The Shrine

Ugh. I almost PROMISED myself I'd never look for love life advice on the Shrine...but here I am.

So there's a girl I've known for...ai yai, about two and a half years now. I've been pretty attracted to her since about a week or two after I met her, but for about the first year and a half that I knew her, I was way too much of a mess to be looking for a relationship. Nine months or so ago I finally (sort of) told her how I felt, and while she didn't say yes, she didn't say no either - the response was "Let's see how it goes."

So of course, as is par for our relationship, I see her a week later and then not for another month. Now, if this were anyone else, I'd consider my chances dead in the water and move on, but she's a little bit different - for one, I think she's very skittish about guys in some ways (she's never had a boyfriend, her father died or left when she was very young), and for two, she'll go days without calling even her best friends at times. I've talked to her friends about it before, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, Lis has always been that way."

Since then we've hung out a few times, but other than that one night, there hasn't been any actual romance (that night, there was the tiniest little bit of it). We're both so busy trying to jumpstart our various careers (mine as a game developer, hers as a film editor) that neither of us have much time to do anything.

Adding to the complication is the fact that for the first few years I knew her, I didn't really think she was that pretty - she had a lot of acne and was pretty chubby. I told my friend at one point that she was "Personality 10, Emotions 10, Goodness 10 (if not 11), Beauty 4". I actually would have pressed a little harder a little while ago if not for that, but I didn't know if I could commit to someone I wasn't that physically attracted to. BUT, last time I saw her (it had been maybe even two months or longer before that), she was starting to lose weight, probably because she's working her butt off, and her acne had started to clear up...she went up to a 6 or 7 and I think she's only going to get prettier...I mean, I hate to be a guy about it, but physicality does matter to me, as I think it does to anyone.

I've never, ever been attracted to someone the way I am to her, so I dunno what to do at this point. I got to see her the other night (for like two hours, only, which sort of sucked - talk about tantalizing) and it was great, and now she's vanished again. She sent me an e-mail wherein she apologized for being MIA (as is, again, sort of a habit) - here it is:

">hey sweetie. I'm soooooooooooooooooo sorry i haven't gotten back to
>you. gosh I haven't even played the cd you gave me. I feel like a
>jerk.
>
>BUT i did google thomas' apt and found their site. I heard their band
>stuff and enjoyed it. I think you're absolutely right. They're
>definitely marketable and can find an audience VERY quickly. Some of
>the stuff needs a little oomph but in general i realllly liked it. I
>still need to hear the electronica stuff...
>
>anyway. thank you for putting up with my craziness. miss you much
>
>-Lis "

(Thomas' Apartment is my friend's band, which I've been going on about, check the Music/Movies section if interested.)

We haven't brought up the subject of a romantic/physical relationship since that night. I really don't know what to do - press on? back off? wait until our lives aren't so crazy?

Blargh. Women - can't live with them, can't seem to forget about them...

Personally, I say it's great if it happens, but try elsewhere to see if something else pops up. Basically, don't wait around for it, but don't discount the possibility either. And don't put too much effort in it. It's really up to her right now, you've told her how you feel. There seems to be genuine interest in return...to a certain extent. But she obviously has a hard time letting people get too close and do you really want to wait around for her to come around, if she does? It'll only happen if she wants it to and right now, it don't look like it. But it may, so you want to keep the option open, just don't hang your hopes on it and don't deny yourself any other opportunities that may arise (sometimes they require you to go lookin' too).

Zeus wrote: But she obviously has a hard time letting people get too close and do you really want to wait around for her to come around, if she does?

Uhhhhh...should I be saying no to that?

I'm not limiting myself by any means, and I totally wouldn't say no to someone fun or exciting if he/she (probably she) came along, but like I said this girl is pretty special to me...

Now <i>I</i> feel like a girl.

I'm pretty much out of circulation until my partner and I get a game sold anyway - like I said, I'm just working too hard.

Forget I said anything.

This is kind of why I told myself I'd never ask for advice here...

Thanks, I suppose, but 1) I can't think that you really know her after one brief description, and 2) I wouldn't say I'm pining for her nearly as hard as you seem to think I am.

Yes, she's a chronic flake in that way. It's a little bit weird, because in most other ways I know her she's more responsible than anyone else I know - she works hard and tirelessly (she was actually my "boss" for a bit when we were working retail - that's how first I got to know her - and she was a great manager, firm but still compassionate), she handles her finances and doesn't get into trouble, and when she's NOT disappearing for days (or weeks, sometimes, in my case) she's one of the best friends someone can have. She's fun and funny and a genuinely good person, though she has her hangups and mean-ness-ess as do we all.

