The Shrine

I read your response, Barret - thanks for not being a dickhead, as some others here seem to enjoy being - but I really am pretty serious that this thread doesn't have much bearing on my actions anymore.

Y'all can debate my relationships as long as you like - however and meanwhile, I'll be over here living my life. Have fun, guys.

Errrr...okay, but you were the one who asked for our opinion.

Not really that interested anymore.

Just man it up and be like, "Listen bitch, we're going out this weekend and there are two things you can do about it: nothing and like it."

That may be the first good piece of advice I've gotten yet.

And then smack her and demand that she cook you a steak dinner. Chicks dig that.

Is this before or after I get her a vacuum cleaner for a birthday present?

LOL! "You should move in with me...seriously! Look what I got you."

Don't forget to demand sex when she's in the middle of something sporting puppy dog eyes and saying "Puuuullllllleeeeeezzzzzz????"

Do you not have anything better to do, Tort?

Not like it takes more than 15 seconds to hit quote and submit.

Ya know what, Tort, fuck off, and fuck your mother.

Sincerely,
Mental

Reasonably sure I can't fuck a pile of ashes, and out of deference to her, I think I'll avoid testing this theory.

Cheers!

Tortolia wrote:Reasonably sure I can't fuck a pile of ashes, and out of deference to her, I think I'll avoid testing this theory.

Cheers!

Oh god. I seriously missed out on Shrine Drama. @_@

Tort, you've made a very good point there, especially in light of go fuck your mother. Now that I know about go fuck your mother, I have to conclude that the best way for us to resolve this situation is go fuck your mother!

I hope that we've made some real progress here.

P.S. Go fuck your mother.

Mental wrote:Tort, you've made a very good point there, especially in light of go fuck your mother. Now that I know about go fuck your mother, I have to conclude that the best way for us to resolve this situation is go fuck your mother!

I hope that we've made some real progress here.

P.S. Go fuck your mother.

Now THAT was cold.

Mental wrote:Tort, you've made a very good point there, especially in light of go fuck your mother. Now that I know about go fuck your mother, I have to conclude that the best way for us to resolve this situation is go fuck your mother!

I hope that we've made some real progress here.

P.S. Go fuck your mother.

In case he was unclear, his mother died a few years ago.

I did gather that, but Tort pisses me off lately. Everything he posts is either supercilious or sarcastic. So I apologize if I've given offense, but...go fuck your mother!

Couldn't resist. This thread may actually be teaching me an important life lesson, which is that far from what I'd been taught and believed for many years, my quality of life may actually not go down if I start acting like an asshole. In fact, it may be just the reverse!

Mental wrote:I did gather that, but Tort pisses me off lately. Everything he posts is either supercilious or sarcastic. So I apologize if I've given offense, but...go fuck your mother!

Couldn't resist. This thread may actually be teaching me an important life lesson, which is that far from what I'd been taught and believed for many years, my quality of life may actually not go down if I start acting like an asshole. In fact, it may be just the reverse!

I find it ironic, then, that the most inappropriate comment I've seen on the shrine came from you.

What are you supposed to be, Kup, my dad? I don't think I've ever heard the word "inappropriate" used outside of parents/teachers/elder authority figures trying to teach kids how to behave. Take your false maturity somewhere else.

I tempered my words. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

It was the meanest, most vicious comment I have seen on this board, used in a comparitively petty squabble. I used the word "inappropriate" because I don't think it's warranted to try to use the death of someone's mother against him because his comments made you feel insecure.

I have no desire to use the death of his mother against him, but you know what? We are, most likely, unless science makes some HUGE leaps forward in our lifetimes, all going to die someday. My mom is going to die, as is my dad, my sister, my brother, and me. I don't think that just because someone mentions that a family member is dead, there needs to ALWAYS necessarily be this great outpouring of human compassion.

When someone says "Go fuck your mother", usually they don't mean it literally, and neither did I. It was sort of a way to express to Tort that basically I thought he was being a tool. When he busted out with that same snide sarcasm that I believe I've been talking about recently in relation to his posts, I thought I'd continue on with that sentiment, since I think it ought to be pretty fucking obvious to everyone that I'm not intending it literally. If I *were* to bring that into the realm of the literal, THAT, for example, would be something I'd consider inappropriate. And if it hurt his feelings - well, honestly, good, because maybe it'll make him think twice about being sarcastic about almost every goddamn thing he posts about.

