OK, I fuckin admit it, I'm dying over here.

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>I've been with a girl for the past 3 years of my life. I fucking loved her to death. I'd given up my player license for her, I did everything for this girl, I centered my life around making her happy, and I just fucking did everything to make sure she was happy, that she never had to 2nd guess whether or not I was the one for her. I fucking love this girl, I still do. She was my heart, my air, my happiness, my fucking everything!

We broke up 3 weeks ago...

Before that 2 months ago she expressed a desire to stop having sex. I know, this was a red fucking flag right there. But I believed her because I always knew she felt guilty about having sex, because she's religous, fuck I didn't believe in god before I met her, she brought god into my life. So because I was in love, because I trusted we'd be together, because I was so fucking stupid, I let it be. My friends and her friends both throught that it wasn't best to pressure somebody into sex when they have their spirital reasons for taking it away.

So she breaks up with me and three weeks afterwards I find out she's fucking somebody else. They say nobody ever expects it to happen to them, well they're right, you don't. Every waking moment of my life since I found out I've been thinking about it, I've tried to throw myself into things, but I don't have a fucking job right now. It's 4:00 in the morning here and all I can think about is her making love to somebody else, moaning for somebody else, cumming for somebody else, sucking somebody else's dick. She fell for this person while we were together, she allowed her self to fall for somebody else while we were together, she lied to me about her reasons for wanting to stop having sex, now I know she really wanted to stop because she was loving somebody else, as soon as we broke up she was going by his house at night, I being stupid, just believed she was going to be there, you know, dating other people, trying to get over me.

But now I know how stupid I was, she's BEEN fucking her since the 3rd day we broke up, she wore this sexy red dress that I bought her to go see this fucking nigga with and she showed it off and stayed with him until 1:00AM in the morning, how do I know? Because before she went to his house she came by me and told me she wore it for me. She wanted me to see it on her to cheer me up because I was upset we broke up. As soon as she left me she went by him, was with him until 1 o clock. Now I know what went down.

I didn't know anything about the sex, or how serious she was about him but everything fell together like a fucking crossword puzzle. She told me she was spending the night at one of her friend's houses, one that lives in Baton Rouge. I was like ok, but later I called her and she's by this same friend's house AGAIN. She told me she had no desire to spend the night at her parent's house because they were arguing so she was gonna spend the night at Jane Doe's house. I know how she fucking operates, we used to tell people that she was spending the night at her friend's house so she could come spend the night with me. So I call her at 10 and I'm like call me when you leave your friend's house because in my head I'm thinking "She's already gonna spend the night by another dude? No way.." So she calls me at 12:00 midnight, and she's like "OK, calm down, I'm at Jane's house." So I'm like "Let me speak to Jane", she refuses, I ask again, and again and again, getting responces such as "You're just like my father not trusting me." or "I don't have to prove anything for you." Basically she couldn't give the phone to Jane cause she wasn't with Jane she finally broke it down and said she's still at a boy's house.

I WAS FUCKING DEVISTATED. I yelled at her, "HOW THE FUCK COULD YOU BE DOING THAT WITH SOMEBODY ELSE?! WE JUST BROKE UP LESS THEN A MONTH AGO! LESS THEN THREE WEEKS AGO!" Just thinking about it makes me want to kill somebody. She didn't have an answer for me, she rushed me off the phone. Then my father got in my face because I had used his phone to call her, and he was yelling at me, I was in such a bad mood I started yelling back. I cursed, and he asked me how I could curse and yell at him in his own house, and I yelled out loud "BECAUSE MY FUCKING GIRL IS OUT FUCKING SOMEBODY ELSE! DAMN!" I threw the trash can accross the kitchen, I shattered the glass dinner table, he tried to grab me to calm me down and I pushed him off me, we started fist fighting, he hit the fucking ground and my mom had to pull me off of him. As soon as he hit the ground I was in tears crying. I cried for a good hour, with nothing or nobody to hold me. My father wasn't talking to me, and my mom didn't know what to say.