Now, I *have* called her on this before, and she sort of avoided the issue, so, yes, that's not a good sign, and it sucked. But I wouldn't still feel the way I do about her if she didn't have a whole buttload of other good qualities.

As far as my pining for her - I'm not. I'm not keeping myself out of circulation because of her, and I'm most definitely not moping around all day because she's not as into me as I'd like. If nothing ever happens, yeah, I'll probably be sad, but only because I really would have liked to have given it a shot - but it's not as if I'm so desperately into her that it's affecting my functioning in the real world or even causing me any real distress. Occasionally I'll be like "man, I wish we could actually try this for once", but it's not like I'm sobbing in my beer about her at the bar everyday.

I've been down the road of <i>real</i> unrequited crushes more times than I'd like, and this doesn't really feel the same way. And as far as "getting on with my life" goes, I kind of think I am. I wouldn't be dating anyway right now because of my work life, my crush - or whatever it is - on this girl isn't stopping me from dating if I decided I wanted to, and I'm pretty excited about a wide variety of things in my life at present.

Ask her out. If her answer is anything less than "I'd love to," then I wouldn't give it anymore thought.

Forget I said anything.

Agent 57 wrote:I would now like to take this moment to point out that I totally called that paragraph, and thus have you pretty well pegged. Perhaps you're going to be a bit more receptive to what I have to say now? Hmm? ;)

Probably not, since he has to wade through a significant amount of condescension.

Forget I said anything.

>Ugh. I almost PROMISED myself I'd never look for love life advice on the Shrine...but here I am.

Before you read my responses, forget about everything else that everyone here has said.


>So there's a girl I've known for...ai yai, about two and a half years now. I've been pretty attracted to her since about a week or two after I met her, but for about the first year and a half that I knew her, I was way too much of a mess to be looking for a relationship. Nine months or so ago I finally (sort of) told her how I felt, and while she didn't say yes, she didn't say no either - the response was "Let's see how it goes."

Translation, it really depends on the tone she gave to you, could mean the following:
1) I don't want to be in a relationship with you, but I wouldn't mind making out or fucking on occaision.
2) I'm not interested in you.
3) You're ugly, but I don't want to insult you.
4) There are several others I'd rather have


>So of course, as is par for our relationship, I see her a week later and then not for another month. Now, if this were anyone else, I'd consider my chances dead in the water and move on, but she's a little bit different - for one, I think she's very skittish about guys in some ways (she's never had a boyfriend, her father died or left when she was very young), and for two, she'll go days without calling even her best friends at times. I've talked to her friends about it before, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, Lis has always been that way."

If she was brought up alone by her mother, and had no father influence, chances are her mother fucked up her head. Now I know there are probably exceptions to this, but from my experiences: girls brought up without a father figure in their lives always feel guilt for going out with a guy, and everything else they do for that matter. They never want to fuck, when they do, it's like once a week (which is bullshit), and that also stems from the guilt thing. They also never like having good times, which I tend to very much dislike. Also, their mothers seem to like to call them all the time. Keep away from their mothers, because they seem to always be nuts. I personally, will NOT date a girl who has no father figure in her life; burned too many times, even the times where I thought I was making a good exception. Let me guess: she's the quieter type?


>Since then we've hung out a few times, but other than that one night, there hasn't been any actual romance (that night, there was the tiniest little bit of it). We're both so busy trying to jumpstart our various careers (mine as a game developer, hers as a film editor) that neither of us have much time to do anything.

Well, maybe you don't have the time for a relationship? Personally, I think relationships suck anyways, I really hate relationships, but for some reason we always seem to naturally end up in them.

>Adding to the complication is the fact that for the first few years I knew her, I didn't really think she was that pretty - she had a lot of acne and was pretty chubby. I told my friend at one point that she was "Personality 10, Emotions 10, Goodness 10 (if not 11) , Beauty 4". I actually would have pressed a little harder a little while ago if not for that, but I didn't know if I could commit to someone I wasn't that physically attracted to. BUT, last time I saw her (it had been maybe even two months or longer before that), she was starting to lose weight, probably because she's working her butt off, and her acne had started to clear up...she went up to a 6 or 7 and I think she's only going to get prettier...I mean, I hate to be a guy about it, but physicality does matter to me, as I think it does to anyone.

