The Other Worlds Shrine

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  • Iraqi citizens celebrating in the street and pulling down statues of Saddam. Nah, they don't like us being in there at all.

  • Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #7458  by Tortolia
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:45 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Iraqi citizens celebrating in the street and pulling down statues of Saddam. Nah, they don't like us being in there at all.</div>

 #7459  by Tessian
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:59 pm
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>lol, I wanted to say something about this too but feared too many would accuse me of being premature :P They were all fighting each other to dance ontop of his freakin head (then they dragged it around town)</div>

 #7461  by the Gray
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:02 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Let's see if they're still cheering being occupied by US troops in 2-4 weeks. They may be happy Hussein is finished, but they sure as hell don't like foreigners on their land.</div>

 #7462  by Kupek
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:24 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/09/opini ... IE.html</a>

A cogent caution from someone who supported the war:</div>

 #7464  by G-man Joe
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:28 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V please.</div>

 #7466  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:39 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Fuck NYT.</div>
 #7468  by Kupek
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:44 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Hold Your Applause
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

MM QASR, Iraq — It's hard to smile when there's no water. It's hard to applaud when you're frightened. It's hard to say, "Thank you for liberating me," when liberation has meant that looters have ransacked everything from the grain silos to the local school, where they even took away the blackboard.

That was what I found when spending the day in Umm Qasr and its hospital, in southern Iraq. Umm Qasr was the first town liberated by coalition forces. But 20 days into the war, it is without running water, security or adequate food supplies. I went in with a Kuwaiti relief team, who, taking pity on the Iraqis, tossed out extra food from a bus window as we left. The Umm Qasr townsfolk scrambled after that food like pigeons jostling for bread crumbs in a park.

This was a scene of humiliation, not liberation. We must do better.

I am sure we will, as more relief crews arrive. But this scene explained to me why, even here in the anti-Saddam Shia heartland of southern Iraq, no one is giving U.S. troops a standing ovation. Applause? When I asked Lt. Col. Richard Murphy, part of the U.S. relief operation, how Iraqis were greeting his men, he answered bluntly and honestly: "I have not detected any overt hostility."

Overt hostility? We've gone from expecting applause to being relieved that there is no overt hostility. And we've been here only 20 days. As I said, I'm certain things will improve with time. But for now, America has broken the old order — Saddam's regime — but it has yet to put in place a new order, and the vacuum is being filled in way too many places by looters, thugs, chaos, thirst, hunger and insecurity. A particular problem here in the south is the fact that British troops have still not totally secured Basra, the regional center. Without free access to Basra, the whole southern economy is stalled.

It would be idiotic to even ask Iraqis here how they felt about politics. They are in a pre-political, primordial state of nature. For the moment, Saddam has been replaced by Hobbes, not Bush. When I asked Dr. Safaa Khalaf at Umm Qasr Hospital why the reception for U.S. forces had been so muted, he answered: "Many people here have sons who were soldiers. They were forced to join the army. Many people lost their sons. They are angry from the war. Since the war, no water, no food, no electricity. . . . We have not had water for washing or drinking for five days. . . . There is no law, no policeman to arrest people. I don't see yet the American reign of running the country."

The scene at Umm Qasr Hospital is tragic. A woman who delivered a baby an hour earlier is limping home, and her mother has the baby tucked under her black robe. An old orange Dodge speeds up and a malnourished teenage boy moans on the back seat. A little kid is playing with an X-ray film of someone's limb. In the hospital lab, the sink is piled with bloody test tubes, waiting to be washed when the water comes back on.

What is striking, though, is that after people get through complaining to you about their situation, they each seem to have a story about a family member or cousin who was arbitrarily jailed or killed by Saddam's thugs. They are truly glad to be rid of him. America did good in doing that, so now we must build a peace we can be equally proud of.

But this is such a broken land. Its spirit was broken by Saddam long before we arrived, and now, because of this war, its major cities and iron-fisted order are being broken as well. Killing Saddam alone will not bring America the thank-yous it expects because Iraqis are not yet feeling free. Only replacing Saddam's order with a better order will do that. "There is no freedom because there is no security," said Dr. Mohammed al-Mansuri, the hospital's director.

We are so caught up with our own story of "America's liberation of Iraq," and the Arab TV networks are so caught up with their own story of "America's occupation of Iraq," that everyone seems to have lost sight of the real lives of Iraqis.

