Page 1 of 1

Thanks for the tax cuts, Bush.  This is REALLY stimulating jobs, let me tell ya...

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:01 am
by SineSwiper
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/28/news/ec ... n=yes">CEO pay hikes double</a>

Thanks for the tax cuts, Bush. This is REALLY stimulating jobs, let me tell ya...</div>

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:11 am
by SineSwiper
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.tows.cc/cgi-bin/rpgboard/vie ... ercentages on taxes and wealth</a>

On that note, I'm going to re-mention these numbers because I worked hard on this numbers and didn't get a response...</div>

That's just fucking ridiculous.  It's seeming more and more like corporations only really exist to benefit a handful of people and the rest of us are just picking through the scraps that have fallen off the table.

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:11 am
by ManaMan
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Is this what Republicans mean when they say that they believe businesses can regulate themselves without any government intervention?

...and another thing, I was reading an editorialo from the far right-wing "National Review Online" and the author was telling a story about how he beat some "stupid liberal college kids" in a debate about Bush's tax cuts. He said that he did this by telling them that under Bush's presidency, the total % taxes paid in this nation by the rich has actually increased. First I was thinking that Bush was slacking off! I mean, make the rich pay more taxes? It seems like he's ignoring his "base" constituency. Then I realized that this idiot was saying that out of ALL of the taxes paid by people in this country, the percentage paid by the rich has actually increased. How could this be??? I mean Bush did GIVE them a tax cut right? Therefore this right-wing pundit guy said that "the liberal kids just stood there speechless" (or something to that effect). Well, they might have been speechless because of the fact that they realized how ridiculous his argument is! The real reason that the rich are paying a higher percentage of the total national tax bill is that they are making a higher percentage of the nations total pay! (as this article pointed out) This is while the pay levels of the rest of Americans are remaining pretty much stagnant. Now the right wingers want us to feel bad for the rich for paying their fair share of the taxes when they have obscenely more than their fair share of the wealth? This is obsurd.

I wish I could find that article for you, anyway here's the link to the "NRO" website if you want a good laugh (or a scare): <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/">National Review Online</a></div>

That's just fucking ridiculous.  It's seeming more and more like corporations only really exist to benefit a handful of people and the rest of us are just picking through the scraps that have fallen off the table.

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:14 am
by ManaMan
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Is this what Republicans mean when they say that they believe businesses can regulate themselves without any government intervention?

...and another thing, I was reading an editorial from the far right-wing "National Review Online" and the author was telling a story about how he beat some "stupid liberal college kids" in a debate about Bush's tax cuts. He said that he did this by telling them that under Bush's presidency, the total % taxes paid in this nation by the rich has actually increased. First I was thinking that Bush was slacking off! I mean, make the rich pay more taxes? It seems like he's ignoring his "base" constituency. Then I realized that this idiot was saying that out of ALL of the taxes paid by people in this country, the percentage paid by the rich has actually increased. How could this be??? I mean Bush did GIVE them a tax cut right? Therefore this right-wing pundit guy said that "the liberal kids just stood there speechless" (or something to that effect) in awe of his argument or amazed at their own ignorance. Well, they might have been speechless because they realized how ridiculous his argument actually is! The real reason that the rich are paying a higher percentage of the total national tax bill (under Bush) is that they are making a higher percentage of the nations total pay (under Bush)! (as Sine's article pointed out) This is while the pay levels of the rest of Americans are remaining pretty much stagnant. Now the right wingers want us to feel bad for the rich for paying their fair share of the taxes when they have so much more than their fair share of the wealth that it is obscene? This is idiotic.

I wish I could find that article for you, anyway here's the link to the "NRO" website if you want a good laugh (or a scare): <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/">National Review Online</a></div>

Sorry, i stopped cheking that thread a while ago since it took you a while.  Anyways, i see your point (it is a nice change to see a thread that can provide good numbers and talk about them intelligently)

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:34 am
by Flip
<div style='font: 10pt Tahoma; text-align: left; '>But, the article says wealth includes assets like houses, which isnt even considered on a tax return since there is a seperate personal property tax in most states. It is hard to compare the two perecntages and come to an air tight concluion due to differences like this, but you're right that it does appear a little uneven.

I admit i was impressed when i found out that the top 50% were responsible for the 96.1% of all taxes collected so i took that stat and ran, you have shown that there is more to consider.

My question to you, though, is, do you really feel like in your everyday life that you are suppressed by the wealthy? Do they stop you from going back to school, getting additional education, and making yourself one of them? Wouldnt it feel better to earn your income rather than just having the government force everyone to be equal through wealth redistribution? Does a lazy shit deserve it compared to a guy with a PHD? I'm not sure if you are for wealth redistribution or simply for a better tax system, but i hope it is the latter.</div>

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:52 am
by Zeus
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>So, you're for a flat tax with lesser deductions?</div>

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:56 pm
by ManaMan
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I think that he's for tax reforms to ensure that wealthy Americans pay their fair share of the tax burden. From what I gathered he thinks that we should do this by taxing a person's total wealth and not just income along.</div>

PostPosted:Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:57 pm
by ManaMan
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I think that he's for tax reforms to ensure that wealthy Americans pay their fair share of the tax burden. From what I gathered he thinks that we should do this by taxing a person's total wealth and not just their income.</div>

PostPosted:Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:32 am
by SineSwiper
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Not really. I want TRUE representation of wealth to be taxed. The number of brackets we have is fine, but the brackets need to be enforced and represented correctly.</div>

PostPosted:Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:44 am
by SineSwiper
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>Especially the stocks. Really, the SEC and IRS should be working together to ensure that the taxes are correctly reported with what stocks they have.</div>

It's a nice change to find an "opponent" that listens to reason and logic, instead of trying their hardest to "win" the argument...