I think about this shit every waking moment since it happened, I'm up right now because I can't fucking sleep, I'm dying over here, I want to forget, I feel so betrayed, I feel so stupid, I believed in love, and it just fucked me clean over! I loved this girl, I was pricing rings, I wanted a future with her, and now she's out fucking this other dude without a care in the world. She doesn't care about me anymore, she let herself fall for somebody else, and I don't know what to do. I miss the fuck out of her, I don't care what she's done I still fucking want her back. I feel I should have my intergity to worry about, but fuck man I don't care, I feel so alone right now. ALL of my friends are working, I'm alone at home with no job because I was planning to spend the summer messing with her taking 2 summer classes. I can't indulge myself into anything, I've tried hanging with other people, but I just keep thinking about it, I want to fucking kill myself! I'm seriously suicidal over here, and I don't know what to do, I'm fucking 20 years old, I'm young, I was popular in high school, I was a player, I had just about everything, and I made this girl my world and now.....now I'm just depressed, I'm beyond depressed, I'm devistated, I don't know what to do with myself, I'm trying to find things to do to keep my mind off it, but again it keeps creeping in! I just keep seeing her making love to somebody else, my every waking moment, in my dreams, everywhere. How do I get over this pain?! What am I supposed to do. I'm crying while I write this because I feel so humiliated, I'm reaching out to guys because I consider you to be friends, online friends I've known for many years, longer then her, so I need you guys to help me now. Tell me what to do, please.

I'm begging you.... -_-</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Ask Kupek.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>You're 20, so you have plenty of time left to find somebody. But, that still doesn't help the pain of right now. The pain is not easy to get rid of.

Finding something to do is important. See if you can go to a gym, or exercise in some way. Write. You seem to be doing a good job so far. Just write your ass off. Rant on and on in a blog or something, or even some private web page you'll never publish. Find something to watch that relates to the situation. Go rent Eddie Murphy's RAW. (He did that show right after he had a major breakup.)

And, I'd have to say that was a pretty fucked up thing for her to do. The person doing the cheating doesn't have much in terms of a falldown period, so I doubt she's feeling much pain. Let's just hope that her karma kick her in the ass later on.

Sorry if I'm not much help. I've had a lot of pain from rejection and lovesickness, but never had such an extreme dropoff (ie: 2-3 years) from breaking up.</div>

[Torgo]

<div style='font: 9pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I'm not that good at giving advice, but the best thing I can suggest is to do some things to get your mind off the pain. I agree with Sine. Find ways to vent. If you feel like beating someone up try the punching bag at the gym. Anything's better than sulking. That usually just makes the pain fester and makes you feel even worse.

Life may feel like shit right now, but you're only 20(actually, I thought you were around my age, 21-23). I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, but that's a fairly young age. There are lots of older people who have gone through worse and moved on. You probably couldn't care less about them, but the point I'm trying to make is you can get over this. I can't guarantee that life'll be better from now on, but I guess the only thing you can do is learn from this experience.

If things start to get really bad(like say, actual suicide attempts), there's nothing wrong with seeking professional help. I know people who have gone through it and believe they're better people because of it.

But that's just my two cents. Other people will likely have better suggestions.</div>

[G-man Joe]

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>....don't take your frustrations out on your parents. They're there to try to understand you and to calm you down. You never hurt the people who would never try to hurt you, especially over a girl. These things happen sometimes but you never let that situation ruin your family.

Calm down. Relax. I know you're hurt but damn, how do you think your father feels now? What about your mom? You let this girl make you hit your dad? You anger should be at her, not your father or mother. Try not to dwell on this coz this only causes you to hate the girl coz now you're gonna think she ruined your life. In fact, it was you who over reacted when you hit your father.

Calm down.</div>

[G-man Joe]

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>This might be Eric's brother.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>No, I wasn't this bad.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I know it sounds strange, but something feels good about righteous anger. Unequivocally, you were wronged. You did nothing wrong, <i>you</i> were wronged. When I went through something similar (but I venture not as bad), I took a twisted sort of comfort in that. (Basically, I fell in love with a girl and she replaced me. Then I could never get away because she's my neighbor.) I don't know if that's healthy or not, but I was angry for a long time, <i>and I liked it</i>. When you're angry, you don't hurt. I don't know if that's good, but that's basically what I did. I lifted weights like crazy. I'd go to the gym, think bad thoughts, and crank out sets. That all went down near the end of last October, and it wasn't until recently that I don't lift angry.

You were betrayed, and it's going to hurt for a long time. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true. You're going to be angry, confused and hurt, and it will take you a long time before you're not. That's what we go through. It's the risk we take by falling in love.

And I know you still love her, and that's the hardest part. Because you're trying to reconcile two things: you still want her so bad it hurts, but you can't imagine how it would work because she <i>betrayed</i> you. That will bother you for a long time, and that's okay. And the kicker is, you'll never really stop loving her. You'll always love her, on some level. But eventually, there won't be any conflict: you'll recognize that you and her could never be the same, and you will no longer want to be with her. But you'll still love her; we never stop loving people.

