The Shrine

<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I got a call from my real estate agent tonight and the house I bid on (#4) got accepted. Buying my first house. Settles end of April (assuming all goes well from here on out) Woohoo!</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Grats :) We'll be buying a house hopefully by the end of the year. What kind of deals did you get as a first time home buyer? Any advice youd lie to share? :)</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Grats :) We'll be buying a house hopefully by the end of the year. What kind of deals did you get as a first time home buyer? Any advice youd like to share? :)</div>

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>What? Are you auction for houses?</div>

<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>It's a sellers market around here, so you offer what you think will be the best offer and hope you get it.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>In Northern Virginia the market has gotten crazy for houses and townhouses in the 250k - 350k range. We just put a contract on our third townhouse yesterday.

The first one went on the market on a Saturday, we looked at it on Sat and saw that they were going to have an open house on Sunday. We decided that before we put a contract down we would go see it again on Sun, but the house ended up selling on Sat afternoon and they of course cancelled the open house.

The second house said on the multiple listing that it would review contracts on a Wed, it went on the listing on a Sun. We saw it and put a contract down that was 10k over the list price. We found out on Wed that there were 18 contracts on this place and our contract wasnt even close to being the best price.

This third one has a "Will review contracts on Tuesday" thing so we are not getting our hopes up yet. It's not as good location as #2 so we think there will be only 5 contracts or so.

The holding off on reviewing contracts its getting be both a norm and a pain in my ass. Buying a house shouldnt have this much competition. Its supposed to be putting in a contract, not putting in a bid...

People at my work just laugh and say they remember how people used to be excited to get 2 contracts on a house and would jump for joy if one of them was offering list price. The market today is just plain stupid. Although in NoVa it doesnt look like its slowing down and i have no choice but to get in now or pay even higher prices a couple years from now. The housing prices are increasing more then my yearly raises would be so renting and waiting would not make sense. My only hope is that interest rates dont go up to 8 or 9 in a few years forcing the housing prices to go back down and me and my wife losing money in the future :/</div>

<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>250k for a TH is ridiculous. There's no excuse for a townhouse going for that much. I mean, 180k for one is a lot, IMO. Of course, that's around here in MD and I have no idea what the market is like in VA. Just move down here. :) You can get a nice size single family home for 250k.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>How does one plan to get a house in time with the rental contract? My contract ends in Sept. and I don't want to be paying double rent or being homeless for a few months.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>What the fuck? I don't have the cash to pay 250K for a house! I'm thinking 100K tops.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>luckily our apartment lease is month to month after the initial one year contract, but if we had to eat a few thousand and pay rent+mortage for a few months it wouldnt be the end of the world, especially if we got a place we liked.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>I complain about the prices all the time and we always talk about moving to a new state and all once we get a good savings and i feel as if i have enough experience from my first job to be able to get another one easily enough. Although, even though housing prices are super high here, the average salary is a lot higher, too. So i would defenitely be taking a pay cut to move out.

When we first started looking we were niave and thought we could find a single family detatched house for 250ish, and we could for a 1 story rambler with 3 bedrooms and 1 bathroom that is smaller then our current apartment in square feet and 45 minutes away from our jobs... so we started looking at townhouses since we could get more and be closer in. When i interned for this accounting firm i lived with my parents and it took me an hour to get the 20 miles to work everyday which i HATED. I vowed to never have to commute more than 30 minutes again when i graduated and moved out. Well, after the internship they hired me and me and Kim rented just down the road and i've had a 10 min commute for the last 6 months. We tried to find something in McLean but this area is full of rich snobs and the townhouses easily go for 400+. A great place for an accounting firm, but a terrible place for a young couple to find a first house.

If we get this most recent house we put a contract on we'll be 25-35 minutes away, its the best compromise for price/distance we could find.

