Greeks Rioting In Athens Over Austerity

[Replay]

Hope you all aren't planning on visiting any vacation properties you buy from Kal anytime soon.

The rioters are out for blood; and that includes the blood of foreign investors buying up distressed Greek properties right now.

[Oracle]

Regardless of whether or not anyone on this board is truly serious about buying property in Greece: SOMEONE will buy the property that will inevitably go up for sale. Odds are, it won't be the average Greek.

If I were Greek, I'd be rioting because we just had a referendum which said NO to austerity measures, yet the Greek government is now voting on, and likely to approve... crippling austerity measures. Kinda tells a Greek that votes truly mean nothing.

Sad part is, even if austerity measures weren't being considered, even if Greece eventually went back to the Drachma, the riots would have just happened later after extreme poverty became even more rampant due to an inability to import the goods required to run their society (as no one would want to touch a Drachma as a form of payment).

[Replay]

Oracle, you're not Greek. If you were Greek, there is a good chance that you'd be furious that Goldman and the IMF took down your country, just like these Greeks are.

The IMF has made $1.5b on Greek loan interest so far - Goldman Sachs $300m. It is known that Goldman falsified books in 2001-2002 for the Greek entry into the Eurozone. Most Greeks had no say whatsoever in these matters.

Foreign interests buying up Greek property is a prime motivator both for the anti-austerity anarchists and for Golden Dawn - the Greek neo-Nazi group. This has been good for nobody EXCEPT foreign real estate speculators.

Yes, SOME of this is blamable on the national Greek epidemic of tax fraud...but a lot of it isn't.

As always, I'm just trying to remind people that profiteering and speculation of any kind always have human costs.

[Oracle]

Note that I said 'If I were Greek'. And note that you're not Greek either. See, I can say obvious things, too.

And I'm trying to remind you that profiteering and speculation in Greece will occur, no matter how badly you don't want it to. Kali is quite correct in stating that foreign investment (under the current economic model) is needed to boost and stimulate the Greek economy.

Know what else has human costs? Tax dodging and corruption.

The Greeks protesting today are not protesting (directly) because of Goldman Sachs. Today is all about the vote. Ironically, the IMF is one of the only groups with (direct) skin in this game as a creditor advocating for some level of debt relief for Greece (no, this does not excuse the IMF's part in creating this mess).

No, I may not be Greek, but I have personal interest in this crisis. My best friend's father, who is a close family friend as well, is currently struggling in Greece with his long-owned club and restaurant on the island of Rhodes. His other family members in Greece, in both Athens and Thessaloniki, are also dealing with their own struggles because of this crisis.

Yes, my friend an I are seriously talking about acquiring property in Greece - in part to ensure his father has a reliable residence in the event that he loses his business.

[Replay]

The Greeks protesting today are not protesting (directly) because of Goldman Sachs.

I doubt that. Those who actually understand what happened know Goldman is an integral part of this...but for some reason this community seems absolutely immune to having any kind of discussion of the criminality at Goldman. I can bring up that Goldman has misrepresented and sold ARM mortgages in the States as fixed-rate mortgages, promising to new home buyers a fixed payment and driven thousands bankrupt - that they've "laddered" securities (driven up the price of stocks and then unloaded them knowing the price will crash) - that they've defrauded pension funds, and worse - and nobody seems to care.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... e-20100405

Odd to me. It's almost as if as long as these things are only happening to other people, nobody here cares.

No, I may not be Greek, but I have personal interest in this crisis. My best friend's father, who is a close family friend as well, is currently struggling in Greece with his long-owned club and restaurant on the island of Rhodes. His other family members in Greece, in both Athens and Thessaloniki, are also dealing with their own struggles because of this crisis.

Yes, my friend an I are seriously talking about acquiring property in Greece - in part to ensure his father has a reliable residence in the event that he loses his business.

Let us say that your best friend's father in better times acquired a new nightclub/restaurant with a set of books given to him stating that the club was essentially breaking even, secure in his ability to renovate and innovate - then after purchase found out the place was deeply in debt, needed renovations, and so on, and that all the club's creditors had been given paperwork stating to collect their debts from him.

