The Shrine

I edited all of my responses in Mental's thread to "forget I said anything", and I'm done giving advice here, since I obviously don't know how to do it right, as evidenced by the fact that I tried to help and fucked up spectacularly.

And I'm not blaming anyone but myself - at my game last night, I tried instructing one of our newer players on the proper place to go when he got lost in one of our non-standard offensive sets, and after I finished one of my teammates exclaimed "that was *so* condescending!" as she playfully pulled my hat over my eyes. So apparently I do it IRL as well. Must work on that.

So. I apologize for being an asshole, and will resume my regularly scheduled lurking with occasional posts about games or comics or other such BS.

Sorry.

So, um...

Can I get an "apology accepted" post from somebody? Mental (and possibly Kupek) in particular?

Would be much appreciated.

I didn't interpret it as an apology, more as "I've decided I need time to think about how I come across to other people, so I'm going to be quiet for a bit." I couldn't come up with anything constructive to add to that, so I figured it was best if I said nothing.

I once had a girlfriend tell me that I was too aggressive in conversations and discussions, and it had a profound impact on me. I was really upset, because that's not how I wanted to come across at all, particularly with her. But, in retro-retrospect, that was also when the relationship was on the way down due to miscommunication in general, so I think we were both harboring resentment of each other.

My point, which might have been lost in the previous paragraph: I know how you feel. But, I think you might be too harsh on yourself. You don't need to disappear. You can reevaluate how you communicate and still, you know, communicate.

I still need to read the private message you sent, then I'll respond.

I mostly agree with Kup - I think he was right on with the following:

Kupek wrote:I didn't interpret it as an apology, more as "I've decided I need time to think about how I come across to other people, so I'm going to be quiet for a bit." I couldn't come up with anything constructive to add to that, so I figured it was best if I said nothing.

Really, the future matters more to me than the past. I'm not really one to dwell on past arguments or conflicts for very long (there are a few notable exceptions to that, but it's not worth getting into). If it's important to you - sure, apology accepted. But I'd rather just see how our interactions work out in the future than try to patch things up and make everything nice again for the sake of having things be nice.

Agent 57 wrote:So. I apologize for being an asshole, and will resume my regularly scheduled lurking with occasional posts about games or comics or other such BS.

I'd be sorry to hear that, because I got to see a side of you I'd never seen before during this whole interaction. Just because something blew up once doesn't mean it's not worth interacting on more serious topics.

Anyway, it's not like I haven't had an argument with practically everyone at the Shrine at this point.

Let's see...who haven't I fought with yet...Eric, Mansh, Barret...hmmmm....(resists urge to take a page from Kali and start some shit up just to have a perfect record)

Agent 57 wrote:I edited all of my responses in Mental's thread to "forget I said anything", and I'm done giving advice here, since I obviously don't know how to do it right, as evidenced by the fact that I tried to help and fucked up spectacularly.

And I'm not blaming anyone but myself - at my game last night, I tried instructing one of our newer players on the proper place to go when he got lost in one of our non-standard offensive sets, and after I finished one of my teammates exclaimed "that was *so* condescending!" as she playfully pulled my hat over my eyes. So apparently I do it IRL as well. Must work on that.

So. I apologize for being an asshole, and will resume my regularly scheduled lurking with occasional posts about games or comics or other such BS.

Sorry.

Fuck that shit...

Your opinion is your opinion...if people don't like it they shouldn't ask for it in the first place. And if people think you're condescending, so what? Did you intend to be condescending? If not, why are you apologizing for your opinion? Why are you apologizing for trying to help someone, be it Mental or the dude on your team?

Too often people confuse honesty with arrogance...give your opinion, give your advice and if people don't like it, fuck them...it's your goddam opinion, it's your advice. You aren't charging money for it. They can take it or leave it...

Don't change who you are to make other people happy...it's a waste of time. You are who you are...if someone can't deal with that they can fuck off...

I've known you online for quite awhile now though I've been out of touch lately, but I've never sensed anything condescending or arrogant in any conversation I've had with you...I even remember your problem with the gal you mentioned in Mental's post and the emails between you, me and Sabin in regards to that...you were coming from an honest place in trying to help Mental...don't deny that or go back on it just because he didn't like the advice you gave or the way you gave it.

When we stop being honest with ourselves and each other, it's just a big waste of time...

Yeah your opinion meant alot to me Agent. I even went ahead and read David DeAngelo's book.

Life's good again.

Hey, Eric, probably not a good idea to have a damn near 1 meg file in your sig :shock:

What? People still use 56k or something?

I would have to agree with Esque. There's no reason to apologize for your opinion, especially when somebody is asking for your opinion.

Eric wrote:What? People still use 56k or something?

That's not the issue, although it is excessive. My problem is that a 1MB animated gif slows down my browser somewhat.

Eric wrote:What? People still use 56k or something?

*cough*

Agent 57 wrote:So. I apologize for being an asshole
Sorry.

Kupek wrote:I didn't interpret it as an apology

Just read this again...am I missing something?

EsquE wrote:Just read this again...am I missing something? :P

The thought process in my head, yes. I knew he was apologizing in some respect, but I didn't think he was looking for a response, and I really didn't have one.