It sounds so stupid to move further out and essentially double our rent payments just for the sake of owning a house, but i do believe that we will make money on this place in the future sine NoVa just keeps getting more and more crowded. Plus, i loathe signing my name on that rent check every month. It just goes right out the window, not improving my net equity at all. At least with mortgage payments you have the opportunity to get it back.</div>

<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Exactly. That's why I have been living at home and looking around so I wasn't paying rent.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>If anything we can start looking soon, or talk with a realator for advice on procedures, etc. I dont think our landlord will allow us to go month to month, and I dont want to get an apt, or move in with any of our parents for a couple months.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Our landlord doesnt like us very much (long story Im not getting in to) and once our lease is up, Im sure we're outta there. Id hate to move to an apt or parents for a few months and then move again into a house.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>This is KY, cost of living is cheaper here than most places. I was actually looking at 80K max, but if you wanna go 100K Im fine with that :)</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Aaah, to live in an area with affordable housing near work. Must be nice... ;)</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>yeah, better early in your lease and lose a a thousand bucks or so than late. You should start looking early spring.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>Well, we just lost again on our latest contract. We offered way over list and there was still a better offer, this is getting frustrating for us!</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Disadvantages of paying rent

-Not yours own.
-Don't build equity like you would with something you own.

Advantages
- You're more mobile
- Landlord takes care of problems
- Probably won't have to commute from Alaska to get anywhere interesting.
- It's not like you start building up significant equity until after about 5 years in a house anyway (before then it's mostly just interest, none of which counts towards your equity). So unless you plan to stay for a while, renting is actually cheaper.

Maybe buying is the right choice in your situation, but I wouldn't do it because renting is "throwing money out the window"(which it's not).</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>You get your interest payments back on your tax return, but then you pay property tax... still the deduction is far greater. I do like being close to all the good restaurants and action, though. It's a toss up at this point if we will continue to house hunt. Losing 3 in a row is beating us down.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>I put $20,000 down on my condo to get the mortage down to $1,241 a month, including condo fee. In 2 yrs when the Mortgage Insurance is paid off, I'll refi and rent the place out for $1,400 to people like Flip. =8^D</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Our condo community is only a 25 minute MARC train ride to Washington DC (or green or orange Metro). 1100 sq feet, 2 bedroom, 2 full baths for $180,000.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>I'll make sure to call you everyday with stuff that needs to be fixed. Sure you want to be a rental property owner? Tenants can be bitches :)</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Actually, you'll be speaking with my Real Estate Agent. =8^) Homie don't play dat no mo'. =8^)</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>You don't get it all back. If I recall correctly (which I'm probably not), it doesn't even count until you hit like the 5K mark. But it's one of many considerations as you said.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Sweet. Where'd you get a condo at? I've been batting around the idea of a condo, but I haven't lived in a place long enough to make it worthwile...</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Well, that answers my last post. A DC are condo for 180K is a good price. So how many crack dealers do you have to pass on the way to the mailbox? :)</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>That's true, you don't get it all back. Basically, the interest part of the mortgage payments is tax-deductible, so with low or no exemptions, in the early part of mortgages, one can get nice things like $4500+ tax returns - which one can then use to buy nice things like 57" TVs. =)</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Just because it's deduced, doesn't mean you get it back. I think this "minor" point is being missed...I should be charging you people... ;)</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>In a hypothetical situation...

If your adjusted gross income is 30,000 and you take your standard deduction is 4,750 you have a taxable income of 25,250 and you are in the 15% tax bracket, you owe 3,787.50.

Now if your AGI is 30,000 and you itemize your deuctions because you have a 300,000 mortgage at 6.25% for 30 years; thats 18,650 of interest you paid in the first year. Now your taxable income is 11,350 and your still in the 15% bracket, but you owe 1,702.50... a difference of 2,085.

A 300,000 loan at 6.25% is monthly payments of roughly 1,800, so if your renting for around that much its better to find a house. In fact its almost always better to find a house where the mortgage payments would equal your rent in my opinion.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Seriously..that is nutz...180K here can get you a very sweet house. That could get you a mansion just outside of town.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>That's an insane scenario. Who earns 30 grand a year and has $300,000 mortgage?! I think loan officers have been shot for less...:)</div>

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Where do you live? I'll be sure to avoid such insane cost of living.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>well if you upped the income to 80,000 it would put you in a higher tax bracket and would further your savings. :)</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Kevlar and stealth! =8^)</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Okay, first, let's note the first sentence of my post.

"That's true, you don't get it all back."