This is the grieving process. You're going to go through many of the same emotions that you would if someone you love died.

My advice... reconcile with your parents. Explain to them what happened, how you were betrayed, and that you were just out of control. I'm sure you scared them. You probably scared yourself. Talking to them will help. They're your <i>parents</i>. She betrayed you; they won't. When we're like this, we need emotional support. I could never have made it through what I went through if I couldn't have talked to people. That's how I kept my fucking sanity. Talk to your friends. Start exercising - you need to put all of that anger somewhere.

Hmmm. Time out. I just realized that in your account, you never actually confirm that she's having sex with the guy. Yeah, she definitely betrayed you, but how are you sure that she's fucking him? I ask because that mental image is not something you want to hang on to. If it's not true, then you don't have to.

I can't say I know exactly how you feel. But I do have an idea. Fall semester, I fell in love with my neighbor. Her and I had a level of honesty I had not achieved with any other girl I had fallen for. It was a level of honesty I only have with best friends I've had for years that have been put to the test. Maybe even more than that. But she was scared. She had been hurt, hurt bad, before, and she was scared of being hurt like that again. She was scared of falling in love with me. So we ended it, and tried to remain friends. Before she ended it, she told me that she was not going to date anyone else. She told me that to make me feel better. I told her that I was willing to wait. About two weeks later, due to circumstances, we slipped and started acting like a couple. Nothing physical, we just started spending a lot of time together in a couple-like way.

The weekend after we slipped, she started dating a guy she had dated before again. I know this because I could see his car every goddamn day. And two days later, she confirmed it.

The next day was the angriest day of my life.

I've had some angry days. I've had some good reasons to be angry before. But I had never experienced anything like this. I was having to stop myself from breaking everything in sight. I got so angry I scared myself. My anger was so primal, so huge, so <i>right</i> that I actually got scared about what was happening to me. I might have been able to control my actions, but I couldn't control the anger itself, and it scared me.

Remember, she lives next to me. I would come home and see his car. I would go into my room, stare at the wall, and imagine them on the otherside, sleeping next to each other. He, by the way, was in my department. His desk was behind me in the office. I couldn't get away. And that was my life for weeks, and then months. The story gets more twisted and has more drama, but that's basically how it started. I'm telling this to you in the hopes that reading what someone else went through will let you know that it's alright to feel what you're feeling, and that it happens to other people, too.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Well, let me clarify. I was able to control my actions and I wasn't suicidal. And he's dealing with the end of a real relationship. Mine was only just beginning.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I'm pretty sure this is Eric. I remember him talking about this chick around 3 years ago.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I knew a friend that was friends with a chick online (in a MUD) for two years. They met at a MUD party, declared their love, and got together. After about four months, she broke up because she always breaks up after four months into it (insecurities?). He just lost it. He was never the type to show his emotion, but he was dead inside. He totally self-destructed, got a coke habit, and ran up several credit cards.

Sometimes it's not the length of the relationship, but the length of how long the two have known each other.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>No. I had first met her in August, and got to know her well during the time off we had due to the hurricane.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>September, 1999.

During tryouts for the a cappella group I was singing in at college at the time, we get blown away by this cute new transfer with an amazing voice. I was busy pining for another girl in the group at the time, so I didn't think much of her at the time besides her singing ability. Over the next couple of months, she started to like me, and after I failed miserably going after the first girl, I realized that I had another beautiful girl chasing after me, and by the end of November, a week before my 21st birthday, we were going out.

By December we were in full-fledged puppy love and I had lost my virginity to her. I took the trip to her house near Philadelphia (I'm from Massachusetts) for New Year's, and we came back for the winter semester sickeningly in love. By April we were talking marriage, in July we had finished refurbishing an old ring of her grandmother's, and I had officially proposed. I was doing everything I thought a dutiful boyfriend should do - I lent her money to pay her school bills, I helped her move from one dorm to another and basically kept half of her room in my car for three months, I even spent every waking moment I could taking care of her when she got sick with colitis (a digestive disease that essentially makes you feel like absolute shit all the time, not to mention it made sex a rather unpleasant experience for her).

I should mention now that she had a group of friends at MIT she knew from home, one of whom was a very good friend of hers - so good, in fact, that if he had been single at the time when she broke up with the boyfriend previous to me, she would have gone out with him (a point that she told me about several times). Anyway, she liked to hang out with those friends, and as I started accompanying her over there I grew to like them too. Keep that in mind.

