The Other Worlds Shrine

Your place for discussion about RPGs, gaming, music, movies, anime, computers, sports, and any other stuff we care to talk about... 

  • possibly my last "wtf?" wikipedia-quoting post - re: Dubya

  • Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #85585  by Nev
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:00 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_w_bush

I was reading up on his personal history. Yale, National Guard, MBA, failed oil company venture, part-ownership of the Texas Rangers...then, governor of Texas.

What?

I mean, my particular sense of conventional wisdom would have indicated that one has to have political experience or a solidly proven track record of some kind of business successes to get elected to major office.

My grandfather was FDIC chairman from the early to late eighties. To get appointed, though, he'd proven that he had the acumen to build up his father's accounting firm into a nationwide business (Seidman & Seidman accounting, now merged with BDO to form BDO Seidman - I believe they're one of the larger accounting firms on the East Coast, though I haven't really been much interested in it so far in my life).

 #85587  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:15 am
Welcome to the United States of America, Mental. God, I fucking hate democracies, but it's the best system we have right now.
 #85589  by Zeus
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:47 am
Mental wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_w_bush

I was reading up on his personal history. Yale, National Guard, MBA, failed oil company venture, part-ownership of the Texas Rangers...then, governor of Texas.

What?

I mean, my particular sense of conventional wisdom would have indicated that one has to have political experience or a solidly proven track record of some kind of business successes to get elected to major office.

My grandfather was FDIC chairman from the early to late eighties. To get appointed, though, he'd proven that he had the acumen to build up his father's accounting firm into a nationwide business (Seidman & Seidman accounting, now merged with BDO to form BDO Seidman - I believe they're one of the larger accounting firms on the East Coast, though I haven't really been much interested in it so far in my life).
I work with BDO up here :-)

Major money + part of the Masons group = political office/major business position. It's that simple

 #85590  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:53 am
Freemasons?

 #85592  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:41 am
I don't think there are any true democracies in the world. The government that is "elected" should not be telling the people what they should think, they should be representing the people. Either way, I dislike democracy as well.

An ideal system would be a benevolent dictatorship where the leadership would be chosen by those who are most intelligent and knowledgeable, and also by those who have demonstrated not to have alternative goals other that would benefit them personally.

The reason why I don't like democracy is because all politicians are full of shit. Most votes cast in history are thrown into a pile of bullshit. The majority of the public who does vote has no fucking clue what's going on. Why are these people chosing the government? Again, why are all the people eligible happen to be people who backstabbed and bullshitted their way to the positions they have? It's because those who get voted in are essentially demagogs. Bush and Kerry were both demagogs, does anyone actually believe that those two give a shit about anything they argued about?

To say democracy is bullshit would be a correct statement. I believe a system that I suggested above would yield the best government for the people.

EDIT: fixed my absolutely atrocious grammar at the end of that rant =P
Last edited by Julius Seeker on Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #85593  by SineSwiper
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:56 am
Of course, but a benevolent dictatorship is oh-so easy to usurp. In a democracy, it's slow to see action and everything is about compromising, but it's also easy to re-elect somebody else in X years. A dictatorship is quick to action and without compromises, but it takes a sizable army to remove the person in power.

So, what are ya gunna do? It's a lose-lose situation.

 #85595  by Nev
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:36 am
The Seeker wrote:An ideal system would be a benevolent dictatorship where the leadership would be chosen by those who are most intelligent and knowledgeable, and also by those who have demonstrated not to have alternative goals other that would benefit them personally.
A poli sci term for what you're talking about (other than the fact that it's a dictatorship) is "meritocracy"...

The problem then becomes, who decides who's most intelligent and knowledgeable? Those are very subjective terms.

You should really read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court and tell me what you think. The character of the Yankee espouses some of the same views as you're talking about right now, at least as far as the "benevolent dictatorship" idea goes.

 #85596  by Nev
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:40 am
SineSwiper wrote:Of course, but a benevolent dictatorship is oh-so easy to usurp. In a democracy, it's slow to see action and everything is about compromising, but it's also easy to re-elect somebody else in X years. A dictatorship is quick to action and without compromises, but it takes a sizable army to remove the person in power.

So, what are ya gunna do? It's a lose-lose situation.
"The major problem-one of the major problems, for there are several-one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them... To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."

--Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Zeus wrote:I work with BDO up here :-)

Major money + part of the Masons group = political office/major business position. It's that simple
(Andrew thinks, for not the first time, about finding a Masonic lodge and seeing what it's all about. He's heard the Shriners throw great parties...)

On a different note, how do you like BDO?

 #85597  by Nev
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:50 am
I'd be interested to hear from Flip on this subject too, since with G-man gone he's the only one here who I know to be Republican.

 #85598  by Lox
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:29 pm
Mental wrote:I'd be interested to hear from Flip on this subject too, since with G-man gone he's the only one here who I know to be Republican.
I'm a registered Republican but I don't discuss politics online. I have way too much else going on in my life to spend the time writing up essays and responses. :)

 #85612  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:49 pm
SineSwiper wrote:Of course, but a benevolent dictatorship is oh-so easy to usurp. In a democracy, it's slow to see action and everything is about compromising, but it's also easy to re-elect somebody else in X years. A dictatorship is quick to action and without compromises, but it takes a sizable army to remove the person in power.

So, what are ya gunna do? It's a lose-lose situation.
No more difficult than a democracy in the type of society we have today. It's just that only intelligent people will be choosing the government. If you look at Bush, he fucked up 50 times over, and still is President. He got voted in because of the large number of people who hate homosexuals in the US; who coincidently are almost all in the stupid people category. Benevolent dictatorships have existed before. Dictatorship is the wrong word: constitutional oligarchy or autocracy would be a better description. There would be balances in power as well. I also believe that there should still be systems of representation, just none with any official powers. I have MUCH more confidence in a small group of intelligent people who don't need to bullshit and aren't corrupt, than a large group of idiots who need to be bullshitted to. The idiots in society always buy the bullshit because they never learn.

Anyways, I do not think that a change in government would effect much about society in the middle class; Hong Kong is still pretty much exactly the same as it was before only now it is under a dictatorship instead of a democracy.

 #85613  by Nev
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:13 pm
Honestly Seek, the number of times you call people stupid in a day on this board sometimes really pisses me off. People have their own lives to live - they're not where you're from - and you need to understand that at times. You don't live their lives...I think you should ease up a little bit on people. And if someone really, honestly is "stupider" than you in every way...think about how much harder their life must be.

"Life fits living, so let your judgements go..." -Madonna

 #85615  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:42 pm
Actually; for what I am thinking of, dictatorship woyuld be an incorrect definition; Constitutional Oligarchy or Constitutional Autocracy would more suit what I am thinking of. So that would indicate that there would be a consitution to work with. The constitution would be under the control of the Intelligent class, as well as the selection of leadership positions within the government.

I would feel much more confident living in a country where the leader was chosen by Intelligent people than in one where the leader was chosen by a bunch of ignorant idiots.

I do not think society would change a great deal if the government system changed; I do believe that it would run much more efficiently since the people chosen for the job will be the best people suited for the jobs, and not unprofessional demagogs. I believe that many of the problems of the western world could be fixed if we had better governments.

Without a doubt, the US WOULD be a better place with a MUCH better reputation if Iraq was never invaded, Iraq certainly would be a better place had they just gone through and lifted the sanctions. I do not think war was the right way to gain control of the oil in the middle east. Does it make sense to anyone that gas prices double when certain Western powers gain control over the oil in the Middle East? All they wanted to do was jack up the price and make more profits.


Oh yeah, you have a freedom of speech because it doesn't matter what you say.

 #85619  by Nev
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:01 pm
The Seeker wrote:Oh yeah, you have a freedom of speech because it doesn't matter what you say.
Huh? O_o

I'll get to the rest of that later...

By the way, "demagogue" is spelled with a "ue" at the end, at least in modern English.

 #85635  by Julius Seeker
 Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:58 pm
Mental wrote:Honestly Seek, the number of times you call people stupid in a day on this board sometimes really pisses me off. People have their own lives to live - they're not where you're from - and you need to understand that at times. You don't live their lives...I think you should ease up a little bit on people. And if someone really, honestly is "stupider" than you in every way...think about how much harder their life must be.

"Life fits living, so let your judgements go..." -Madonna
I don't know why it angers you, that the majority of people are stupid is a plain and simple fact of life. I don't live their lives, true, but I do live in a world which they inhabit. It has nothing to do with just a simple differing of opinions, it has to do with the fact that stupid people generally do not know what is best for themselves; they make foolish mistakes, do not learn from those foolish mistakes, and generally nothing sinks into their heads. "Hyuk hyuk, the President wasted hundreds of billions of dollars, killed a lotta people that I don't even know, ruined the good name of my country, and lied to me on numerous occaisions, conquered third world countries and replaced their home government with tyrannies. Lets forget all that though it was over 3 months ago, latest news in, the President hates faggots! LETS VOTE HIM AGAIN!!!!!!"