You're right! I'm AGREEING with you, you dope! =)

Secondly, the scenario I described in my post was not some vague guess, it was from personal experience. I bought my condo in January of last year, so my itemized deductions for the year went something like this:

State taxes: $3419
Real Estate taxes: $1505
Mortgage interest: $10527
Points (there's a whole bunch of criteria you have to pass to claim your entire point the first year, and I could): $2115

Total deductions: $17566

And when I subtracted the deductions from my income and then used the tax tables in the IRS book, I got a number that was about $4800 less than the "income tax withheld" from my W-2. Hence a nice, big, fat tax return. Simple as that.

And THAT'S how it works.

<i>-57</i></div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>well if you upped the income to 80,000 it would put you in a higher tax bracket and would further your savings.  :) I dont know why i used 30k, just grabbed a number out of the air. 80k would be more liekly to qualify for a 300k loan.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>With that $12,000+ dollars in interest and taxes (probably like $13000+ with principle), you could have bought a garage full of 57" TVs or invested in securities to make even more money than the rate that your equity builds in your home. You just wouldn't get that extra $5K of your own money back from the government to buy a 57" TV. :)

I guess I'm saying that tax savings alone is a *bad* reason to buy a house.</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>You can save money by being in a higher tax bracked? How does that work? :)</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>say AGI is 90,000 now with everything else equal from the last example...

1: 90,000 - 4,750 (standard deduction) = 85,250 (taxable income) * .28 (tax bracket) = 23,870 tax owed

2: 90,000 - 18,650 (interest paid in year 1) = 71,350 * .28 = 19,978 tax owed

Now you've saved $3,892 instead of 2,085 as in my earlier example with AGI of 30,000. The higher tax bracket makes each deduction worth the differnce in percentages.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>All I wanted to do was clarify what went on with the whole "interest as tax break" thing, and I don't think anyone here - least of all me - made any claim as stupid as tax savings ALONE being a sufficient reason to buy a house instead of rent.

However, I must point out that when you made your little "you would have had $13000 to invest elsewhere" argument, you forgot one very, very important thing - <i>my interest + principal payments are integrated into my cost of living.</i> That means I get tax breaks and build equity *while* I'm paying to live in my house! Your argument only works if you figure my hypothetical alternative cost of living to be zero, like if I was living at my parents' house or performing various acts of sexual deviance for hot dominatrices in exchange for rent payments.

And to get back to the post you made that originally started this whole argument, there is some truth to the argument that paying rent is like throwing your money away, because once you give that check to your landlord, you will never see any portion of that money again. It's as simple as that.

But, it's equally as valid that buying is not a viable option for a lot of people. While it's true that mortgage payments are an investment and rent payments are not, you sacrifice a lot of things in order to get a return on that investment. Closing costs (which you pay when you buy, refinance, or sell, and you don't get any return on them) are pretty big chunks of change, not to mention the fact that you lose a lot of flexibility when you buy a house (moving is nowhere near as simple as finding a new place before the lease runs out). And, it's true that you probably only want to buy if you're going to stick around somewhere for a long time - at least five years - because it's not really worth the hassle otherwise.

Myself, I figured that I was in a situation where I was planning to stick around one place for a while, so I lived at home and went into major saving mode for a year before I was able to swing a big enough down payment (which I'll get back in its entirety someday, plus whatever else I've put into the principal). Now every payment I make is mostly the bank making sick amounts of money off of me, but at least the tax benefits take some of that sting away, and as the years go by more and more of my payment will be going towards the principal- which reminds me of the last thing I'm going to mention. When you buy a house, there's the possibility - however remote, however unlikely - that someday the entire thing will be paid off and you won't have to pay for the privelege to have a roof over your head any more.

A renter doesn't have that chance.

<i>-57</i></div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>

All I wanted to do was clarify what went on with the whole "interest as tax break" thing, and I don't think anyone here - least of all me - made any claim as stupid as tax savings ALONE being a sufficient reason to buy a house instead of rent.

True, no one said that. That was the feeling was getting though and I find it's a feeling that a lot of people have.
But you're right, I can't assume that's what you think.

However, I must point out that when you made your little "you would have had $13000 to invest elsewhere" argument, you forgot one very, very important thing - <i>my interest + principal payments are integrated into my cost of living.</i> That means I get tax breaks and build equity *while* I'm paying to live in my house! Your argument only works if you figure my hypothetical alternative cost of living to be zero, like if I was living at my parents' house or performing various acts of sexual deviance for hot dominatrices in exchange for rent payments.