Things were starting to deteriorate around the time I was getting ready to graduate in 2001. She still wasn't very eager for sex (and when we did have it it wasn't that great anymore), we were getting in fights more often, etc., but we were still in love and were still getting married. We had found a Unitarian church to get married in (we wanted a non-denominational ceremony), I put down a $600 deposit on a reception hall, we started drafting up guest lists, stuff like that. After I had graduated and started work we found an apartment together (close into the city so that she could take the subway in while I had a 30-45 minute drive to my job in the suburbs), and moved in on September 2nd.

On the night of the 4th, I picked her up from a visit to her friends at MIT. I mentioned that I thought she had been spending a lot of time over there (which she had, all during the summer), and told her how I thought I was starting to get jealous of her friend-that-she-would-have-gone-out-with. To which she replied, "I was wondering when that was going to happen." After a bit more back and forth, and discovering that she still had feelings for him, I told her I thought we should break up. A few tear-filled (on both sides) discussions later and we were sleeping in separate rooms in the apartment we had moved into two days before.

Then 9/11 happened, which just flat out sucked.

Then, probably about a month or so later, she started going out with her friend. And he started coming over. In December we found another friend of hers to take over my part of the lease and I moved back home. My ex and her friend are still going out.

Here's the thing, though. I was, understandably, really mad for a while. I was pissed off at the situation - I had a crappy commute, had lost the deposit on the reception hall, was paying 2/3 of the rent, and my room doubled as the living room of our apartment, so she was always in there. I had made every concession possible for this girl and did whatever I thought would make her happy, and she ended up falling for another guy anyway.

The thing is, after I moved out and some time had passed, I wasn't so mad any more. I spent two years loving this girl with all of my heart, and that doesn't just go away. In fact, they are both still pretty good friends of mine. Heck, I just sold them my old car! =)

It may be a cliche, Eric, but time really does heal all wounds.

<hr>

Now, for the part you're probably not going to want to hear, but it's the truth - domesticating yourself for this girl was probably a good portion of the reason why she fell for the other guy. Women are creatures of emotion - they thrive on it, it's what turns them on - and the great catch-22 of love is that the more dutiful, conciliatory, domesticated, and above all, predictable you are, the fewer emotions you can bring out of any one girl.

I mean, think of it from the girl's point of view. There's a guy she's been with for three years, a domesticated former player, willing to do anything to make her happy. Always there when she needs him, always willing to do exactly what she wants. Where's the excitement in that? Face it, man, it's boring, and even though she may have been in long-term love with you, ATTRACTION is a more powerful emotion than long-term love.

I capitialized ATTRACTION because it's different than what most people think of when they hear that word. For most people, attraction has something to do with physical attributes, as in "That's a good-looking, attractive person." When it comes to women, though, ATTRACTION is a powerful emotion that they feel toward a guy, it really has nothing to do with physicalness and everything to do with personality, and it's not a choice. Heck, you were a player before you got together with this girl, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. Did a girl ever tell you she had a boyfriend, and then give you her number or go home with you anyway?

The problem you had is that once you got into your relationship, you figured the attracting part was finished with and all you needed to do was play the love card. Unfortunately, as logical as that sounds, it just doesn't work, and you got burned by it. Does it suck? Of course it does. Is it all the girl's fault? No, it's not, and the sooner you realize that, the better off you're going to be. Your anger at her will melt away over time, you'll learn from your mistakes, and using your skills, you'll be able to attract a new girl when you're ready. And this time, you'll know not to be boring and predictable, and your new girl will stay hot for you as long as you want her to.

As far as everything else goes...look, you lost your head. It happens to all of us, and you did something that I'm sure you're very sorry for. Whenever you get a chance, you need to apologize to your parents. Admit that you lost control as you're still young and only human. They're your parents, I would think they'd forgive you.

Bottom line is, things are going to be fine. Will you regret how this situation got fucked up? Of course you will - occasionally, I even still do. Is it the end of the world? No, not even close.

I would take the advice the other guys have given you and find an outlet for your anger for now. I would recommend working out like Kupek said, or doing something else constructive, instead of choosing my option, which was basically to be real pissy for a couple months. =)