Heh, you use the 1-10 scale too =)

A few of my friends have it listed out 10 highest, 1 lowest, and we assigned each number to specific girls so that we would have something to guage. For me though, I find that attitude has a lot to do with beauty, I give bonus points to girls who are outgoing and very confident. I like girls (and people in general) who think highly of themselves.


>I've never, ever been attracted to someone the way I am to her, so I dunno what to do at this point. I got to see her the other night (for like two hours, only, which sort of sucked - talk about tantalizing) and it was great, and now she's vanished again. She sent me an e-mail wherein she apologized for being MIA (as is, again, sort of a habit) - here it is:

Chances are it is because you are letting your thoughts dwell on her. If she's one of the only girls who treats you in a positive way (and is in your datability range) then chances are that is why you feel the way you do; it's natural. However, it doesn't mean you can't feel that way about a wide range of girls. Try working on your flirting skills, smile when you talk, always seem interested, always seem like you're having fun, in a good mood; in other words, keep your hooks baited or you aren't going to catch anything unless it is by accident.

">hey sweetie. I'm soooooooooooooooooo sorry i haven't gotten back to
>you. gosh I haven't even played the cd you gave me. I feel like a
>jerk.
>
>BUT i did google thomas' apt and found their site. I heard their band
>stuff and enjoyed it. I think you're absolutely right. They're
>definitely marketable and can find an audience VERY quickly. Some of
>the stuff needs a little oomph but in general i realllly liked it. I
>still need to hear the electronica stuff...
>
>anyway. thank you for putting up with my craziness. miss you much
>
>-Lis "

(Thomas' Apartment is my friend's band, which I've been going on about, check the Music/Movies section if interested.)


Don't flirt primarilly by E-mail, just a belief I have.

>We haven't brought up the subject of a romantic/physical relationship since that night. I really don't know what to do - press on? back off? wait until our lives aren't so crazy?

Personally, I would back off; but that's just me. For you: you won't see any progress unless you flirt with her, let her know of your interest. If she is not interested, she won't go out with you, if she is, then she will. For example, on MSN write something like, "______ , you are damn attractive, if you were here right now, I don't think I would be able to stop myself from sweeping you off your feet into a passionate embrace, and then giving you a kiss that would make you feel like you caught a glimpse of a sunset over the garden of eden. " See how she responds, if she likes it, she'll let you know. MSN is alright for flirting, because it's back and forth and right there, plus you can use a webcam and stuff. Still, I do think that before you do that, you should have a good offline relationship, which I think you do. And yeah, say thaty after talking to her for a while, and make sure you're always talking about something interesting just like a real conversation; you don't want to be talking about something that bores you, why should she?



>Blargh. Women - can't live with them, can't seem to forget about them...[/quote]

I prefer "Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em"

Agent 57 wrote:First, I don't recall asking for your opinion.

Since when is that how our board works? Regardless, I didn't do it for your sake, I did it for Mental's sake. I figured that if I read that and thought you were being condescending, then Mental would as well, and he'd appreciate knowing that someone agreed with him.

Agent 57 wrote:However, it was pretty much well deserved, since I believe that being an asshole in cases like this is the best way <b>to</b> help, as I've explained to Mental in separate communication.

I disagree. Instead of helping him understand the situation, you're putting him on the defensive. I think there's a decent amount of insight in the substance of what you have to say, but the manner in which you state it is counterproductive.

Agent 57 wrote:Third, I'm not pontificating on his situation from some high-and-mighty, I-know-more-than-you-so-I-get-to-be-all-snooty point of view - I've BEEN in basically his exact situation before, I didn't know enough to get myself out of it, and I fucked it up while wasting my time fucking it up.

Unless you're him, and the girl you spoke about is the same girl he's talking about, then no, you have not been in his <i>exact</i> situation. It's possible that there are differences that are significant. Honestly, I don't think that's likely. I find it more likely that your situation has enough in common with his that the same lessons can apply. But people are much more receptive when you avoid the presumption of knowing everything about their situation.

Agent 57 wrote:Fourth, the part that you quoted was after I began my initial post to him saying "I know you're going to say this, so don't bother saying it" and then he said it anyway!

Yes, because people love it when they're told what to say or think. It really helps get your point across.

Forget I said anything.

Agent 57 wrote:If you wrote your post for Mental's sake, then why did it have to be phrased in a snarky, insulting reply to me?

The way I said it felt appropriate with the way you were addressing him.

As for everything else, it's possible to be honest and forthright without being condescending. Concerning how receptive the person will be, you weren't receptive to my criticism when I took on the same tone as you.

Agent 57 wrote:Consider my method an intervention.