Would he sue the accountant who did the filing and the former owner?

Well, that is what happened TO THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. Greece was in no shape to enter the Eurozone, but Goldman cooked the books anyway. If you or your friends have been personally affected by this, you ought to care that Goldman defrauded the Greek people, Germany, and the IMF all, and made $300m doing it - that the IMF has made $1.5 billion on interest on loans very few of the Greeks agreed to.

The reason you have stated for trying to acquire Greek property, however, is legitimate. More power to you and your best friend's father in the process.

The reasons Kali has stated - because the Greeks are "miserable Greeks", because he wants to "speculate a sinking ship", and so on - are not. Kali is not investing to "boost and stimulate" the economy and you know it. He wants to pick up property for the price of a car per usable lot and unload it for hundreds of thousands in happier times. It is not likely that the amount he wants to pay is going to "stimulate the economy" in any way and you have to understand that, Oracle. It's actually going to depress real estate prices and drive Greeks further underwater.

Now - if Kali is your only way to pick up property there, what am I going to say to that? Your best friend's father needs a place to live. I'm not going to condemn you for doing that, even if he's involved. But please do not do me, Greece, and any other protester of the corruption that allowed this to happen the injustice of trying to pretend that Kali is acting as some kind of savior of the Greek economy here. Other than trying to get you a property for your best friend's father - I strongly suspect Kali's investment in Greece is solely to benefit Kali.

Know what else has human costs? Tax dodging and corruption.

No doubt! But do you know what is happening? The tax dodging is getting punished so severely people are committing suicide over it - while the corruption at Goldman and in the old Greek government is not, not in any way that matters whatsoever. Why are you so eager to let Goldman off the hook?

[kali o.]

All still going according to plan...the world is so easy to manipulate

[Replay]

Boy, THAT will sure dispel all the talk that some of this has been a plan to take Greece down from the beginning, Kali.

Let's hear again how anyone who thinks there's more to this story than meets the eye is a "conspiracy theorist". Or you could talk about how if I really knew who you were, I'd shit myself; that was entertaining too.

[Replay]

Upstanding, charming friend you have here, Oracle. Did you meet Kali at the Shrine or did you know him from before this?

[Don]

Speculative market is just that, speculative. I remember on the jacket insert for Ravages of Time the author wrote something like, "I used to have a gambling problem, but now I just speculate on markets because the odds are better". You might guess right, or the government might just repossess everything just because they can. Compared to some of the other stuff you can waste money on it's not even necessarily bad odds because somebody has to win in these things as opposed to something that is rigged against you from the start (any kind of gambling, for example). It's not a way to make a living but if you're feeling lucky it's no worse than just wasting the money away gambling.

[Oracle]

Upstanding, charming friend you have here, Oracle. Did you meet Kali at the Shrine or did you know him from before this?

You really have no ability to distinguish between Kali being serious, and Kali jabbing at you while eating popcorn.

And outside of this message board, Kali and I don't know each other from a hole in the ground. I'd be glad to have a beer with him, however. I'm sure the topic of how much he loves to drive you nuts would come up.

[Oracle]

Why are you so eager to let Goldman off the hook?

Who said that? Oh right, you like putting controversial words into people's mouths so that your rambling narrative makes sense to you.

If it were up to me, Goldman Sachs would be on the same smoldering pile as the rest of the giant financial institutions that met their end during the recession. Good luck getting that justice, however.

[Replay]

Is it that I have no ability to distinguish between Kali being serious and joking or that you have no ability to distinguish between him joking and him rubbing his hands over taking part in some kind of manipulative profiteering, Oracle? You just admitted you don't know him from a hole in the ground.

Recall what I mentioned earlier - he told me that if I "really knew who he was, I'd poop myself" - and that I'd "never join the world elite".

He very clearly thinks he belongs to that group; yet every time I mention the notion that Kali has a dark side he doesn't show here, you go "Oh, he's just joking around."

