?</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>competitiveness is just nuts, both for individual jobs and company vs company. Developers srping up and shut down every day, such an environment is too unstable for my liking.</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>It's been my experience that people who *really* want something don't have to ask others for encouragement to go after that something. Not trying to be a smartass.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Well, nothing wrong with a little bit of moral support and encouragement.</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>Of course. But I feel that their place should be *after* the decision is made. I don't think that you should make an important personal decision based on whether or not you get encouragement from other people. If it's something you *really* want, you go for it, whatever the hell other people say.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>The "necessary skills" is a degree in CS. I think that going for a CS degree ONLY because you want to make videogames is a bad idea; it's not realistic. However, if you like programming in general and would like to do that as a career, then it's a good idea. (Although jobs are tight.)</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>That is a good point...I'm more trying to find out if I do really want to do this, but I suppose that's a decision I need to make on my own time.</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>I think you have to have more than a degree in CS...it seems that at least one demo game is a good idea, as well as not neglecting 3D math and AI courses as part of your curriculum.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Yup, a CS degree is definitely not sufficient, but it is necessary.</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>I just recently graduated, and I certainly feel this. I know exactly what I DON'T want, but I am completely clueless about what I want to be a few years from now. I notice this too in my graduating class. A lot of them frequently hop between jobs as soon as they get a better offer (= better salary), sometimes destroying their relationship with previous employers.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Sounds like you have the pluses and minuses figured out. I say go for it. Yeah, the 3D Math can be nasty (for typical modern games), but it's doable (I'm learning it on my own). Also, the skills you pick up are applicable to many areas outside the game industry.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>A solid demo demonstrating an understanding of 3D math and AI used in modern gaming is way better than any degree.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Yep. But eventually I justed settled on world domination as a goal.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>What's up? I recently got layed off and rehired. Double pay woohoo! ;)</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Nothing wrong with gathering a bit of tribal wisdom before making a leap. Informed decisions generally pay off better. However, like Zhuge says, if you really want to do this, don't let the bad stuff discourage you...</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>I think it's funny how every industry refers to itself as "the industry"...</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>And I can guarantee that there's someone else who has just as good a demo AND the degree. Unless you start your own company (which is a whole 'nother bag of worms), I don't see anyone getting a job as a programmer in the videogame industry without a CS, EE or CPE degree.</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>you dirty dirty bastard... where and what are you doing now?</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Man, you've got some eerie timing. This month's issue of Game Informer has a huge feature entitled "How to Get a Job in the Game Industry". It was a pretty good piece, with interviews from lots of actual industry professionals, highly recommend you check it out.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>The more I read GI the more I hate it</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/">http://www.gamasutra.com/</a>

Here, this is the website of a magazine devoted to people working in the videogame industry. Some of the stuff makes for interesting reads.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Or you could try Game Developer, which actually focuses on game design and programming on a monthly basis. They also had an issue a few months ago dedicated to breaking in the industry, complete with contact nmbers and so forth. BTW, this is the mag Kupek is talking about.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Nah. I've read a lot on it though...</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>That's a bet I'm willing to take. Not to put down the value of a CS degree, but I can name tons of counter examples...</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Programming down in the OC.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Go ahead. I'm interested to hear the backgrounds of these people, who they worked for, and when they got the job.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>If you're dedicated enough, I don't think a formal education is necessary to be a top notch game programmer (or any other kind of programmer really). But I guess you could say that about lots of things. Still, I wouldn't advise most people to skip on a degree.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Notice I am not saying that someone without a CS degree will be a bad programmer. Some people are smart enough to learn this stuff on their own, and be far better at it than I am (Carmack, for example). But that, unfortunately, is not enough to actually get you the job. The videogame industry is different now. If someone writes a brilliant game and gets it known, I can see that person getting a job in the industry without having a degree. But it would take a damned impressive game that is well known (say, Counter Strike). But that's nowhere near the norm. Like most programming jobs, they'll want to see a degree.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Just about the only places that require programming degrees are companies outside of the gaming industry.

There's a reason why major devlopers like <a href="http://www.sega.com/corporate/corporate ... 3">Sega</a>, <a href="http://www.lucasarts.com/jobs/departmen ... casArts</a>, and <a href="http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/job ... Bioware</a> don't *require* a CS degree and most don't even mention the word "degree" - these are companies with techs/hackers at high levels and they realize that the degree, while nice, just isn't THAT necessary if someone is dedicated enough. All the needed skills can be gained outside of a CS degree program with work. Skills are all that matter.

But as I said earlier, the CS degree (or at least enough time in a CS program to learn what it takes) is still probably the best way for most people to go since many don't have access to the resources to know what it takes to do software for games (though with the Web, that's increasingly not going to be the case).</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Just about the only places that require programming degrees are companies outside of the gaming industry.

There's a reason why major devlopers like <a href="http://www.sega.com/corporate/corporate ... 3">Sega</a>, <a href="http://www.lucasarts.com/jobs/departmen ... casArts</a>, and <a href="http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/job ... Bioware</a> don't *require* a CS degree and most don't even mention the word "degree" - these are companies with techs/hackers at high levels and they realize that the degree, while nice, just isn't THAT necessary if someone is dedicated enough. All the needed skills can be gained outside of a CS degree program. Skills are all that matter.

But as I said earlier, the CS degree (or at least enough time in a CS program to learn what it takes) is still probably the most realistic way for most people to go since many don't have access to the necessary resources or don't know what it takes to do software for games (though with the Web, that's increasingly not going to be the case).</div>