The Shrine

BAH! I want my no text messages back

Dear God...a new message board format has lead to a new posting format! Who would have thought it possible?

Zeus you suck :)

Gee, I guess nobody grateful that I'm trying to mod the thing to work with some of the older stuff in place. First, I'll add the Posting Styles when I get that finished, and then the Topic Preview, which will have something similar to NT messages. Of course, this is all being done during my free time and most of my work time, despite the fact that I still have some scripting to do for work. Not to mention that I'm trying to learn PHP in the process...

I didn't think the change was necessary, but I'm willing to wait and see how Sine mods the board before making a final judgement. And even if the new mods suck, I think we'll live.

I just plain don't like it, no drive to post...da well.

i'm for it, but i can definitely leave and go to another board that uses PHP. i just can't do the multithreaded thing, it makes my brain feel like someone's hitting it with a cudgel.

it does seem like more people are against than for it, so it might not be a bad idea to go back while the opportunity is fresh.

Gentz wrote:Dear God...a new message board format has lead to a new posting format! Who would have thought it possible?

Haha...seriously.

To be honest, I didn't think the change was necesary either, but like Torgo, I'm willing to try this one and get adjusted. I'm starting to get used to it now and am feeling more comfortable with it. Looking back, I can even believe that perhaps the old system had gotten a bit stale. This might liven up the place.

I don't think we should expect the # of posts to be has high as before because people are still adjusting.

SineSwiper wrote:Gee, I guess nobody grateful that I'm trying to mod the thing to work with some of the older stuff in place. First, I'll add the Posting Styles when I get that finished, and then the Topic Preview, which will have something similar to NT messages. Of course, this is all being done during my free time and most of my work time, despite the fact that I still have some scripting to do for work. Not to mention that I'm trying to learn PHP in the process...

And some of us do appreciate the work you're putting into this new MB, Sine, so keep it up. I'm looking forward to some of the mods.

I didn't like the new format when I first came here, but I'm starting to appreciate it. Why? Because I've accepted that <i>this is what the shrine is now</i>, moved on, and decided that since I'm here, I might as well get accustomed to it.

Sine's commitment of time and money to this board is non-trivial. Basically, one of the things that Sine does for fun is develop message board software. In return for having a message board for us to use, we test Sine's software. There's more to it than that - I assume that Sine likes us and enjoys providing a place for all of us to talk - but that is a main (if not prime) motivator.

RPGboard wasn't in wide use. It was used in a few places, but not as widely used as phpBB is. Sine's a single developer; it's hard to compete with another open source project that has more developers and a wider user base. Put yourself in Sine's position: you want your time as an open source developer to be useful; i.e., you want your code to be used by many people. So do you continue working on your own project, or do you put your project aside and work on a larger competing project? Sine chose to work on a competing project, and that's a decision I might have made as well.

So. Sine has decided that his time is best spent on a different piece of software, and as such, our way of communicating has changed. Considering the arrangement we have going, I think that's reasonable. I don't use this reasoning to support any administrative decision Sine makes (for example, banning people at whim), but I think it applies in this case.

Sine, I've made many assumptions in this post based on your comments and previous knowledge. If I'm off base anywhere, I'm sorry, and please correct me.

Kupek wrote:Sine, I've made many assumptions in this post based on your comments and previous knowledge. If I'm off base anywhere, I'm sorry, and please correct me.

Nah, that's pretty much right on. I know I have a community to think about here, but I have a OSS community to think about as well. I'm just not motivated to work on a project that I know is buggy, outdated, and in some cases, badly-written. (I started this eight years ago, mind you.) Pretending that I support the software and pretending that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (at least what it used to imply on the site) just doesn't benefit the people downloading it.

One thing that irks me more than anything is wasted code. I've got projects at work that I really wish I could port over, but some of it is just too specific. So, I wanna put the good features from RPGBoard back into message board software.

Anyway, it's going to take a bit of time to get things going again, but this has motivated me to get back into the groove of scripting MB software again. I no longer feel like I'm trying to play a mountainous game of catch-up with my script. I've got goals with this thing, but at least I know I can reach them.

And thank you for your words of support. Again, I cannot stand some things about this format, either, especially when I first posted on one around two years ago. Trying to get me to like is another motivator to get everything coded in.

Yes, Zeus, I miss NT messages a lot, too. I don't like having to hit so many damn buttons to post a 10-word sentence. Although, I halfway understand the mentality of the phpBB developers not even agreeing to add a quick reply to the vanilla phpBB, saying "it's a forum, not chat". If they knew exactly how fast NT messages could be posted and how many were on our board, they would freak out. Obviously, I want it in some form, but I don't want to make it "special" and run into the problem of choosing between the two. I'd almost not create a real messages, and cut my conversation short just because the subject line was full. That sort of habit needs to stop. I seriously doubt I'd put in a subject-based NT message feature. But, I will put in a way to view messages within the main forum index page, up to about 200 characters per message, and if it goes beyond 200 characters, you can click on the message and read on. Unlike RPGBoard, clicking on a message doesn't interrupt the conversation as a whole, since you can continue reading the rest of the thread. The sensibilities of NT messages with actual "no text" messages, and even better than the old deal. That will be the Topic Review patch.