Yeah, I do not have faith in the majority of people to make the proper decisions about the leadership of an entire country. I do not think the majority of people are qualified to do so. To use an analogy, it is the same as the entire population of people voting on which method of surgery should be used in a medical case; only those who know extensively about medical surgery should be able to make that sort of decision. It is the same with politics, most people are not qualified to make decisions about who should run a country.

 #85641  by Nev
 Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:07 am
The Seeker wrote:Nope, it's spelled demagog

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Demagog
For anyone playing the home game, here's a cut-and-paste from Seek's link...Seek, you defy words sometimes.

To anyone who might be wondering why I'm being childish about this, I usually don't poke at trivial stuff, but I thought it might bust Seek's ego a little bit to have a spelling goof pointed out in a post where he went off on how stupid the world is... However, his ego appears to be made of some kind of new space-age material that defies conventional busting methods, and more research appears to be indicated.

<hr>

dem·a·gogue also dem·a·gog Pronunciation Key (dm-gôg, -gg)
n.

1. A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace.
2. A leader of the common people in ancient times.


tr.v. dem·a·gogued, also dem·a·goged dem·a·gogu·ing, dem·a·go·ging dem·a·gogues, dem·a·goges

Usage Problem. To speak about (an issue, for example) in the manner of a demagogue.

<hr>

EDIT: Also, Seeker, a little food for thought...it is my belief that demagogues usually view the populace as unable or incapable of governing themselves in any effective manner, but they will lie about those views, or subvert the truth, whether consciously or unconsciously, in order to get into a position of power.

You're honest about your meritocratic viewpoint, which separates you from demagogues in honesty...but not in your views on "the people". You may wish to note that many of the more revered figures in American history (I don't really know about Canadian history) are those who believed in, and made contributions toward, increasing the say and power of "the people". See under the American "Founding Fathers", as well as Abraham Lincoln, off the top of my head.

I believe to a very great extent your avatar, Che Guevara, was a populist as well, though Cuban socialism is a whole other ball of wax that honestly I know very little about.

I'm sure I could dig up many more examples with a little research.
Last edited by Nev on Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:48 am, edited 6 times in total.

 #85642  by SineSwiper
 Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:20 am
The Seeker wrote:I don't know why it angers you, that the majority of people are stupid is a plain and simple fact of life. I don't live their lives, true, but I do live in a world which they inhabit. It has nothing to do with just a simple differing of opinions, it has to do with the fact that stupid people generally do not know what is best for themselves; they make foolish mistakes, do not learn from those foolish mistakes, and generally nothing sinks into their heads. "Hyuk hyuk, the President wasted hundreds of billions of dollars, killed a lotta people that I don't even know, ruined the good name of my country, and lied to me on numerous occaisions, conquered third world countries and replaced their home government with tyrannies. Lets forget all that though it was over 3 months ago, latest news in, the President hates faggots! LETS VOTE HIM AGAIN!!!!!!"
Yeah, that pretty much fits the definition of stupid. "Hey, but he'll lower our taxes!" It's funny that all of these rural people and farmers are saying this, yet majority of the taxes he reduced was the rich. Since the value of the dollar is judged on the distribution of wealth between the rich and the poor, any tax cuts that the poor got was screwed over by the value of the dollar when the rich received their cut.

Then again, maybe they aren't stupid, just ignorant. Granted, if you took the average intelligence of the country, and realize that there are actually people BELOW that intelligence, you might have a definition of stupid, but it's hard to say if that could be cured through education or not. I'm not going to be so bold as to say that the smart/stupid border was split among party lines, either; there were plenty of people who voted for Kerry for the wrong reasons, too. But voting for a person like Bush is pretty goddamn dumb. Of course, so is voting for people like Reagan and Nixon. (I often have internal debates on whether Bush Jr. was worse than those two.)
The Seeker wrote:Yeah, I do not have faith in the majority of people to make the proper decisions about the leadership of an entire country. I do not think the majority of people are qualified to do so. To use an analogy, it is the same as the entire population of people voting on which method of surgery should be used in a medical case; only those who know extensively about medical surgery should be able to make that sort of decision. It is the same with politics, most people are not qualified to make decisions about who should run a country.
Exactly. Why not have a test to get a voting license? After all, you have a test to get a driver's license, because if you didn't, people without the knowledge would be a danger to society. People without the knowledge to vote on issues is a fucking danger to society! Hell, we have a license for HAM radio. Why isn't this any different?