"We are lost," said Zakiya Jassim, a hospital maintenance worker. "The situation is getting worse. I don't care about Saddam. He is far away. I want my country to be normal."

America broke Iraq; now America owns Iraq, and it owns the primary responsibility for normalizing it. If the water doesn't flow, if the food doesn't arrive, if the rains don't come and if the sun doesn't shine, it's now America's fault. We'd better get used to it, we'd better make things right, we'd better do it soon, and we'd better get all the help we can get.</div>

 #7469  by Kupek
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:45 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Yeah, fuck the New York Times. It's not like they let me read their newspaper for free or anything.</div>

 #7472  by G-man Joe
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:52 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Yikes! Hopefully, this will be as smooth a transition like Japan and Germany.</div>

 #7474  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:57 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>A nice collection showing where the propaganda is coming from.</div>
 #7475  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:15 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... >Different headlines about the Saddam statue...</a>

Abu Dhabi TV - Negative of the USA empire
Al Jazeera (Qatar) - Same
Al Arabiya TV (UAE) - Neutral
Kuwaiti TV - Anti-Saddam (duh...they invade Kuwait)
Al Alam TV (Iran) - Anti-Saddam (duh...Iran-Iraq War)
Pro-Hezbollah Al-Manar TV - Neutral</div>

 #7476  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:17 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Sorry, but when there are other sources of news just as reliable (or even more so) that don't force me to register an account, then fuck them.</div>

 #7477  by the Gray
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:21 pm
<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>That's one of the most realistic, reasonable things I've read in 2 days.</div>

 #7480  by Tessian
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:03 pm
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>yes, stories like these are slowly eeking into the mainstream. It's sad and horrible but as the reporter said-- in time it'll be better. Hopefully soon</div>

 #7482  by Tessian
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:06 pm
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>no, don't fuck NYTimes, fuck you and your horrible laziness. I spend 20 seconds registering half a year ago and the cookie is still on my computer and doesn't inconvenience me a bit</div>

 #7484  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:17 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>My cookie never seems to stay on there. I gave up after the third time, because it's annoying. If they are going to give me something that annoying before I read some stupid article, I'd just as soon not read their newspaper or go to their stupid web site.</div>

 #7485  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:19 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... .html">The Age</a>

Same article, different source.</div>

 #7486  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:24 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/09/opini ... =GOOGLE</a>

Same article without the registration.</div>

 #7487  by ManaMan
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:00 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>They're cheering the fall of Saddam, not our arrival... hopefully their joy will last long enough for us to straigten things out.</div>

 #7488  by ManaMan
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:02 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>They're cheering the fall of Saddam, not our arrival... hopefully their joy will last long enough for us to straighten things out.</div>

 #7489  by Tortolia
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:20 pm
<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>And there would be no point A without point B...</div>

 #7490  by Tessian
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:31 pm
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>because-- back to my point, your horrible laziness. As a PSU student I get NYTimes for free and it's great</div>

 #7493  by ManaMan
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 7:09 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Hopefully they will see that</div>

 #7502  by Gentz
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:59 pm
<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Do you point SEE, Manaman? Ahh hahahahaha!...Alright I'm done.</div>

 #7503  by Kupek
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:02 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>The New York Times is one of the most well regarded U.S. newspapers. This does not mean they are a good newspaper. However, it does mean that many people read it and take it seriously. Hence, I want to know what they say.</div>

 #7506  by ManaMan
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:43 pm
<div style='font: 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I smell ham....</div>

 #7509  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:48 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Many people watch Fox News and take it seriously, but that doesn't mean I'm going to watch it myself.</div>

 #7510  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:49 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Ummm...I thought everybody got NYT for "free".</div>

 #7511  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:49 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Such a serious article and "Yikes" is your response?</div>

 #7515  by Tessian
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:58 pm
<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>I'm talking about the actual newspaper. Part of PSU's readership program; we get Collegian (campus paper), NYTimes, Central Bucks paper and another one for free as students</div>

 #7516  by G-man Joe
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:04 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>Yikes!</div>

 #7518  by Kupek
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:08 pm
<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I actually think that watching Fox News to see know what it is they say is a good idea. However, I can not stomach it. For my own sanity, I do not do that.</div>

 #7520  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:35 pm
<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Frankly, I can watch Fox News for the hot blondes, but I can't listen to it. It's like Baywatch.</div>