Just pointing out a fact: there have been FAR less new threads in the new format

I don't think is a bad thing, necessarily. If after a little while there are fewer posts then maybe we should be worried; but we don't need new threads if we're just going to keep talking about the same stuff. We've got existing threads for that!

Kupek wrote:I didn't like the new format when I first came here, but I'm starting to appreciate it. Why? Because I've accepted that <i>this is what the shrine is now</i>, moved on, and decided that since I'm here, I might as well get accustomed to it.

Sine's commitment of time and money to this board is non-trivial. Basically, one of the things that Sine does for fun is develop message board software. In return for having a message board for us to use, we test Sine's software. There's more to it than that - I assume that Sine likes us and enjoys providing a place for all of us to talk - but that is a main (if not prime) motivator.

RPGboard wasn't in wide use. It was used in a few places, but not as widely used as phpBB is. Sine's a single developer; it's hard to compete with another open source project that has more developers and a wider user base. Put yourself in Sine's position: you want your time as an open source developer to be useful; i.e., you want your code to be used by many people. So do you continue working on your own project, or do you put your project aside and work on a larger competing project? Sine chose to work on a competing project, and that's a decision I might have made as well.

So. Sine has decided that his time is best spent on a different piece of software, and as such, our way of communicating has changed. Considering the arrangement we have going, I think that's reasonable. I don't use this reasoning to support any administrative decision Sine makes (for example, banning people at whim), but I think it applies in this case.

Sine, I've made many assumptions in this post based on your comments and previous knowledge. If I'm off base anywhere, I'm sorry, and please correct me.

Hear, hear.

also, if we want to do metrics, do a check on number of words added instead of posts. the new ones are longer on average.

not that any of that means anything. meaning isn't measured in words or number of posts (though the chance of meaning might be higher with more posts).

Less than a week's worth posts is hardly a sample size worth drawing conclusions over anyway.

I've always appreciated the fact that Sine has provided us with a place to be a community. I can't imagine not having this place now, if for nothing else than just a place to chill a little bit each day.

But what the other format provided that this didn't is a way to quickly and easily scan the board. For someone like me who commutes 4+ hours a day, works 8+ hours a day, and has a wife he'd actually like to see, 10 or 15 minutes is a big thing for me to save here and there. Now, I have to scan through all of these posts I've seen at least 4 times just to get to a couple of posts that I don't really need to respond to. The other format allowed me to do that in no time, but now it takes a ton of time.

I know that this is just the beginning and that Sine's gonna change it and it'll take a while since he actually has a life. But we still need to let him know exactly why each of us dislikes it so he can make it better. So I am....repeatedly :-)

Click on the little orange page thing to the right of the subject line and you'll be taken to the newest post in the thread. I find it very easy to scan PHPBBs for new posts - easier than RPGBoard, as it brings all new threads to the top.

Zeus wrote:But what the other format provided that this didn't is a way to quickly and easily scan the board. . . Now, I have to scan through all of these posts I've seen at least 4 times just to get to a couple of posts that I don't really need to respond to. The other format allowed me to do that in no time, but now it takes a ton of time.

I think that's an issue of familiarity: you were used to the old style, and knew how to scan it quickly. That's learned, not inherent in the format.

Zeus wrote:I've always appreciated the fact that Sine has provided us with a place to be a community. I can't imagine not having this place now, if for nothing else than just a place to chill a little bit each day.

But what the other format provided that this didn't is a way to quickly and easily scan the board. For someone like me who commutes 4+ hours a day, works 8+ hours a day, and has a wife he'd actually like to see, 10 or 15 minutes is a big thing for me to save here and there. Now, I have to scan through all of these posts I've seen at least 4 times just to get to a couple of posts that I don't really need to respond to. The other format allowed me to do that in no time, but now it takes a ton of time.

I know that this is just the beginning and that Sine's gonna change it and it'll take a while since he actually has a life. But we still need to let him know exactly why each of us dislikes it so he can make it better. So I am....repeatedly :-)

I am actually finding it easier to scan for new posts in this format. Seriously. The updated threads float, the icon changes to indicate new posts in a forum, then new posts within a thread. Then you can click the little icon to be taken directly to the newest post(s). It gets real easy when you get used to it.

You know what's even easier than this format? Single thread boards! Just find out where you left off and scroll down from there! No hassle! Easy as pie!