My example was bad, but not quite for the reason you gave. The bad part as you mentioned is that it assumes a cost of living of zero, which is crazy. You'd (presumably) still be paying rent somewhere else (though performing acts of sexual deviance for hot dominatrices can be tough because not many dominatrices are very hot :) ).

But the part that hasn't been mention is that you'll be paying more in mortgage payments than you would in rent, thus leaving you with less disposable income, even after tax deductions are taken into account. As you said though, my earlier example assumed a cost of living of zero, but the point is the same (less disposable income). However, now you'd only be able to buy small room full of 57" TVs, instead of garage full. :)

And building equity in your house is good thing. However, it's also possible that you'd build more money by investing that extra cash you put in mortgage payments by investing in something else (business, securities, land, etc) AND it's possible that the value of your house can go *down*. So yeah you're building equity in your house, but that won't automatically make your net worth (dollars wise) higher than someone who isn't building home equity.

And to get back to the post you made that originally started this whole argument, there is some truth to the argument that paying rent is like throwing your money away, because once you give that check to your landlord, you will never see any portion of that money again. It's as simple as that.

No it's not. You get a roof over your head and annoying issues around the house dealt with by a landlord. And as I said before, if you're good with investing your money, it's possible you could invest the difference between rent and mortgage interest payment deductions to more than make up the money you'd get for any possible tax deductions.

I'm not arguing against home ownership. For a lot of poeple (maybe most) it's probably the way to go. I just think people think it's more cut and dry than it really is.

But, it's equally as valid that buying is not a viable option for a lot of people. While it's true that mortgage payments are an investment and rent payments are not, you sacrifice a lot of things in order to get a return on that investment. Closing costs (which you pay when you buy, refinance, or sell, and you don't get any return on them) are pretty big chunks of change, not to mention the fact that you lose a lot of flexibility when you buy a house (moving is nowhere near as simple as finding a new place before the lease runs out). And, it's true that you probably only want to buy if you're going to stick around somewhere for a long time - at least five years - because it's not really worth the hassle otherwise.

The principle part of mortgage payements are the investment. The interest is what you pay the loaning institution for the pleasure of borrowing their money. Sure you get a tax break, but like I've said many times before -- that only matters money from the tax break doesn't beat the money you could have earned on another investment. But you do mention a lot of other good points.

Myself, I figured that I was in a situation where I was planning to stick around one place for a while, so I lived at home and went into major saving mode for a year before I was able to swing a big enough down payment (which I'll get back in its entirety someday, plus whatever else I've put into the principal). Now every payment I make is mostly the bank making sick amounts of money off of me, but at least the tax benefits take some of that sting away, and as the years go by more and more of my payment will be going towards the principal- which reminds me of the last thing I'm going to mention. When you buy a house, there's the possibility - however remote, however unlikely - that someday the entire thing will be paid off and you won't have to pay for the privelege to have a roof over your head any more.

A renter doesn't have that chance.

Yes it's true that in 30 years you may actually own "your" house while a renter will never own their apartment. Touche and nice way to end a post. ;)

However, in 30 years with smart investing with the money saved from not paying off the house, the renter may be able to buy block the mortgage payer lives on and turn it into a strip club. Let's not forget!

A mortgage payer doesn't have that chance. :)</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>

All I wanted to do was clarify what went on with the whole "interest as tax break" thing, and I don't think anyone here - least of all me - made any claim as stupid as tax savings ALONE being a sufficient reason to buy a house instead of rent.

True, no one said that. That was the feeling was getting though and I find it's a feeling that a lot of people have.
But you're right, I can't assume that's what you think.

However, I must point out that when you made your little "you would have had $13000 to invest elsewhere" argument, you forgot one very, very important thing - <i>my interest + principal payments are integrated into my cost of living.</i> That means I get tax breaks and build equity *while* I'm paying to live in my house! Your argument only works if you figure my hypothetical alternative cost of living to be zero, like if I was living at my parents' house or performing various acts of sexual deviance for hot dominatrices in exchange for rent payments.