If it was my mother and someone else had been talking about her that way to me? Well, if it was me, and she died *yesterday*, yeah, I'd think that person was a heartless bastard. However, you said it happened a few years ago, and I'd sort of judged (with the possibility of error I'll admit) that the wound wasn't too fresh. Sorry if this means I'm a hearless, uncompassionate sonofabitch, but you know what? People die. You grieve, but eventually, unless you want their death to destroy your life, you move on. Not that it isn't important to remember the dead, and appreciate the depth of feeling they have brought to your life - and hopefully you to theirs - but when it gets to be this taboo to be making "inappropriate" comments, in my own personal belief system, it's rather time to lighten up and stop taking this whole thing so motherfucking seriously.

There was a time when I would not have thought this way, but this is the way I feel right now.

Sincerely,
Andrew

I'm going to be serious for the first time in this thread, which I'm not entirely sure is justified given the turn it took.

Look, Mental. You ask for relationship advice, starting very first with the VERY LARGE CAVEAT that you normally wouldn't do this, which lays out a giant fucking emotional minefield that we have to tiptoe through if we want to get involved.

And some of the Shriners do that. And they give good advice. And then Kali posts, charging straight ahead through said minefield. You respond by doing the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, saying "LA LA LA LA LA" really loudly, taking your ball, and going home (a conversational tactic of dubious value in the first place, assuming it's actually carried through). You completely do a 180, keep reading, keep responding more than anyone. And yes, I find humor value in that.

The problem with responding to Kali as you did is he gave good advice. I'm not denigrating anything that anyone else in the thread giving advice said, because they raised valid points too. But Kali was blunt, Kali charged straight forward, and he apparently set off some of those landmines I metaphorically referred to.

This is endemic of a trend I've seen since you've been back - you focus almost exclusively on how things are being posted, not what is being posted. That does a disservice to everyone here. We're all goddamn adults. We can handle some swearing, a little back and forth insulting, because we've all been here for years. We don't need a fucking nanny.

People like Kali are fantastic to have around, because they cut through the layers of protective bullshit that we all put up and tell us what we need to hear, not what we want to hear. And you just dismissed it completely because he doesn't coddle any of us.

I don't have any particular advice for your love life, given that you've already got a lot of viewpoints up there, and I have no particular stake in it anyway. I just find it amusing that you threw it all out the window because one person didn't play nicey nicey by your standards.

So continue on. If anyone else has advice for Mental's love life, don't let this threadjack stop it. If you want to keep making "yo mama" cracks, feel free, I wasn't offended by the first one, which is why I actually responded to it.

But seriously, stop worrying so goddamn much about our tones of voice and listen to what we're saying. Otherwise this is just a message board circle jerk with no redeeming value aside from raising postcounts.

Carry on.

Tort can take hits like a pro. I'm not worried about his feelings. He's also made it clear that if someone accidentily says a "your mamma" without knowing that his mother is in fact dead, he won't read into it more than what was meant. However, once it was made clear to you that his mother was dead, you tried to use that against him.

That's malicious, and in your case, hypocritical, and I felt compelled to call you out on it.

All righty.

First off, I didn't read Kali's post past the original "Here's an idea, stick to your guns if you say you're never going to look for love life advice here" comment, which I found incredibly offensive. I'd already been so turned off by Agent 57's advice that I didn't think it was worth it to open myself up to more abrasive-style advice on a subject that is sensitive to me. (Yes, I realize there's some hypocrisy in me refusing to acknowledge potential sensitivity by Tort around his mother's death and then going and being enough of a "wuss" to admit to so much sensitivity about this subject that I stopped reading posts.) So I posted that to try to let people know I wasn't reading things anymore and to not waste their time posting anything else. I don't do the whole "LA LA LA LA LA" fingers-in-my-ears thing - if I read something I don't agree with, I'm a hell of a lot more likely to tell you so than I am to pretend I didn't and scream loudly that my opinion is better than yours. Without meaning to be too harsh to Seek (not that maybe he doesn't need it), one Seeker is more than enough for any board.

I don't find Kali nearly as "useful" as you do. I respect him for telling the truth a lot closer to how things really are, probably more than many here, but that's about the only respect I have for him, because his straight-talking is usually tempered with a good gob of dismissiveness and (it almost seems to me) disregard, and like you, I don't have much respect for someone whose mind seems to be set before the discussion even gets going, or who seems so keen on disregarding things that don't agree with HIS particular point of view. After reading his post now, yes, he had a good point or two, but not really good enough for me to consider it worth putting up with his bullshit - and , it wasn't really anything I hadn't already considered myself anyway.

As for the girl, I've had every goddamn thought you guys are posting - especially as far as the "she never calls me so she doesn't really seem interested" thing goes. Believe me, I am very aware of that, and in my life I believe I have moved past pressing my interest on people who are not interested.