Either way, good luck, man. I hope I was able to help.
<i>-57</i>


P.S. One thing that helped me, and taught me basically the entire second half of this email, are the free newsletters from www.doubleyourdating.com. The practical stuff about how to talk to women and all that is probably old news to you, but the overall concepts (about attraction and the like) are something every guy should know, even the married shlubs around here.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>57, I disagree with a good chunk of that second section, but I'll have to wait until I wake up tonight.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>So do I, actually. I don't buy that women and men are that different as far as attractiveness is concerned. A physically attractive girl will get my attention, but I'm not going to fall for her unless something clicks personally. And I don't buy the "women are creatures of emtion" any more than men.</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>I didn't betray my faith or my god. While it was true, I did want
to save myself, I wasn't as strong as I thought I would be. For a
while, I was true to my promise. It was only recent that I gave into
temptation. I haven't been happy with myself, but I'm not going to
punish myself either because God will do that on his and in his own
time. I know you may think everything I say is a lie, but I'm not
here for you to judge.
You've made it plain and clear, to our frineds, that you don't want to have
anything to do with me and I'm no good. I can't apologize anymore
than I already have because I don't seriously think I've done
anything wrong since I've made it clear to you that I didn't want to
get back together. Take that message as you wish. I made a wish for
my future, and I had to make a sacrifice and that sacrifice was our
friendship.
All I have left to say is... Thank you for the good times. What
ever's meant to be will be through the grace of god.
If you have anymore questions, speak now or forever hold your
peace.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I spent a year living at home after my breakup, and bought my condo after I'd saved enough money. After I'd been living in my new house for a while, I started going to the library just down the street on Monday nights, where an absolutely beautiful girl was working the counter. One day a couple weeks later, I did a search trying to find some tips on asking her out and ended up stumbling across the web home of a seduction newsgroup, which ended up being basically the biggest depository on the net for information on how to become better with women. These guys talk about pickup like we talk about gaming. They discuss theories, test them in the field, and then post their reports about what works and what doesn't.

A former poster there by the name of David DeAngelo has spun off his own theories into a series of products at doubleyourdating.com which I mentioned previously, and is where I learned the bulk of what I think these days. Dave's materials don't talk obsessively about the lay like the newsgroup guys do - he's all about approaching and attracting women and keeping them interested (the sex follows naturally from that), and that meshed best with my attitude and what I want out of life. (Since I don't drink I'm not a party guy, I don't like going to bars, and pickups and one night stands don't appeal to me in the slightest.) I've put his concepts to use already - I met a girl at a convention I went to, successfully got her contact info, asked her out, and went out with her for a year. That year consisted basically of us seeing each other once a week or so and having sex at every opportunity - however, we weren't compatible for anything long-term, and so we broke up in April when we both got bored with the arrangement.

Here's my point. My ideas come from almost two years of reading the posts and theories of guys who either live for this kind of thing or have made it their business because it works. No offense to you and Kupek, but you're two geeks who post on a video gaming message board and as far as I know are coming from nowhere but your own geeky experiences, which, as personal experience tells me, are usually wrong. That being said, I don't begrudge you the fact that you're disagreeing with me, because before I told you all this, for all you knew *I* was just another geek who posts on a video gaming message board (which I am, but at least I know more about this sort of thing than the average geek).

Bottom line is, you two (and anybody else who disagrees) can pontificate about how wrong I am until you're all blue in the keyboard, but unless you reveal you've done even more research than I have or have done the field testing of a hundred guys, you're not going to change my mind one bit. Just trying to save you some time.

Regards,
<i>-57</i></div>

[Ishamael]

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>No time to read the whole thing right now, but I get the gist. Advice? Forget the bitch and move on. Really, it's that easy if you let it be.</div>

[G-man Joe]

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>I sort of agree with your second part. Girls this age are looking for something sponteneous and not long term. Hell, I was a player once. Now I'm married. =8^D</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Right, but the real point I was trying to make is that you can/should/have to still be spontaneous, unpredictable, and exciting even in a long-term relationship, keeping your girl attracted to you.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Right, but the real point I was trying to make is that you can/should/have to still be spontaneous, unpredictable, and exciting even in a long-term relationship to keep your girl emotionally attracted to you.</div>

[G-man Joe]

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>I've always been like that, though. Hardly a dull day in my life. All my ex's still love me.</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Man your post is real like a motherfucker, I can relate, to just about everything in that post, 2nd part is real too. She even told me we were becoming repetitive. Real real real, damn man.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Then I hope you can relate to the fact that I made it through all right, and things turned out okay, just as things will for you.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Then I hope you can relate to the fact that I made it through all right, and things turned out okay, just as things will for you. Just give it time.</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>This happened Sunday night, since then my father has forgiven me, he understands what I'm going through, and now he really really hates this girl for fucking over his son, but I didn't really want that....</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>And I suspect it's not the application of some method that worked for you, but the fact that you're probably an attractive guy who was confident. Personally, I'm interested in a relationship, not random hookups. Your theories on how women work are independent of your "successes."</div>

[G-man Joe]

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Glad things are cool with your dad. Family first, my man. Family first.</div>

[G-man Joe]

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Well, it's a learning experience. Remember....try not to dwell on it too much next time. It'll drive you nuts.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>"God will punish me so I don't have to busy myself with guilt of doing something wrong."