My example was bad, but not quite for the reason you gave. The bad part as you mentioned is that it assumes a cost of living of zero, which is crazy. You'd (presumably) still be paying rent somewhere else (though performing acts of sexual deviance for hot dominatrices can be tough because not many dominatrices are very hot :) ).

But the part that hasn't been mention is that you'll be paying more in mortgage payments than you would in rent, thus leaving you with less disposable income, even after tax deductions are taken into account. As you said though, my earlier example assumed a cost of living of zero, but the point is the same (less disposable income). However, now you'd only be able to buy small room full of 57" TVs, instead of garage full. :)

And building equity in your house is good thing. However, it's also possible that you'd build more money by investing that extra cash you put in mortgage payments by investing in something else (business, securities, land, etc) AND it's possible that the value of your house can go *down*. So yeah you're building equity in your house, but that won't automatically make your net worth (dollars wise) higher than someone who isn't building home equity.

And to get back to the post you made that originally started this whole argument, there is some truth to the argument that paying rent is like throwing your money away, because once you give that check to your landlord, you will never see any portion of that money again. It's as simple as that.

No it's not. You get a roof over your head and annoying issues around the house dealt with by a landlord. And as I said before, if you're good with investing your money, it's possible you could invest the difference between rent and mortgage interest payment deductions to more than make up the money you'd get for any possible tax deductions.

I'm not arguing against home ownership. For a lot of poeple (maybe most) it's probably the way to go. I just think people think it's more cut and dry than it really is.

But, it's equally as valid that buying is not a viable option for a lot of people. While it's true that mortgage payments are an investment and rent payments are not, you sacrifice a lot of things in order to get a return on that investment. Closing costs (which you pay when you buy, refinance, or sell, and you don't get any return on them) are pretty big chunks of change, not to mention the fact that you lose a lot of flexibility when you buy a house (moving is nowhere near as simple as finding a new place before the lease runs out). And, it's true that you probably only want to buy if you're going to stick around somewhere for a long time - at least five years - because it's not really worth the hassle otherwise.

The principle part of mortgage payements are the investment. The interest is what you pay the loaning institution for the pleasure of borrowing their money. Sure you get a tax break, but like I've said many times before -- that only matters money from the tax break doesn't beat the money you could have earned on another investment. But you do mention a lot of other good points.

Myself, I figured that I was in a situation where I was planning to stick around one place for a while, so I lived at home and went into major saving mode for a year before I was able to swing a big enough down payment (which I'll get back in its entirety someday, plus whatever else I've put into the principal). Now every payment I make is mostly the bank making sick amounts of money off of me, but at least the tax benefits take some of that sting away, and as the years go by more and more of my payment will be going towards the principal- which reminds me of the last thing I'm going to mention. When you buy a house, there's the possibility - however remote, however unlikely - that someday the entire thing will be paid off and you won't have to pay for the privelege to have a roof over your head any more.

A renter doesn't have that chance.

Yes it's true that in 30 years you may actually own "your" house while a renter will never own their apartment. Touche and nice way to end a post. ;)

However, in 30 years with smart investing with the money saved from not paying off the house, the renter may be able to buy block the mortgage payer lives on and turn it into a strip club. Let's not forget!

A mortgage payer doesn't have that chance. :)</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>but in a market like that its hard to find stocks that can grow that fast. Granted, there is no way the housing prices up here can continue to climb that much every year, but who knows what can happen.

Your explanation mirrors my situation almost exactlty, i currently rent for 1100 and am looking at houses that would force my mortgage to be around 2000. Can i make more money by continuing to rent and investing the other 900? Or would the combination of tax savings and overall house accretion make up for the difference in monthly payments?...

In addition, i am paying more money a month to move further away from my job and all the good stuff Tysons/McLean has to offer! Now i need to toss in gas into the equation to further complicate things!

I wish someone would just give me a house in McLean, then i'd be happy :)</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>

But the part that hasn't been mention is that you'll be paying more in mortgage payments than you would in rent, thus leaving you with less disposable income, even after tax deductions are taken into account. As you said though, my earlier example assumed a cost of living of zero, but the point is the same (less disposable income). However, now you'd only be able to buy small room full of 57" TVs, instead of garage full. :)

While your argument has a lot of merit to it, here's where I disagree with you, insofar that I don't believe that it is necessarily true that one will spend more money (or, at the very least, substantially more money) in mortgage payments than one would in rent.