The rumors that international bankers have plotted this economic hit on Greece for awhile are rather more credible than you might think - using the Greeks' own sins and flaws and the tax dodging as a cover to reduce the entire country to a vassal state that can't afford to either stay in OR leave the Eurozone - but it requires a lot of economic education to understand that, and most people don't care to look.

That supposed jovial nature of his sure seems to cover a lot of ground and provide a lot of excuses. No matter what shitfucked thing he says, you're sure it's a joke - and hey, it gets me mad, so it must be awesome, right? And he bought you a few free months of an MMO back in the day, so he must be a cool dude, right? Like an older brother who'll buy you beer and cigarettes before you're old enough to go in a liquor store. That's such a sign of someone being of the highest moral caliber, after all.

Don't let the idea that he's engaging in this speculation against the "miserable Greeks" like your best father's friend - again, his words, not mine - keep you up at night.

I don't think you will anyway.

[kali o.]

Hmmm...I don't think you understand the multiple interests at play here. The bankers have already made their money, a Greek default and exit doesn't actually benefit those folks (except private investment). The loss of those loans is simply a ledger entry -- and the money lost already hits the rest of the EU (taxpayers) and the casual financial market, not the Greeks.

Let me roadmap how this should ideally go -- Greece will still default after privatization of assets (severely undervalued at this point) occurs. I suppose the only hiccup is if the government dissolves due to democratic pressure before the assets are sold off...that doesn't effect me, however, as an exit is still the only final option. My plans always rest on "winning" in any scenario.

And if you are very concerned about the poor defenseless greeks, you should be aware the US will be shoring up Greece through extensive strategic contracting post-exit, even if there is no official support.

[Eric]

Is it that I have no ability to distinguish between Kali being serious and joking or that you have no ability to distinguish between him joking and him rubbing his hands over taking part in some kind of manipulative profiteering

It's that you have no ability to distinguish between Kali being serious and joking.

Maybe if the other Shrine members went ahead and also told you this, it would stop coming up all the bloody time.

[Replay]

Hmmm...I don't think you understand the multiple interests at play here. The bankers have already made their money, a Greek default and exit doesn't actually benefit those folks (except private investment).

Not anymore, certainly. The fact that many bankers have reaped obscene benefits from the action has been a point I have making all along.

The loss of those loans is simply a ledger entry -- and the money lost already hits the rest of the EU (taxpayers) and the casual financial market, not the Greeks.

Undoubtedly. The IMF has reaped $1.5 billion on the loans in interest - but the loss of the loan amount itself will no doubt be borne by the European Union taxpayer generally.

Let me roadmap how this should ideally go

Not doing a lot there to support Oracle's theory that you are a joking, innocent bystander who hasn't tried to manipulate the situation, are you?

My plans always rest on "winning" in any scenario.

As you well know, my issue with that is that you really don't seem to care who gets run over on your way to the cup. The gigantic seven-foot gasoline fire in the heart of Athens right now does not seem to have made an impression on anyone, I see. Nor have the suicides caused by austerity. Nor does the fact that ten percent of the country now officially belongs to Golden Dawn - there is no loss in translation as describing it as the Greek Nazi party.

And if you a very concerned about the poor defenseless greeks, you should be aware the US will be shoring up Greece through extensive strategic contracting post-exit, even if there is no official support.

Oh good! Let me break down that one into an educated guess for those who have never had to decipher diplomatic euphemisms before: property will pass from Greek hands into "strategically important" U.S. diplomatic connections - translation, the CIA will get a nice chunk for some secret projects, NATO will build some military bases with eyes pointing southward and eastward towards the troubled regions in North Africa and the Middle East, the NATO naval presence in the Mediterranean will be strongly bolstered by Greece's many substantial seaports, maybe Blackwater Xe gets some space, and key connected friends of the State Department or Treasury-connected banks will get the rest.

