The Shrine

I'll make it short. (nevermind, I finished writing this message and saw this statement as a lie, but will leave it in for entertainment value)

My best friend went out with a girl for around two years. Their relationship ended around 3 weeks ago. The girl was basically in love with this guy and thought he was the one she was going to marry.

A little before their relationship began I became friends with this girl. Friendship continued through the relationship she had with my friend. I was basically the go-to guy for problems for the girl, especially since my friend moved away almost a year ago, so half of their relationship has been a long distance one. (Ive been referred to by her as the surrogate boyfriend on more than one occassion). And after their break up, while she's been in town, I've been the shoulder to cry on.

I know what you're thinking, and you're right. Big fucking surprise, Im nuts about this girl. I get along with her better then I've ever been able to with a woman. I pretty much respect everything about her (which is a rarety for me, Im very picky about people), and we can pretty much talk about anything.

Does she feel the same way about me? Well besides very subtle comments (IE surrogate boyfriend), Im clueless. If she does, then she's obviously gunna wait until I say something. What Im basically afraid of is if I say anything, she'll be super pissed and I'll lose her as a friend on top of it. I know, not cliche at all is it?

I've never been in a position like this. She's a friend's EX, she's a good friend of mine, wrap it all up and it makes for some potentially explosive situations.

Now, we just went out this weekend, a few guy friends of mine and this girl. She made a comment how we're all off limits since she dated our other friend. In the back of my mind, Im like fuckin greeeat. Then reality struck me, and people are generally full of shit, and I shouldn't take that too seriously.

Ok, so when you think this couldn't get any more lame, there's more...

Last summer, my friend cheated on this girl and I found out. I never said anything while they were going out. I'm not willing to break up a relationship for any friend, especially when both of them are my friends. I figured it's their shit to work out. This past weekend when we went to the bar, I was more drunk than Ive been in a very long time, and yup, you guessed it, I let this little secret slip to the girl.

My best friend found out I told her. Bad shit going on there, but not really the focus of this rant. The girl says she's glad she knows, and she's not pissed at me for telling her or for keeping it a secret so long. She's glad she knows now (or so she says), because she was actually thinking that the possibility existed that sometime in the distant future they might get back together. For the next 3 days until she left we talked a lot, she cried a lot.

OK! This is the situation so far. They broke up, I had nothing to do with it, Im nuts about said girl.

Now, one thing I'm very certain about is that she doesn't need any more fucked up shit going on in her life at this very moment. Besides her recent break up, she's having career issues. I've waited this long to say anything, what's more time.

Time to take the Poll.

Do I say anything to her, take probably one of the bigest social chances I've ever had to take, and just let the chips fall where they may?

Or, do I get my head out of my ass, stop being so fucking selfish and realize that by doing this I might just fuck up all the people's lives that are involved in this mess? (well, maybe not something that dramatic)

Well, there, I got that off my chest. Of course I've talked to other friends about this, but I want some objective opinions, however brutally honest.

If you haven't guessed, yea, I don't have an exceeding amount of confidence when it comes to this sort of stuff. Relationships Im in dont really work out, not necessarily because Im bad at them, but because I havent really found anyone Ive been willing to put the effort in with.

Ok, Ill shut up!

If I were you I would give it a little time, and see how things go. At least give it a few more weeks. If you mention something too fast then you are gonna come across as an ass, and you defidently dont want that. If they have been together that long you need to give some time before saying anything.

Sure I'll keep it short.

I'm dating my best friend's ex at the moment.

It didn't start until....9-10 months after they broke up(very important here), feelings had always been there(Me and girl), AND I asked him about 1,000,000 times beforehand if he was ok with it, and that it wouldn't ruin our relationship(got the roger, wilco, and ok).

Smooth sailing so far, happiness all around all parties involved, him, her, me, and all our friends.

If you want to hear a funny story of how they broke up ask me sometimes, I still make fun at him about it. Heh. In fact it was so downright....WOW, he's happy to see her with me, and happy to see my happy.

Oracle, I would continue being a friend for the time being, but not reject the possibility of her wanting to become your g/f. IOW, give her some time to sort things out and if she wants to pursue it, go for it. If you think it's enough time and she hasn't gone further, then go further yourself. The biggest mistake with boy/girl friends (who aren't a couple) is the whole "Oh, I'm going to completely ruin our relationship" bullshit. If it doesn't work out, break it off and it's all good. If you've been together for so long, that sort of thing isn't going to kill the friendship.