Except the ones with the woven crust on top. Those are hard.

Use the "View all new messages" option from the main page. Seriously.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:Click on the little orange page thing to the right of the subject line and you'll be taken to the newest post in the thread. I find it very easy to scan PHPBBs for new posts - easier than RPGBoard, as it brings all new threads to the top.

Yeah, I want to put that link on most of the pages, not just the first index page. I don't know why that isn't standard, but then again, I don't know why a lot of things aren't standard.

I'm mainly just upset with the fact that posters who like to post REAL messages, the long kind got moved down so many ranks. Don isn't even near the top of the charts anymore, and I'm down from first place to sixth place =)

The rankings are gay anyway.

"I think that's an issue of familiarity: you were used to the old style, and knew how to scan it quickly. That's learned, not inherent in the format."

No it's inherent in the format, particularly when we're talking about NT messages, which a lot of us regulars used almost exclusively. It's 10 times easier to sift through the old way than through this way. So, my time committment to come here is automatically increased.

That's before we even start talking about how this new format forces on-topic threads. Multi-topic threads (ie. actually allowing conversations to blossom into multiple topics, the way conversations are naturally meant to develop) is the main thing I miss about the old format. The new format will essentially eliminate that.

Zeus wrote:Multi-topic threads (ie. actually allowing conversations to blossom into multiple topics, the way conversations are naturally meant to develop) is the main thing I miss about the old format. The new format will essentially eliminate that.

Good point, the structure does force linearity.

Zeus wrote:Multi-topic threads (ie. actually allowing conversations to blossom into multiple topics, the way conversations are naturally meant to develop) is the main thing I miss about the old format. The new format will essentially eliminate that.

Yeah, but when conversations do start to go off into new-topic land, we can either just start a new thread, or a mod can split the conversation. Not that big a deal.

I have always found the multi-topic threads difficult to follow, however, so I'm not unhappy that they're gone :).

But some of us have an IQ higher than mayonaisse (although barely, in my case), so I have no issues following it. The tree set-up of the old forum was perfect for it

Actually, I did have issues following it when it got large. When you have a thread that has some big blank space between the two direct replies and it spanned a full page, it was hard to figure out that the message all the way at the bottom was a direct reply to the message all the way at the top.

zeus wrote:No it's inherent in the format, particularly when we're talking about NT messages, which a lot of us regulars used almost exclusively. It's 10 times easier to sift through the old way than through this way. So, my time committment to come here is automatically increased.

Your problem is just that you were used to the old format and now things are different. For all your complaining, that's all the situation boils down to - you haven't had time to get used to a new setup. In a few months you won't even remember what it was like posting on the old RPGBoard.

zeus wrote:That's before we even start talking about how this new format forces on-topic threads. Multi-topic threads (ie. actually allowing conversations to blossom into multiple topics, the way conversations are naturally meant to develop) is the main thing I miss about the old format. The new format will essentially eliminate that.

You've obviously never posted at a PHP board. That's just not true at all. The only difference is that, in this format, the main topic of the thread tends to evolve as the conversation develops whereas, in old RPGB, different topics tend to be more compartmentalized within the thread. And say what you want about this difference, but if anything the former is a lot more "natural" than the latter when it comes to the way conversations develop. When you're talking to someone IRL you don't have the luxury of replying directly to something they said an hour ago, you respond to what they're presently saying.

I vehemently disagree, but whatever, all I can do now is just become a fringe player on the board, like Eric

Oh boo hoo.

You're weird Tort, I remember you complaining about Sine taking out the Frames option, but when he totally changes the entitre board you're fine with it!

Given that for quite a while now I've viewed PhPBB as a superior board script, yes, I'm quite happy with this change.

I'm sorry you guys won't put in the effort to adapt, but it's not really my concern.

Zeus wrote:I vehemently disagree, but whatever, all I can do now is just become a fringe player on the board, like Eric

It hasn't even been a week.

Tort, you threatened to quit when Sine took out the worthless Frames options. But I don't really feel like I am posting at the Shrine anymore. It feels like the time when we moved to that semi-active board run by G-man a few years ago. All I hope for is that the community stays alive.

The Seeker wrote:Tort, you threatened to quit when Sine took out the worthless Frames options. But I don't really feel like I am posting at the Shrine anymore. It feels like the time when we moved to that semi-active board run by G-man a few years ago. All I hope for is that the community stays alive.

And now you're threating to quit when I change to a board format that nearly the entire planet uses?

The entire planet watches fucking soccer, but that doesn't make it the best sport........

You bunch of fucking chicken littles! This place has always been about the community, not the format. If you're willing to give up on everybody here because of a change of format, then fuck you! Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out!