The apartment I lived in previous to moving home was a 2 bed, 1 bath with a non-private deck, driveway parking that I shared with two other cars, I lived underneath a family with two kids, and it cost $1500/month. Currently, I live in a 2 bed, 1.5 bath townhouse with private deck, garage, and nobody above or below me for $1655/month (including condo fee which includes snow removal, which is quite important up here).

In fact, I just hopped on to boston.com, searched for apartments for rent in my town, and actually found a listing there in my complex - and every unit in my complex is exactly the same - whose monthly rent is $1550. The listing isn't very detailed so I don't know if it includes condo fee, but even if it does that means that it's only $105 cheaper in that case. And let's not even bother discussing what would happen if I tried to get a 2 bedroom apartment with deck and garage closer to Boston.

All I'm trying to say is that I do not agree with your assumption that renting is unilaterally cheaper than paying off a mortgage.

You get [...] annoying issues around the house dealt with by a landlord.

True - you've mentioned this several times now. What you haven't yet seemed to consider is that this is a double-edged sword.

For example, the landlord I had at my last apartment was a complete and utter pain in the ass to even get a hold of, let alone deal with once I finally did so.

And what happens if something major breaks like a refrigerator, a stove, or a heater? You're stuck until your landlord gets around to fixing the problem or buying a new one, and in that case you don't have a single say in the matter of what they end up getting.

I'm not arguing against home ownership. For a lot of poeple (maybe most) it's probably the way to go. I just think people think it's more cut and dry than it really is.

Of course it's not as cut and dry as people think it is. And I'm not arguing against renting either, it has its merits. But there weren't enough perceived benefits in it for me to continue doing it.

You also had a cute way of ending your post, but since I disagreed with the principle you based your entire post on from the very beginning, there isn't much of a way for me to reply to it now. =)

<i>-57</i></div>

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While your argument has a lot of merit to it, here's where I disagree with you, insofar that I don't believe that it is necessarily true that one will spend more money (or, at the very least, substantially more money) in mortgage payments than one would in rent.

The apartment I lived in previous to moving home was a 2 bed, 1 bath with a non-private deck, driveway parking that I shared with two other cars, I lived underneath a family with two kids, and it cost $1500/month. Currently, I live in a 2 bed, 1.5 bath townhouse with private deck, garage, and nobody above or below me for $1655/month (including condo fee which includes snow removal, which is quite important up here).

99.9% of the time, you're not going to find apartments in the same area as houses renting for only $150 less than mortgage payements. Everybody would just buy a house!

And it probably doesn't really apply to your case either. I'm guessing you live a good distance from where your $1500/month (ouch) apartment was.

If it *does* apply to your situation, you are the 0.1%.

All I'm trying to say is that I do not agree with your assumption that renting is unilaterally cheaper than paying off a mortgage.

Of course it's not. It depends on how much you're willing to give to find a place where you'd pay a similiar mortgage. However, I am assuming most people want to live in a house/neighboorhood/location similiar to what they're used to with their apartments. In that case it *is* universally more expensive.

You get [...] annoying issues around the house dealt with by a landlord.

True - you've mentioned this several times now. What you haven't yet seemed to consider is that this is a double-edged sword.

Actually it was twice in like 50 posts of 8,000 words each, but who's counting? :)

For example, the landlord I had at my last apartment was a complete and utter pain in the ass to even get a hold of, let alone deal with once I finally did so.

And what happens if something major breaks like a refrigerator, a stove, or a heater? You're stuck until your landlord gets around to fixing the problem or buying a new one, and in that case you don't have a single say in the matter of what they end up getting.

Sure you have rights. There are laws protecting your rights as a renter and forcing landlords to do the job they're supposed to do as landlords.

You also had a cute way of ending your post, but since I disagreed with the principle you based your entire post on from the very beginning, there isn't much of a way for me to reply to it now. =)

If I lived in the same real estate wormhole as you, I'd disagree with me too.

(See? I always have a cute way of ending posts, though admitting it kinda takes away from the effect. :) )</div>