As for what Esque and Sine have said, sometimes we come across in ways we don't intend. We may not see it, but others do. I think there's value in taking criticism from others and taking the time to determine if you think there's some merit to it. You may decide you don't agree with their assesment and see no reason to change your behavior, but I think it's still worthwhile to constantly question yourself and determine if you're acting in a way that you're comfortable with.

Kupek wrote:

EsquE wrote:Just read this again...am I missing something?

The thought process in my head, yes. I knew he was apologizing in some respect, but I didn't think he was looking for a response, and I really didn't have one.

As for what Esque and Sine have said, sometimes we come across in ways we don't intend. We may not see it, but others do. I think there's value in taking criticism from others and taking the time to determine if you think there's some merit to it. You may decide you don't agree with their assesment and see no reason to change your behavior, but I think it's still worthwhile to constantly question yourself and determine if you're acting in a way that you're comfortable with.

Hmmm...can't quite think of a situation where a person who apologizes wouldn't want some kind of recognition that the apology was accepted or not. If I went to somebody and said, "Hey, sorry for hitting you with my car the other day." and they said nothing, I'd think they might have a problem with me.

I agree there is merit in taking criticism...I have a problem with the concept of constantly questioning yourself and your behavior and how that is reflected in others. Occasionally maybe....but to do that constantly would be completely stifling and counterproductive to developing any kind of personality whatsoever. You'd be the equivalent of an egg...boring and white and completely flawless on the outside, spineless goo on the inside.

I don't mind criticism, but I prefer people to accept me for who I am...trying to please everyone is just futile...and fucking boring. That's the whole reason I even bothered getting involved in this little debacle...I'd hate to see someone I like shut themselves down, change themselves over something as pointless as what started this. Perception is a funny thing...

Wtf, did everyone on this board turn into a fucking pussy? C'mon people, we've all been here long enough! Fighting is what holds this place together, stop apologizing!

BTW I just went back and read the thread-in-question, because I like saying shit and getting the facts straight afterwards.

Oh man, that thread is GOLD. Shrine archive material there.

I think that for anybody "fighter" who finally gets pissy and leaves, another one of us "turns evil" and becomes the fighter. It's like the "Dark Quickening" concept in Highlander. Balance must be maintained!

EsquE wrote:Hmmm...can't quite think of a situation where a person who apologizes wouldn't want some kind of recognition that the apology was accepted or not. If I went to somebody and said, "Hey, sorry for hitting you with my car the other day." and they said nothing, I'd think they might have a problem with me.

Let me put it this way: I didn't think an apology was warranted, but I thought it best to just let it be.

EsquE wrote:I agree there is merit in taking criticism...I have a problem with the concept of constantly questioning yourself and your behavior and how that is reflected in others. Occasionally maybe....but to do that constantly would be completely stifling and counterproductive to developing any kind of personality whatsoever. You'd be the equivalent of an egg...boring and white and completely flawless on the outside, spineless goo on the inside.

I don't mind criticism, but I prefer people to accept me for who I am...trying to please everyone is just futile...and fucking boring. That's the whole reason I even bothered getting involved in this little debacle...I'd hate to see someone I like shut themselves down, change themselves over something as pointless as what started this. Perception is a funny thing...

Now we're basically getting into an issue of semantics. I don't think people should get up in the morning and then wonder if that was the right course of action. But if someone criticizes you, I think it's worth your while to determine if they may be right. That is not counter to developing a unique personality, and nor is it tailoring yourself to other's whims. If you rationaly determine that their criticism is legitamite, then it doesn't matter if it came from someone else or from yourself.

All righty...now that I've had some time to think about all this (most of it involuntary since I have no web access during the weekend and my account was screwed up since Friday), I just have a few things to say.

First, I need to thank EsquE and Eric for backing me up (and Sine as well for backing up the principle EsquE was talking about). That definitely made me feel better.

Second, regarding the discussion about convictions versus criticism. I agree that there is merit in taking criticism, but I also agree with standing by your convictions, and in most situations I wouldn't have overreacted as I did. However, with the following in mind:

<b>a)</B> this is an internet forum that I visit in my off moments at work;

<b>b)</b> this is the second time I've gotten in a fight with multiple people here due to my views on dating & male-female relationships and my methods of dispensing them (although only the first time I'd actually gotten into a fight with the person *asking* for advice in the first place);

and perhaps most relevant to the post that opened this thread, <b>c)</b> I don't need this kind of drama in my otherwise very enjoyable life;

I figured my best course of action was just to do a 180 and keep my opinions to myself from now on. I wouldn't have said anything about it if this weren't an online discussion and the thread wasn't viewable by everybody, but I felt an apology was warranted for my condescending behavior.

See, whether I'm coaching or giving love advice, I try to be honest and straightforward with a minimum of sugarcoating or coddling - i.e. I'm usually not afraid to tell somebody that I think what they're doing is completely wrong - but there's a fine line between that and condescension, and I went over that line during my second post to Mental in his thread. It was not my intention, but I got clumsy with my words (which is the sort of thing I need to work on) and I felt it deserved an apology. Note that I apologized for being an asshole, not a hardass - there's a difference.