The "best friend" cheated on her and didn't tell her, so you don't need his permission. Furthermore, he told you basically so that he could have you keep it a secret and you'd have to bear with it as you talked with her all the time, or so that you could essentially break up the relationship for him, since he's too chickenshit to do it himself.

Oracle wrote:Do I say anything to her, take probably one of the bigest social chances I've ever had to take, and just let the chips fall where they may?

Good things don't come without risk.

Say something now. There is no "right time." It's just when you get the courage. Yes, there is the possibility that you'll screw up the friendship you have with this girl, but you're not really "friends" anyway, are you? Yeah, there's some potential akwardness because of how you know this girl - well guess what, there's <i>always</i> going to be some potential akwardness because you always have to go from a point of knowing something and not dating them to dating them.

And I agree with Sine on the "I'm going to mess up the other person" line. It's melodramatic bullshit we tell ourselves because everyone loves to be the martyr.

You have a chance to be happy. Take it. Will it work out? Honestly, probably not. But that's okay. Because then you'll have learned more, and the next time around, you'll probably do better.

Kupek wrote:Good things don't come without risk.

Very true but...

Kupek wrote:Say something now. There is no "right time." It's just when you get the courage.

I disagree here. In most cases there will not be a "right time", but this is one of the exceptions. She was with the guy for 2 years and apparently deeply in love. They've only been broken up for 3 weeks. I'd give her a little more time (a little, like a week or two more, not a month or two).

Now, if you think she's over him as much as she is going to be for a while, Oracle, then I'd agree with Kupek and say now. But that's something you have to gauge. At the very least, you have to say something pretty soon.

Lox wrote:I disagree here. In most cases there will not be a "right time", but this is one of the exceptions. She was with the guy for 2 years and apparently deeply in love. They've only been broken up for 3 weeks. I'd give her a little more time (a little, like a week or two more, not a month or two).

He doesn't have to give her an ultimatum, nor would I expect her to act on it immediately, but I think it's best to let her in on this now. It's obviously affecting him, and probably affecting their relationship. I don't think you can honestly help someone through a breakup while you're secretly in love with them.

This is one of those situations that I find very hard to gauge unless I personally know the people.

I would think that the chances of everything working out right now, that is she starts dating you and you remain friends with her Ex, to be about 0.0001%

While you do have to talk to her about your feelings soon, I'd follow Lox's advice and wait another week or two. Not that it's really going to make a difference in her decision. But if she's still dealing with the breakup, and having career problems, I wouldn't add to her stress level.



As an aside, how messed up are most of us here? Are Sine, Zeus, Flip and Lox the only stable guys among us?
Or is it just the season. I'm going with the Seasonal change because I don't want to believe that those guys are saner than I.

Are Sine, Zeus, Flip and Lox the only stable guys among us?

These guys are our metric for <i>stability</i>?!! :P

Andrew Killer Bee: These guys are our metric for stability?!!

Yeah, and you wonder why I choose to delude myself into believing it's just a change in the weather instead.

You want brutally honest? I can do brutally honest.

From the description of your relationship with this girl that you've given in your post, you are not her friend - you are her <i>girlfriend</i>. You listened to her problems with her relationship, you gave her a shoulder to cry on...you were the emotional safety net for her to fall back on whenever she needed you.

So here's the problem with that little arrangement - the chances that she looks at you in "that way" are slim to none. She feels the same level of sexual interest towards you as she does towards a teddy bear, or her mom. So if you go up to her and say "I'm crazy about you" now, two weeks from now, or two months from now, her reaction is going to be exactly the same - "Gee, Oracle, that's sweet, but in my eyes you don't have a penis." (Okay, so she's not going to <i>say</i> it that way, but you get my drift.)

Oracle, my friend, what you have here is a textbook case of wuss-related "one-itis" - you got nuts about this one unattainable (since she got into her relationship shortly after you became friends with her) girl, and since you didn't have any physical inroads to a relationship with her, you completely supplicated to her every emotional need instead, thinking "yeah, this'll work - one day, when she's single again, she'll remember what a good friend I've been, and then we can go out."

Guess what, it doesn't work! And the worst part is, is that this sort of behavior is actually pretty manipulative and underhanded - unless, of course, you can <i>honestly</i> say that you would have given this girl the exact same amount of emotional support, helping her deal with all of her shit when you could have been doing other (more fun) things, if you <i>hadn't</i> been crazy about her. Women don't react too well to guys telling them that they did stuff for them just so that they could get in their pants someday.

<hr>
"So, 57," you ask, "what, in your infinite wisdom, should I do?"