Very neat, very tidy. There really is no better nation in the world than Greece to keep an eye on Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia, is there? No more need to fuck around with messy arms trafficking from Libya if you can just have Greek ships bring over all the drama NATO needs to fight the ongoing Syrian war. NATO sees Greece as a great place to overwatch the Middle East generally, I'd guess. What a great bunch of people. I can't escape the feeling that you consider this a wonderful event not just because you will personally profit - but because you deeply either support, belong to, or have powerful friends in the military-industrial complex that will be the beneficiary of this.

Maybe the strategic-contractors you mention can fight all the Greek Nazis they're making as the rest of the country is routinely dispossessed, the old slide into poverty, and the young into virulently anti-Semitic, anti-U.S., anti-NATO street gangs and fascist political parties.

[kali o.]

Is it that I have no ability to distinguish between Kali being serious and joking or that you have no ability to distinguish between him joking and him rubbing his hands over taking part in some kind of manipulative profiteering

It's that you have no ability to distinguish between Kali being serious and joking.

Maybe if the other Shrine members went ahead and also told you this, it would stop coming up all the bloody time.

It's a safe bet I am *never* serious...or at least, never totally serious

[Replay]

Never totally honest, you mean? I know your style. You will only reveal information about yourself if it's of benefit to you. Does anyone here even know your real name yet? You're going to have to tell people who you are here at some point if you legitimately want to sell real estate to them.

I can tell simply from the things you know - and don't know - how high in the world's power structures you are likely to be, Kali. It is not the ground floor; also not the penthouse, as these things are measured. It is apparently high enough to engage in real estate speculation and manipulation, indeed profiteering - and to do minor background checks - but not very thorough ones, as our acquaintanceship so far should have proven to you.

For what it's worth - it is your offhand comment that I would "never join the world's elite" that I find very telling about you. I keep thinking about it mostly because it indicates you feel very competitively with me in some way. I also ponder it because, ironically, I actually have been invited to join some economically and politically powerful people in their pursuits and social circles from time to time. Invariably I have accepted - then left the social circle within a few months, utterly disgusted at the economically and personally predatory behavior that being a "world elite" actually entails in this world. In my experience, the behavior of world elites generally involves a lot of unethical financial deals, a lot of spying on other people, a lot of bullying people one does not like - and then abuse of position and power to protect themselves from the natural consequences of such actions when it invariably goes too far.

You would get along with some of these people famously. For what it's worth though - I also don't think you're likely to be a major villain; or you would know the truth about 9/11 already. I could be wrong that you don't know, of course - but I don't think so. And as a result you are not nearly scary enough to scare me, as you seem to think you are.

I still hold out hope one day, however, that you will endure experiences that give you the ability to care about anything besides yourself and your interests, and to get past your desire to "win" in every situation. The Shrine would be healthier for it. You are not the first I have known like this. Personalities like yours "win" every bout while losing deeply in the long run - for you hurt others in the pursuit of power, avoid close connections as a general rule, and miss out on a great deal of the larger experience of living. Bob Seger has written quite the song about mindsets like yours. I am not being critical of you here for the sake of being critical; but I really do get the sense you've hurt people in the pursuit of what you have - and that will catch up to you one day, Kal. And that's really what it comes down to for me; and why we have a hard time getting along.

Take it or leave it.

[kali o.]

Sorry, people higher up in the Order have demanded I cease leaving you breadcrumbs to the Truth.

[Replay]

Uh huh. Tell us all about it.

[Replay]

The Order of what? Real estate profiteers?

You've spent almost eight years here trying to convince everyone you're perpetually just fucking with me. Why don't we cut to your inevitable "I was just fucking with you" denial of the entire conversation?

Honestly? I'm sorry I didn't ban you fifteen years ago. This place was much more ethical, kinder, more honest, far less overlooking of piracy, and much better run before you came along.

[kali o.]

I could have you killed and -- err...I mean...I don't know what you are talking about.

True story: I was part of talks to open an expansion NHL team in Seattle...but dropped out (we didn't really drop out though, we are just pressuring for incentives to bring us back to the table). Do you know who I am yet, mr. investigator?