Which I think is the wrong attitude. Sometimes, we need to make these kinds of mistakes before we learn why it's not good for us. Things might not make sense until we've experienced it ourselves. This situation, and others like it, are not as dire as a drug addiction, and don't warrant the same level of aggressiveness.

Agent 57 wrote:The technique of anticipating someone's questions/objections and answering them before they ask them is used all over the place (F.A.Q's on controversial websites, for example). Not to mention "being told what to say or think" is the basis of every religion ever invented. I don't fault myself for thinking that method just might work.

FAQs are passive. Again, it was the way in which you said it, which served to put him on the defensive.

Agent 57 wrote:Look, Kupek, as I said, you make some good points here, and we're basically having the same discussion we had when Eric had his love life problem last year, so let's just agree to respectfully disagree.

My difficulty is that I don't feel you're being equally respectful to the person it is you're giving advice to.

Agent 57 wrote:Except on the "line" Seeker suggested Mental use on MSN - can we both agree that that is the cheesiest freaking thing we've ever read, and that using it will result in him getting outright laughed at or creeping the girl out such that he never hears from her again?

I couldn't even make myself read all of Seeker's post, but if it was a suggestion from him, I'll agree it was probably a bad one. But I think the chances of Mental taking advice from Seeker are low.

At this point, I'm sorry I ever wrote the damn thing.

Agent 57 wrote:I'm not pontificating on his situation from some high-and-mighty, I-know-more-than-you-so-I-get-to-be-all-snooty point of view...

What's that? You want Kali to post something? Fine...

Ugh. I almost PROMISED myself I'd never look for love life advice on the Shrine...but here I am.

Ummm...hey, here's an idea...stick to that promise.

Nine months or so ago I finally (sort of) told her how I felt, and while she didn't say yes, she didn't say no either - the response was "Let's see how it goes."

So I'm confused? Are you casually dating? Screwing? Friends? I have no idea... Regardless, if that really was her response to you, ummm, sure sounds like a half-assed attempt at saying by not saying, "No, I don't feel the same way about you". (Tip: Lack of "enthusiasm" on their part is never a good sign).

I'd consider my chances dead in the water and move on, but she's a little bit different.....etc.

Wow, this chick sounds pretty flaky (then again, you "appear" to act fairly flaky sometimes). Or maybe you like flaky? To each their own but it sounds like more trouble than it's worth (and I'm not hearing a whole lot of effort on her part...seems more and more one-sided the more I read).

her father died or left when she was very young

Geeze, if you don't actually know this after knowing her for years, my guess is you are not as close as you estimate yourself to be....?

she had a lot of acne and was pretty chubby

You aren't making her "sound" very appealing on either physical attractiveness or personality. I hope there is ALOT more to her to justify your interest.

We haven't brought up the subject of a romantic/physical relationship since that night. I really don't know what to do - press on? back off? wait until our lives aren't so crazy?

You can pretty much ignore everything else I said up to here - it was little more than filler as I contemplated my answer to this part (based on your post).

She isn't showing a hell of alot of enthusiasm or effort when it comes to a "real" relationship with you - which to me personally, sounds like a 100% "No thank you" on her part (though she seems fine with remaining friends/fuck friends/or whatever the hell you are to each other right now). If you agree with the above, then your next move is pretty simple...

*whips out his trusty Scale of Hedonism*

If the aspects of your current relationship bring you more pleasure/enjoyment than the potential self-inflicted negativity from the aspects you don't have, then stick with it (but I wouldn't exactly obligate yourself in any way to her. ie: keep dating others).

If you feel the reverse is true (dumb in my estimation), then move on and stick to "just friends".

Doesn't seem very complicated to me... Maybe I am missing something.

Good luck,

KO-

edited

Just FYI (all of you), I'm no longer actually reading the replies to this thread.

Aww snap, even before I got my two cents in.

I think it's kinda odd that she disappears for as long as she does without letting anyone know. I mean, I know people need space, but shit, falling off the face of the earth almost then appearing when it's she's ready too? Come on, she's trying her best to make it all about her it sounds like, if you really want to read into it that's what I think anyway. I dunno what I'd do, but I'd have a real problem with her disappearing and re-appearing whenever she wanted too. I mean, if even her best friends don't know where she is that has to say something, she's incapable of letting people in almost. I don't know what type of friends she has that would let her do such a thing either, but it all seems odd to me, though I can sympathize with your attraction, I've had similar ones in the past, but they never panned out, if anything it was just a one night stand. I agree with seeker also, e-mail flirting is not good, voice mail is better in my opinion.