PostPosted:Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:26 am
by SineSwiper
<div style='font: 10pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light", "Century Gothic"; text-align: left; '>
But, the article says wealth includes assets like houses, which isnt even considered on a tax return since there is a seperate personal property tax in most states. It is hard to compare the two perecntages and come to an air tight concluion due to differences like this, but you're right that it does appear a little uneven.
Why wouldn't that be included in the figure? When you pay house taxes with your loan payment, it gets put into an escrow until tax time, where its paid off. Besides, many middle-class people have houses of their own, so why wouldn't that reflect higher in the numbers?
I admit i was impressed when i found out that the top 50% were responsible for the 96.1% of all taxes collected so i took that stat and ran, you have shown that there is more to consider.
I wasn't surprised to find that this was one of those stats that Rush Limbaugh was spouting off. I would definitely consider it a half-truth, which is par for his course. I find it even more surprising that the top 50% owns 97.8% of the nation's wealth. That kind of imbalance in the system is simply mind-blowing!
My question to you, though, is, do you really feel like in your everyday life that you are suppressed by the wealthy? Do they stop you from going back to school, getting additional education, and making yourself one of them? Wouldnt it feel better to earn your income rather than just having the government force everyone to be equal through wealth redistribution? Does a lazy shit deserve it compared to a guy with a PHD? I'm not sure if you are for wealth redistribution or simply for a better tax system, but i hope it is the latter.
In the political sense, I am a socialist. I believe in a redistribution of wealth for all people to rid the world of class discrimination, since mankind would feel less alienated with the rest of his/her people if he feels more in common with them. (In Bush's mind, the "haves and have-mores" are the only people he can even acknowledge in his scope of existance, because he's a man born into wealth and doesn't even understand how it feels to be starting out from the ground up, having to worry about paying overdue bills or living on Ramen noodles because he has a car payment to make this month.) I also feel that though some jobs require more education than others, all jobs are equally important, because the millions of workers who work on the mundane chores make life much easier for the "more important" people. Money is a unit of power that you can collect and amass more of than another, and in a democracy based on equal votes per person, this greatly shifts the balance of power to the "have-mores".

However, I feel that this is more of a belief than a system of ideas that can be carried out in this country. Nothing short of a full-scale revolution or the colonization of the moon/Mars by radical freethinkers would even hope to bring this to fruition. Therefore, I isolate my beliefs as beliefs and am willing to compromise change in small doses for our own country. Hell, maybe if enough change in our economic (im)balance comes into play, it may actually restore my faith in capitalism.

As it is, I think we definitely need to change the tax system so that the government actually has a budget in relation to its GDP and the wealth of its people. Hiding large sums of money in other countries and useless tax shelters should be cracked down on. Leave the military alone, or reduce it a bit. (Come on...we are spending $455 billion on military (<a href="http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=19 ... ce=0">2004 budget</a>), when 2nd place China is only spending $60 billion (<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... html">2003 est.</a>)?) You can put the money saved from this into education, where we badly need it.

(Somewhat unrelated, but check out this <a href="http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdp_glance.htm">graph on GDP</a>. Note when the GDP began to rise. That date look familiar?)

Above all, however, we need to make sure that the balance of our class system is established. Change the system so that the Top 50% is not responsible for 98% of our wealth. That number should be closer to 75%. There are different levels of success for people, but we should not keep it as it is, like a lottery for the lucky guy that suddenly gets out of his bracket and into the multi-millionare status overnight. Reward the people who are somewhat successful, marginally successful, partially successful, fairly successful. Don't give all of the money to only the completely successful.

Anyway, to answer your original question, yes, I feel that I'm suppressed by the wealthy. The wealthy are the ones in power who provide your goods and services, change your laws, lay you off your job, lobby for their own interests, etc. They control many aspects of our lives. Ensuring that the power of the many has equal footing to the power of the few is paramount to our democracy. We shouldn't have to rely on the "have-mores" to voice our ideas for us.</div>

PostPosted:Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:40 am
by ManaMan
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Hmm... Good luck with that one. The conservatives have been fighting tooth and nail to get rid of the capital gains tax.</div>

PostPosted:Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:58 am
by Zeus
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>You should have a lifetime exemption amount for specific shares (qualified small business corp shares) like we do up here and that's it :-)</div>

PostPosted:Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:03 am
by Zeus
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Pfft. You have all these politicians back by political parties who get their funding (legally or illegally) from the rich and you actually expect them to inact laws which dimish (as opposed to helping) their wealth? Get rid of the party system first, then that's a possibility...maybe</div>