For crying out loud, you can puzzle out the truth behind 911 through the internet, but can't string together my clues?!

[Replay]

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[Replay]

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[kali o.]

Do it. Pics or it didn't happen.

Which reply is better:

"I would but my handlers won't give the greenlight!"

or

"I think neuroleptics beat me to it by about 10 years."

Both are funny. Know what else is funny. I realized that you will believe anything people tell you. I fully confess that I have exploited that recently. I'm sorry...

...or am I?

[Replay]

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[Replay]

How's the latest work coming by the way? I hear you guys are doing well.

Spoiler: show

http://shareholdersfoundation.com/casei ... possible-b

[Replay]

I could have you killed and -- err...I mean...I don't know what you are talking about.

___

[kali o.]

By the way, up to a thousand people have possibly now seen this particular line.

I showed it off, you're right, you ARE a funny man. People are madly amused.

I had my lawyers vet my post first. Clearly you need education...

1) As per the decision in John P. Diddley vs. The Internet (2002), the use of quote tags is imperative to establish the person(s) to which a comment is directed, the absence of which requires all parties to a thread to be joint plaintiffs to a legal action against an alleged threat. Eric is 50/50, but I think I can keep Oracle in line.

2) I used "could" and that language was very specific. I could kill you, I could decide to paint you in the nude, I could rape you. Well this got weird..er. Hold on. *Consults his team of highly paid lawyers*. I have been advised that the threshold for establishing sexual harassment (two benchmarks) is far lower than utterance of threats (4 benchmarks), so I would like to qualify the above; I would only paint you nude or rape you with your expressed written consent.

3) As per the decision in Timmy420 vs. ATT & LonSchlong666 (2005), winky emoticons or their equivalent (including but not limited to: jk, /sarcasm and lol) are considered to immediately invalidate any legal culpability. And you will never prove I didn't add the winky face after the fact!

In all seriousness, good to be reminded you are still on the prowl for legal action against the shrine et al. Let us know how it goes

[Replay]

Well this got weird..er. Hold on.

Yes, it just now got weird. ONLY right now. It was never weird before.

In all seriousness, good to be reminded you are still on the prowl for legal action against the shrine et al. Let us know how it goes

Every time I actually think about bothering someone important about this place, I am reminded of how little in actual money any irritants here are worth to me. Besides, this site's in violation of possibly half a dozen GoDaddy terms of service if I ever really changed my mind. No need to have to pay a lawyer.

I keep deciding against that for the very simple reason that this is a COMMUNITY - and one I founded, at that, no matter how you might claim otherwise. There's always someone not involved in any given squabble who might feel hurt by the loss of the community itself.

And, you have no idea how informative you are to me. I already got what I wanted. I finally understand your personality. Seven years I wondered what would possess you to manipulate certain things here the way you do; now I don't wonder anymore.

John P. Diddley vs. The Internet (2002), Timmy420 vs. ATT & LonSchlong666 (2005)

Such vaunted precedents. Bill of Rights and Dred Scott, move aside.

[kali o.]

And, you have no idea how informative you are to me. I already got what I wanted. I finally understand your personality. Seven years I wondered what would possess you to manipulate certain things here the way you do; now I don't wonder anymore.

Glad to be of service. Can you be more specific? If only for clarity, we can skip the foreplay and I can just provide what you need.

John P. Diddley vs. The Internet (2002), Timmy420 vs. ATT & LonSchlong666 (2005)

Such vaunted precedents. Bill of Rights and Dred Scott, move aside.

I can't totally tell whether you got this or not, but in either case, your reply is funny. So good job.

[Replay]

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[Julius Seeker]

Off topic: I keep reading the topic as "Geeks rioting in Athens" at a glance.

[Oracle]

Off topic: I keep reading the topic as "Geeks rioting in Athens" at a glance.

Bah hahaha. Man, that alone made me laugh.

[kali o.]