 #85643  by Nev
 Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:25 am
SineSwiper wrote:Exactly. Why not have a test to get a voting license? After all, you have a test to get a driver's license, because if you didn't, people without the knowledge would be a danger to society. People without the knowledge to vote on issues is a fucking danger to society! Hell, we have a license for HAM radio. Why isn't this any different?
Who makes the test?

 #85645  by SineSwiper
 Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:34 am
Mental wrote:Who makes the test?
Somebody who's knowledgable in politics. Who makes the test for driving or HAM radios? Obviously not somebody who isn't skilled at it.

 #86232  by SineSwiper
 Tue May 03, 2005 3:33 am
Case in point:

Image

 #86254  by Ishamael
 Tue May 03, 2005 11:49 pm
When you have a two party system, a population fairly ignorant of the goings-on of government, and lots of money to control media channels, crazy things can happen.

 #86258  by Nev
 Wed May 04, 2005 2:10 am
Look guys...

There's a quote by some or another pessimist: "Democracy is a terrible form of government. It's a shame that all the others are so much worse." I think it's kind of pessimistic, but it's not entirely untrue.

I have not traveled much, but my mother keeps telling me, "For all our country's flaws, go spend some serious time in any other and you'll find out ours is the best." I think "the best" may be arrogant but I think our system is pretty good. I don't like Bush either and I think there's a lot of truth to "media control" hypotheses and all that, but I get another chance to make a difference in three years - actually, more whenever I can find the resolve. Nothing stops me from most forms of political activism here. Want to live in an Arab monarchy or fundamentalist government? Trust me...as bad and horrible as things like Gitmo (Guantanamo Bay) are, I think it is highly likely that the things that go on in monarchies (real ones, Canada and the rest of the British commonwealth are excluded), fundamentalist governments, or military despotisms are even worse.

I think eventually karma will come back around. The Bush administration can't run a deficit forever, and as the effects pile up, economic and otherwise, there will be more agitation for change. Something that worries me more is the fact that there is no single nation right now that is our equal in production and military strength. Historically, all empires have eventually fallen, and I think our relative power right now is having a corrupting effect and leading to a form of American imperialism. I would not like to see the United States go down in history with a black name.

I think it would be truly inspiring if we, as a people and a nation, could buck the historical trend of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and instead usher in an age of peace and prosperity. I think the way to do this is to solve our own problems and maybe not even do more than that - leading by example is the most effective way I have seen to lead anyone or anything, and ultimately I think most empires fail because of their attempts to extend power over what they really have no control over anyway, usually other nations. As individuals, we do not possess any physical power over anything or anyone but ourselves, and a nation is (mostly) the agglomeration of the individuals within it. I really think it would be amazing if we could use our vast resources to end extremes of poverty, hunger, and homelessness within our own country.

Anyway, I'm a little off-topic...but one of the few good things I took away from my twelve-step experience (and the one I'm most profoundly grateful for) is the unalterable truth that I CANNOT control anyone or anything else. I think ultimately the kinds of "tests" you're talking about will just end up being those types of controls - you assume that you know more than the people you're testing, and you also assume that the knowledge you're testing for is the type of knowledge that's important. Even if you managed to create a fair and impartial test of this sort, how will you prevent someone else from taking control of your test (after your death, perhaps) and putting things in it that you don't agree with?

I'm one of those who thinks that the best sort of government would ultimately be none at all. In the twelve-step tradition, the leaders really are just servants, to help the people in the program lead their own lives, "happy, joyous and free" as they say. Now, I bailed on SAA because I thought the implementation of these principles left a lot to be desired and I didn't think I was learning anything, but I see now that I learned that, and ultimately it may prove to be the best thing I ever learned.

I am not sure, but I believe an analysis of history will not reveal oligarchies of the type you guys (Sine and Seek and your ideas of democracy for the "qualifying" people) to have been the most successful. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I THINK that way lie some the ideals of Nazi Germany. We basically started out something like that in this country anyway. Democracy was for the wealthy and educated white landowners. What you're advocating is a return to that type of government. It's taken us a long time to get suffrage this far, and I really don't think the right answer is to take a trip 200 years back in time.