FWIW, I'm starting to prefer this format over the old one. I like how it's cleaner and has more structure to it. Of course, I've been at the Gaming-Age forums for years now, so I'm a bit more than used to this setup. That said, I'm plenty willing to give this a chance and see what Sine can whip up for us.

While I'm honored to be held up as an example of melodramatic martyrdom, I should note that my request was a bit more simplistic than "change the board script back entirely" or "write a hybrid interface to allow both board formats to be used".

So, carry on.

And now you're threating to quit when I change to a board format that nearly the entire planet uses?[/quote]

I don't know how you read that I was threatening to quit from what I wrote. All I'm doing is telling the truth, I don't like this board format. I'm not a stranger to it either, other game forums use it, Utopia (out of game) forums use it as well, it doesn't change the fact that I still like the true Shrine format a lot better than this one.

And Tort, don't fool yourself, you're being held as an example of a hypocrite.


Look at the activity levels though, they're about 1/3rd as much as they were before the conversion.

The Seeker wrote: And Tort, don't fool yourself, you're being held as an example of a hypocrite.

Works for me!

we could always vote, if we want to make this a true populist democracy...

To follow my earlier wiseass remark (which I stand by), the only reason I can see the term "hypocrite" being used is as a possible means of discrediting my opinion, or such.

1) Board changed slightly long ago. No frames. Not particularly caring about the Shrine at that point in time, I simply said I wouldn't be posting if the frames menu wasn't restored. Shit hit the fan, largely without my further contributions, it was added.

For the record, that was me expressing displeasure with a change, most of the rest of you saying "but I like it how it is, suck it up", fin.

2) Board changes now. Format change. Several of you say you won't be posting if the new format stays. Shit hit the fan, largely without further contributions from several of you.

This would be some of you expressing displeasure with a change, most of the rest of us saying "but we like how it is, suck it up".

As to the charge of being a hypocrite because I like this change and will defend it whereas I didn't like the other one, well, that doesn't hold water, because otherwise several of you are just as hypocritical (in reverse!).

As Andrew said, if it's the script that's a bigger deal to you than the people here, well, see ya.

You can continue insulting me if you want, though, it gives it that old-school Shrine feel. Perhaps that would help you get over your reticence to post.

The script isn't bigger than the community, it simply makes being a part of the community require much more effort, especially for certain levels of conversation. Before, I could follow the conversation from the subject lines all on one page and determine if I wanted to see the rest of the message (often not, if I didn't care about that line of conversation). Now, I have to hit the link to the last message, scroll all the way back to my last message, then try and follow the conversation through, all the while sifting through each and every message (even at a high resolution, I still can only fit one and a half messages on average on the screen at once). The quotes help with keeping up with the multiple topics, but it's not nearly as effective as the other format.

At the end of the day, what this means to me is that the new format requires a substantial amount extra effort as compared to the old one. As I have mentioned in the past, I don't have a lot of free time and often come here for 5-10 minutes at a time as a little break. Now, that's turned into the time for one forum versus the entire site. Thus, I will only be able to post about 1/5th as much as before, becoming more of a fringe player than I used to be. It might go up in the weekend, if I have extra time, but during the week, it'll be MUCH less.

That's what this new format means to me, but I'm different. I only have a finite amount of free time, unlike a lot here. But that's me...

just out of curiosity, when did the frames menu disappear and when did it get put back?

In the past? When Sine did a conversion to a newer format, he decided that the frames option wasn't necessary. But some of us loved it and bitched, so he put it back up after a couple of months. i think it was what, 2 years ago?

gotcha, thanks zeus

Mental wrote:we could always vote, if we want to make this a true populist democracy...

Um, hello? All the crap I said about Sine deciding where his time as an open source developer is best spent?

We don't pay for this board. We don't do any work for it. (Some of us are admins, but that's hardly enough time and effort to make a difference in my argument.) What some of you are saying is that despite the fact that you contribute nothing to the upkeep of this board, the posting style is more important than the manner in which Sine decides to expend his efforts as a devloper.

I think my various disagreement with Sine over the years are enough to show that I don't think he's right all the time, nor do I think he should make long term changes to the board on just a whim. But this isn't a whim. He has a damned good reason for this change. Accept it and move on.

hey, kupek, you do know i'm for the new board setup, right?

as far as contributing nothing to the upkeep is concerned, agreed! i haven't contributed anything in a long while. but i still have some feelings about the board in sort of a paternal way i guess (since i did start it out way way way back when) and i do think that the health of a community is dependent on at least taking into account the views of its members - ALL of them. it is Sine's board, but i think he might find it a more vibrant community were we to take into account the views of all of its members. as much as i hate democracy at times, it can be a pretty damn good system of decision when it comes to a group of people who want to do something together, be it living in a country or posting at a message board. that's all i'm saying.