I'd still like to know how I have been informative. That seems completely out of character for me.

[Replay]

I'm sure you would. What's in it for me?

[kali o.]

I'm sure you would. What's in it for me?

My pithy bump aside, as I said, if I know what you are seeking, we can avoid the foreplay next time.

I also thought you said you wanted civilized dialog but I guess I was mistaken. /shrug

[Replay]

Oh my God, you're right! After your "jokes" that you could kill or rape me, I apologize for my horrid lack of incivility to you by failing to prioritize this discussion properly.

Everyone remember to laugh at Kali's "jokes"!

[Replay]

I don't know...playing my cards close to the vest and acting like you for once...not really my style, but at least in terms of dealing with you, it seems to be working pretty well, Kali. But I'll tell you what - tell me more about "The Order" and I'll let you know how you were informative here.

[kali o.]

Well, there is at least a 33% chance I am a werewolf, so maybe.

[Replay]

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[Replay]

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[kali o.]

Hmmm...sounds about as reasoned as any of your other theories

Anyway, wake me up when u decide to follow through on your offer of civil discourse.

[Replay]

Hmmm...sounds about as reasoned as any of your other theories

Zing! He's on a roll folks, he'll be here all week.

Anyway, wake me up when u decide to follow through on your offer of civil discourse.

You wake me up when you do, Mr. I-Could-Kill-You-I-Could-Rape-You-I-Could-Paint-You-In-The-Nude. I already told you my terms for a further exchange of information.

[Replay]

Like I said - I got what I wanted already.

[kali o.]

Like I said - I got what I wanted already.

So you keep asserting for some reason...

Btw - what terms did yoi provide? I may have missed it, I apologize.

[Replay]

I don't know...playing my cards close to the vest and acting like you for once...not really my style, but at least in terms of dealing with you, it seems to be working pretty well, Kali. But I'll tell you what - tell me more about "The Order" and I'll let you know how you were informative here.

[kali o.]

Oh, ok, the Order comment was a tongue in cheek mockery reply to your long post. The non-serious nature of that reply was evident to every single other person in the universe...save one I guess.

That settled...quid pro quo.

[Replay]

Tsk.

Here you are, back to "Everything was just a joke."

And here I thought we were getting somewhere.

Do you know why I profoundly dislike you?

Because you are incapable of even the most basic honesty - here, with us, with yourself.

Because you acquire your wealth by making others homeless - and because I take care of the homeless on the streets from time to time, wondering why there are so many of them, wondering what kind of heartless maggot enjoys putting others out of their homes.

Because you have a deep-seated inability to feel any kind of compassion for anyone but yourself and your friends; indeed you seem to delight in cruelty from time to time. I do wonder what kind of abuse you suffered as a child.

There is no doubt you'll continue to grandstand here and play the charismatic jokester for the community - even though after your "I could have you killed" joke here, people for once seem reluctant to hop on board the bully train.

I'll tell you right now though - you want information on how fully informative you were to me here, then have a real conversation.

Quid pro quo, indeed. This for that. You want information, then give it. You can message me privately if you're really too terrified to be real in front of the community that worships you to this day, for reasons I have never been quite able to fathom. What you cannot do is backpedal and hide behind your usual routine.

[kali o.]

So...umm...no quid pro quo then?

Not very ethical of you...you made a promise. /shrug

PS - isnt it clear by now that everyone in this community has been vastly enriched by my international dealings? Hell, most of them do not even have to work anymore. How can you not put this together without me having to spell it out....?

[Replay]

So...umm...no quid pro quo then?

Not very ethical of you...you made a promise. /shrug

Sure, clearly that's what's unethical here.

PS - isnt it clear by now that everyone in this community has been vastly enriched by my international dealings? Hell, most of them do not even have to work anymore. How can you not put this together without me having to spell it out....?

Yet, somehow, they claim not even to know your name...so either you're lying or they are. Which is it? That's more information than you've been willing to venture so far, so you might get a response from me after all...but not quite enough. Sure - go ahead - spell it out.