<i> I can't apologize anymore than I already have because I don't seriously think I've done anything wrong since I've made it clear to you that I didn't want to get back together.</i>

With my neighbor, she actually broke a promise. But if she hadn't made that promise, would what she did still be wrong? I gave it a lot of thought and concluded yes. Here's why, and I think it relates to your girl.

When we get emotionally involved with someone, our actions can (and often do) effect the other person. In relationship, you become responsible for the emtional well being of another person. I don't mean that it's your responsibility to constantly check up on them, but that whenever you do something, you have to consider "How will this effect the person I love?"

When you break up with someone, whether you want it or not, you still have that power. I think that after we break up with someone, we still have that responibility, too - for a little while. Obviously not forever, but in both our cases - a matter of days - I think the responsibility was still there. I know that I never would have done to her what she did to me; I know it would have hurt her too much, and I just wouldn't have done that. So I do think she did something wrong.</div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>That's just the way it goes. Most of my friends hate my neighbor and have called her many things I never would. We want to protect the ones we love, and are angered at those who wrong them.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Here is a portion of my above post, verbatim:

"Dave's materials don't talk obsessively about the lay like the newsgroup guys do - he's all about approaching and attracting women and keeping them interested (the sex follows naturally from that), and that meshed best with my attitude and what I want out of life. (Since I don't drink I'm not a party guy, I don't like going to bars, and pickups and one night stands don't appeal to me in the slightest.) I've put his concepts to use already..."

Note the fact that I already mentioned that, like you, I don't want random hookups either.

Note the fact that I said I put his *concepts* to use, not some canned routine or method. It's kind of hard to use nothing but lines for an entire year of seeing somebody. And the concepts he talks about are ATTRACTION, how women work, and what are the kinds of things men do and don't do in order to screw things up.

Once I finish this post I'll forward you a couple of the free newsletters of his I've been getting, hopefully that'll give you some idea.

<i>-57</i></div>

[Kupek]

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I think it has less to do with whatever theory you subscribe to, and more to do with you were an attractive guy who was confident and had interesting things to say. The fact that you were seeing someone - or that anyone else was seeing someone - is not proof that your ideas on how women are attracted to people is true.

If you really want to know how a women is attracted to someone, sit down and talk with her. Not all women are going to operate the same, which is also true for men. I find the idea that some guy thinks that he has figured out how all women work silly.

If you want to be in a relationship, forget what some random guy said, and talk to the girl you're with about each other.</div>

[Shellie]

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>What ever happened to just being yourself? Maybe Im different, but I dont fall for fake seduction crap....</div>

[Shellie]

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>It just takes time, as much as you believe you'll never get over her, you will in time and find someone else.</div>

[the Gray]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Kupek, on some level you would have to agree that as Women are still animals, instinct plays a large part of what will attract them. As well, certain things can be done to make yourself more attractive to them.

But again, on another level you generally better be interesting and have something in common with that woman or you won't be very attractive for long. And of course, there are those people that become more attractive to you in time.

Methods for meeting people, women or men, do work. In fact it's a fucking business now to 'teach' people how to do well at those assine speed dating things. Not that knowing some basics is a bad thing, especially if you are by nature a generally shy person like I am. I can fake being an extrovert pretty damn well though, which is good or I'd never meet anyone!

But again, age is going to play a large part in this too. I have a 17 yr old sister, and I see how her & her friends interact with each other quite often. Then there's my good friend Steve & his wife and friends, who are part of a much different demographic. Attraction is a world of differance between the groups. I'm caught in the middle, and I KNOW that what I find attractive is changing. Short or long term. Anyway, just some quick thoughts.</div>

[Agent 57]

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>What I've learned is not to be fake in order to be more attractive. Now that I know what personality traits and behaviors are attractive, that is what I am, so basically I am being myself. Make sense?</div>

[Shellie]

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Not really. You changed who you are so that girls will like you? Why not find a girl who likes who you really are so YOU dont have to change?</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>"I don't seriously think I've done anything wrong..." Survey says: EEENNNNTT!</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Fuck, man...it's normal. Things wind down. You're going to be doing the same shit over and over and over again. You talk about the same fucking stories 20 times over.