Well, in the seduction/dating help community, the first answer to this question is usually the acronym GFTOW, but in cases like this I would recommend the F be changed to a D, and you should Go Date Ten Other Women. You would not believe the power of jealousy in women, and probably the only way this girl is ever going to see you as a sexual possibility is if she sees you as other women's sexual possibilities.

Also, you totally need to change your attitude with this girl. Stop being her teddy bear/handkerchief. Playfully bust her balls, joke around with her, and tell her YOU can't date *her* because of reason XYZ (she dated your friend, you're too sexy for her, she wears goofy shoes, whatever).

This strategy has several benefits to it:

1) You'll stop being her girlfriend.
2) You'll be acting in an attractive manner towards her.
3) You don't have to worry about doing something that could mess up your life/her life/your friend's life.

And most importantly, 4) You'll be giving yourself a chance with the <i>millions and millions</i> of other women out there!

Put your focus on yourself. Make yourself a better person, make yourself happy, and maybe one day this girl will come up to you and kiss you out of nowhere.

Unfortunately, you may already have a girlfriend at the time.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:

Are Sine, Zeus, Flip and Lox the only stable guys among us?

These guys are our metric for <i>stability</i>?!!

Haha...I feel so honored to be a measure of stability.

I'm sure most of you remember me and my girl problems in years past. I've had my fair share of issues, but I just found the right girl for me and I'm going with it. heh

Oracle wrote:

Do I say anything to her, take probably one of the bigest social chances I've ever had to take, and just let the chips fall where they may?

My theory has always been, friends don't let friends date other friend's ex's. My little brother's best friend is currently dating my little brother's first girlfriend and there is definitely a rift where there wasn't before. In my own opinion though, if there is any hinting at that she may be interested in you, well I guess you've got to go for it and let the chips fall where they may. The only thing that I see standing in your way of dating her though is your NICE GUY factor. If she's cried around you or on the phone with you about past relationships, you have a very very good chance of remaining the good friend and that's all you will become.

Or, do I get my head out of my ass, stop being so fucking selfish and realize that by doing this I might just fuck up all the people's lives that are involved in this mess? (well, maybe not something that dramatic)

Who is being selfish? Obviously your friend was first when he took her love for granted and fucked the other chick. I doubt you'll fuck up everyone else's lives, if anything it could make your circle of friends slightly smaller, but tighter.

Well, there, I got that off my chest. Of course I've talked to other friends about this, but I want some objective opinions, however brutally honest.

If you haven't guessed, yea, I don't have an exceeding amount of confidence when it comes to this sort of stuff. Relationships Im in dont really work out, not necessarily because Im bad at them, but because I havent really found anyone Ive been willing to put the effort in with.

Everyone runs into this issue. But I think you are thinking too far ahead. You need to get your foot in the door before you decide to buy the damn house. And that's where dating comes in. It's ok to be foolish and yourself while you're dating her (if it comes to that) because who cares really? Both of you are scared and trying to figure one another out. If you both end up having a wonderful set of evenings or evening together then that's that, but pursue it no further if she doesn't return calls in a timely manner.

Ok, Ill shut up!

Yeah, steal my thunder...you bitch!

Lot of good stuff here, and most of it is stuff that I've thought about or said to myself at one point or another.

Gives me some things to think about, appreciate the input.

Heh, i admit i didnt really date all that much. I had some fun freshman year of college as a single, but that scene got old fast and i'm more of a relationship guy who happened to find a relationship girl.

That being said, i dont believe in the there is one person for everyone theory. Me and my wife work great together, but i think we both probably could have worked great with other people, too. Am i willing to give up what i got to go find that? Hell no. She is wonderful and we are in love, that is hard to beat.

I do, occassionally get a wicked thoughy, though. Freshman year i met a real cute, stable, and down to earth girl who i was kinda seeing for a couple months (i was still in freshman college mode and pledging a fraternity and enjoying the life); she finally broke it off with me and told me i needed to grow up, quit the fraternity, stop smoking, and come back to reality. I told her to go to hell. What happend a few years later? I became inactive in the fraternity, i studied harder to get a good internship at an accounting firm, i quit smoking, andi began planning myself a solid future. She saw right through me and i was too stupid to see it for myself. I wonder what she is doing now, she could have been close to being the one now that i look back.

SineSwiper wrote:

Eric wrote:If you want to hear a funny story of how they broke up ask me sometimes, I still make fun at him about it.

That a request? @_@

Eric wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:

Eric wrote:If you want to hear a funny story of how they broke up ask me sometimes, I still make fun at him about it.

That a request? @_@

looks like.