 #86259  by SineSwiper
 Wed May 04, 2005 5:25 am
Even if we were the "best", and we aren't (just look at other first-world countries like Canada, Sweden, Amsterdam), there is nothing wrong with citing the horrible corruption and saying that it must be fixed. That kind of attitude halts evolutionary development among human beings. It's like a prisoner given a loaf of bread, and the other immates say "Well, at least it isn't moldy bread." Just because it's the "best" doesn't mean it's "good".

There are countries that are bad, many countries that are bad. However, it seems like their example is dragging us down. I call this the Could Be Worse (CBW) syndrome. Their example is proof that we shouldn't evolve, in many many Americans' eyes.

Both our military power and our corporate power is corrupting everything else. This is true. The US shouldn't be given this much power. No country should be given this much power. (What if one of those nasty fundamentalist governments has all of the power? Would you like it if Iran had all of the power?) When a UN operation goes down, it shouldn't compose of mostly US troops.

It's arguable on whether a nation that would put more money into education would affect the way the public votes, but it would definately help. Trying to downside the military and corporate power is a good start for that to happen. However, it's a paradox, since you need smart voters to vote for people who would promote them to be smart. As it is, the voters vote the very people who are keeping them stupid and gullible.

So, it's a downward spiral of ignorance and corruption, which begets more ignorance and corruption. Part of the problem is feeding into public greed, claiming for example that taxes are bad, you deserve that money, as if those taxes aren't doing anything. People seem to eat up tax cuts, no matter how much it is, how much is given to the rich, and what programs are cut. Other greed factors are the stock market ("Who cares what they do? As long as the numbers go up, I'm happy!"), and the climb to be "successful" and wealthy (Paraphrasing Chris Rock: "In order to become weathly, you have to do something immoral and evil to get that far.").

There is also the apathy factor, something that dominates a majority of our population, that destroys the rights of the minority or unpowered. This falls under the categories of blacks, gays, women, poor/middle class, and other smaller minorities that don't even fall in our radar. Remember the lesson of the monkeysphere.
Mental wrote:I'm one of those who thinks that the best sort of government would ultimately be none at all.
Anarchies don't work. They are too unstable, and it's a step in the wrong direction. Governments, communities, and laws are all designed to serve the public. Corporations are designed to serve their own interests. An anarchy is basically a "government" of corporations, where you buy your police protection, fire protection, etc., etc. And that's just basic survival. What about rights of speech or rights of equality? What's to stop somebody from shooting you? Is the police protection going to investigate the case? Could somebody with more money actually trump the police's investigation of your death so that the police corp's CEO can find his missing dog?

No, anarchies don't work because they are a much worse breeding ground for corruption than democracies are. Even a dictatorship is better than an anarchy. It's like going back to the apes. Communities and governments were started to meld some order from the chaos of animalistic instincts. Anarchies are a demostration of absolute power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mental wrote:The Bush administration can't run a deficit forever, and as the effects pile up, economic and otherwise, there will be more agitation for change.
A bit off-topic, but yes he can. He can run it until his successor takes over and takes the blame. (Just ask his father what Reagan did for him.) In the meantime, he can divert attention and shift the blame on other things. I think that was part of the reason why he invaded some country (any country), so that he could blame the war effort for his economic fuck-ups.
Mental wrote:Democracy was for the wealthy and educated white landowners. What you're advocating is a return to that type of government. It's taken us a long time to get suffrage this far, and I really don't think the right answer is to take a trip 200 years back in time.
I don't believe a test of that type would. I'm not talking about something so exclusive. I just want people who actually know the difference between the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Homeland Security, or people who know that the President and the Commander-In-Chief are the same person. Obviously, if you know information like that, you are at least paying attention to the news.

Overall, evolution is the key. We cannot evolve through the natural course of things. We will evolve through technology. All of the predictions that Ghost in the Shell is hinting at will come true. Becoming human is a liability, because the technology exists to better ourselves, especially memory. If we remembered more experiences and lived longer, we would understand the plight and emotions of other peoples through our more vivid experiences.

Curing apathy is our ultimate goal. Without apathy, you cannot become amoral or evil, and you see other people's POV more clearly.