Things will get boring. The more people that get that through their thick fucking skull, the less people I have to fucking smack on the back of the head! There ain't such thing as "Oh, we just lost the magic". No shit, Sherlock! It happens. You have waxes and wanes in a relationship, and just because you hit the first sign of trouble doesn't mean it's time to bounce.

If we did that, we'd never last past 2-3 years in a relationship. We'd find somebody new and get addicted to that "new pussy" feeling (or in the case of women, "new man that she -thinks- is going to treat her right"). We get this warm and fuzzy feeling over something, or someone, new, but it doesn't last, and you end up kicking yourself in the ass in the end.

Hell, think about Chris Rock's two comedy specials. The first one, he's talking about how you gotta "keep it new or it's through". Now, I think he's gotten a more reasonable feel for it, talking about how boring it is: "sleep, fuck, eat, sleep, fuck, eat, sleep, fuck, eat, sleep, fuck, eat...and in between that you go 'Hey, you wanna go to the movies?'" Yet, he still talks about how a new woman's not going to help ya when you're sick, support you, be there for you, etc. (And the same applies to a new guy.) So, it's always worth it to stick with it.

I cannot say this enough: go see High Fidelity. Yes, it's a work of fiction (Kupek), but the messages are clear and ring true. Don't bother with the Comedy Central viewing; just rent it. It is the best relationship movie out there. It personifies everything John Cusack's been ranting on in every other movie of his.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>I paraphrase cuz I can't get the exact quote: "An exciting relationship is a bad one. You don't know what's going to happen next in a exciting relationship. You could wake up the next day and hear your girl say 'Hey, I got AIDS!'. Never know what's going to happen the next day."

Shit becomes exciting because of what happens in your life: you get a raise, you get a new house, you start a family, etc. It may sound boring, but it's true. Those are the moments that you really remember. If you're naturally "spontaneous, unpredictable, and exciting", so be it, but you should not try to change yourself to be that way. It shouldn't be a reason to leave somebody, certainly. I think I'm naturally goofy, and my chick likes it that way.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>The field testing of these guys are for players, not long-term relationships. I'll pass. I'd rather listen to the E-Harmony guy.</div>

[Stephen]

<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I'm curious about what this guy David has to say, but not curious enough to spend $40 for it. Got any way of looking at it for free?</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>

Now, for the part you're probably not going to want to hear, but it's the truth - domesticating yourself for this girl was probably a good portion of the reason why she fell for the other guy. Women are creatures of emotion - they thrive on it, it's what turns them on - and the great catch-22 of love is that the more dutiful, conciliatory, domesticated, and above all, predictable you are, the fewer emotions you can bring out of any one girl.

Domestication is a part of life. You buy a house together and SETTLE DOWN. This is the key part. SETTLE DOWN! If you or your SO isn't ready to settle down, it's not going to work. Generally, younger men/women aren't apt to settle down at any rate.

I mean, think of it from the girl's point of view. There's a guy she's been with for three years, a domesticated former player, willing to do anything to make her happy. Always there when she needs him, always willing to do exactly what she wants. Where's the excitement in that? Face it, man, it's boring, and even though she may have been in long-term love with you, ATTRACTION is a more powerful emotion than long-term love.

Attraction is fake. It's plastic. It's not real. It's only skin-deep. But, you're right: attraction is a more powerful emotion than long-term love...unfortunately. This is where logic and reason kicks in. This is where self-control kicks in. More on this below...

The problem you had is that once you got into your relationship, you figured the attracting part was finished with and all you needed to do was play the love card. Unfortunately, as logical as that sounds, it just doesn't work, and you got burned by it. Does it suck? Of course it does. Is it all the girl's fault? No, it's not, and the sooner you realize that, the better off you're going to be. Your anger at her will melt away over time, you'll learn from your mistakes, and using your skills, you'll be able to attract a new girl when you're ready. And this time, you'll know not to be boring and predictable, and your new girl will stay hot for you as long as you want her to.

This is the biggest paragraph I had problems with. One, yes, it's the girl's fault. She CHEATED on him! He SHOULD be angry. She's a fucking bitch for throwing away everything she had with Eric!

See, there are differences between men and women with relationships, and there are still things that make us human that are the same with both sexes. Self-control is one of them. When you make a bond between somebody, it's a promise that you keep. Being faithful in a relationship is paramount. Yes, you can have problems with a relationship, but if they are petty problems like "My man is boring" or "She don't give blowjobs like she used to", it's -NOT- a problem. Problems are things like "My man hits me when he's drunk" or "She has a bad drug habit".

Trying to change your personality to beat out attraction is doomed for failure. There's chicks I'm attracted to all the time. Am I going to cheat on my chick just because I'm attracted to them? No. Never. I could be drunk off my ass, stoned as hell, etc., and I'd never fuck another woman. (Believe me...my sister seems to bring over the hottest friends of hers...) I don't do it because my relationship isn't based around attraction.

I'm talking attraction of both flavors, personality and body. There's plenty of guys that are attractive (personality-wise) to women. Does that mean she should find "the most attractive guy out there"? No. There's no such thing. Perfection doesn't exist. The illusion is there, but it fades when you REALLY get to know the person. There is no such thing as true love. There are millions of people you could fall in love with, get married, have kids, grow old, and die with. Does that mean you should keep jumping from rock to rock until there aren't any rocks left anymore? No.

I saw two problems with your relationship. One, it sounded like it was based around attraction. Stuff like "we get blown away by this cute new transfer" or "I had another beautiful girl chasing after me" or "full-fledged puppy love". That's all fine and dandy, AS LONG AS SOMETHING ELSE IS THERE! I didn't here anything like how she had a great personality, or sense of humor, or the things you share. Being there as a boyfriend and being there as a husband are two different things. It's deeper. It's not puppy love, like you refered to it. It's knowing that no matter what, she will be there for you, even if you are maimed for life or lose your job or whatever. It's trust. It's devotion. It's domestication, the thing you so feared.

Two, she keeps telling you about this guy that she wanted MORE than you. Then she starts seeing him as a friend. Obviously, it's all downhill from there. But, it was doomed from the start. The one thing that bothered her was that you were her second choice, not first. (Paraphrasing Chris Rock again. Damn, there's a lot of good relationship advice on that comedy hour.) Ex-boyfriends are always a pain in the ass, especially the long-term ones. If she doesn't acknowledge that they broke up for a good reason, or that (in your case where she never dated him) he's not the type for her in a long-term relationship, you've got a problem.

That's not to say that #2 justifies breaking your promise and almost set up vows. Again, self-control and trust. These things are 10x more important than attraction, because the illusion of attraction is just an illusion.

P.S. One thing that helped me, and taught me basically the entire second half of this email, are the free newsletters from www.doubleyourdating.com. The practical stuff about how to talk to women and all that is probably old news to you, but the overall concepts (about attraction and the like) are something every guy should know, even the married shlubs around here.

I already don't trust it by the domain name alone. People looking for a relationship DON'T WANT to double their dating. They want to STOP dating. This sounds like some damn player's site. Bah!</div>

[Ishamael]

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Talking marriage to a chick you met in college and had been dating for under a year? My children, my children, what are you thinking?! You may hate me for saying this, but I'm happy it didn't work out. You're better off for it....</div>

[Ishamael]

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>This dude might have some decent advice, but I bet the best advice he gave was simply opening your mouth and talking. You had available chicks in ideal settings (choir club and convention). And as long as you don't look like quasimodo or she's isn't LA supermodel type, the rest is cake..</div>

[Ishamael]

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>I agree somewhat with the spirit of what I think Agent is trying to say. However in this *specific* case, I think Kupek has probably hit the nail square on the head...</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>That excludes dating. I'd admit that I was pretty fast, too. (Engaged at 10-month mark.) But, I practically moved in at the very beginning. You learn a helluva lot during that move in period. You don't have time to act nice ALL the time, like you do at a date. Your habits show, and you have to deal with mundane shit, like dishes and trash. You fight and bicker at everything.

It's a good test of your nerves and if you can take living with this person for the rest of your days. I'm not saying that moving in and marriage is nothing but fighting and loathing each other, but you basically see the true nature of yourselves, instead of the mask you put on during a date (even if you don't realize that you're betraying your real feelings).

For those reasons, I hate dating. It ends up being a plastic way of leeching money off of the guy, instead of actually showing your feelings.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>It's not at all. It's all her fault, unless Eric is not telling us something. (Reasons for looking elsewhere?) Also, Eric knows how to get started. He's been playing the game for a long time, so it's not like he needs any handy guide for picking up women. The trick is getting the right types that would actually go for the long haul. In that respect, chasing after the bombshells isn't the best idea. In general, the level of commitment (and personality/intelligence) is inversely proportional to how good her body is. Sure, you can get brains -and- beauty (a better ratio at college), but it's still rare (even in college).</div>

[Eric]

<div style='font: 11pt ; text-align: left; '>Nah, Agent's post is pretty damn real. I mean she told me how we were becoming kinda dull, didn't do much, were just kinda situated and such. I mean, I'm not a loser, but I changed into a husband instead of the playboy she fell for.</div>