As you noticed, I focus a lot these days on "how", not just "what", which may be part of the problem here. I go a lot by feel these days - and every time I'm with her I do get the feeling that she enjoys my company. We've held hands/arm in arm/that sort of thing before, and I've felt feelings coming off of her that I usually associate with interest. I also know her a hell of a lot better than you guys do. Yes, the possibility is firmly in my mind that she's not really interested, probably stronger than it was when I started, so if you're thinking my mind is closed or was before I even started posting, then you're wrong about that too.

As far as what Kali posted about me not really being "close" because I don't know whether her father left or died, what the fuck does it matter? I haven't brought it up because I don't want to upset her and I have a feeling it may be a sensitive subject. Whatever the case, he's not around now, and I know she can be skittish around guys. Something I didn't share with you guys was something else she said the night we talked about getting together - she said, when I asked her if she wanted to try to be a little bit more than friends, "I have this way of screwing things up." I'd ask whether or not that sounded like someone who wasn't considering the possibility - but at this point, like I said, I'm not sure even I want to consider romantic advice from some of you anymore. I mean, do you guys who've been trying to give advice even have girlfriends? (Agent 57 is exempt from this part of the question, since he talked about that a little bit to me privately.) Are you happy with your own romantic lives? If not, what the hell makes you think you're even qualified to start giving advice? - much less advice that seems mostly to amount to "She's not into you, stop being a pussy, move on." You guys seem keen on being sure you know how things are between myself and her. There are many layers of communication between people, and I can't communicate most of the more important ones that I take as evidence that my chances aren't completely dead - such as tone of voice and body language. To me, it's just not worth it to try to describe those in writing - for one, it takes awhile, and for another, it's HIGHLY subjective; you'd only be getting my subjective description of how her tone or body language sounded to me, as opposed to how things really were.

I know I asked for advice in an open question. I don't know that it was a mistake - there have been some good things about this discussion - but I'm kind of offended that you guys dismissed me, my chances with this girl, and my credibility as a poster here because of what seemed to have been perceived by some of you to be a beta-male wishful-thinking staying-in-fantasy-over-reality-because-it's-nicer-there attitude on my part. It is NO LONGER FUCKING TRUE in my life. I used to be like that, and it cost me a lot of tears and pain to not be like that anymore - and honestly, if I get some more money together, I will offer to come to wherever you guys are and have a good old knockdown dragout fucking fistfight with anyone who wants to keep saying so. I didn't toughen myself up for a hell of a long time just to let some of you basically call me a pussy - which is a highly subjective opinion, but that's how I'm perceiving some of this. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Somehow I have a feeling this is going to pull some responses, so I'll just stop there and wait for what y'all (Tort, Kup, Kali, whoever else is involved in this whole discussion) to come back at me.

Kupek wrote:Tort can take hits like a pro. I'm not worried about his feelings. He's also made it clear that if someone accidentily says a "your mamma" without knowing that his mother is in fact dead, he won't read into it more than what was meant. However, once it was made clear to you that his mother was dead, you tried to use that against him.

That's malicious, and in your case, hypocritical, and I felt compelled to call you out on it.

Again, Kup, there was no intent on my part to use that piece of information specifically against him. I never once had a thought like "ooooh! his mom's dead? I bet he feels REALLY bad about that. let's make him feel worse because I don't like him!" I'd consider that pretty weak, and sort of repugnant.

I thought it would be offensive, and possibly funny depending on the thick-skinned-ness of the reader - I thought the language was inventive anyway - and I was in somewhat of a bad mood last night regarding an argument I'd had with a friend of mine, which is not intended as an excuse, more of an explanation of why I was inclined to be abrasive and insensitive and an asshole rather than empathetic and/or thoughtful. (It was over a game of Magic: The Gathering - for some reason that game brings out a lot of insecurities in me...but you want to talk about stuff where the subjective experience isn't really in line with the more petty reality, that's a massive one right there.) Again, it wasn't intended literally - it was pretty much just to see if I could piss him off or get a rise out of him, since his sarcasm pisses me off so much. Maybe it was a mistake, I don't know. I thought it was sort of funny.

Now, if you want to accuse me of rampant and nearly-out-of-control insensitivity, guilty as charged. But there was, and is, no desire on my part to make Tort feel bad specifically about his mother's death, and if it was interpreted as that, please let me know. Like I said, I have no real desires in that direction - I'd think that would be pretty, well, petty.

Mental wrote:Somehow I have a feeling this is going to pull some responses, so I'll just stop there and wait for what y'all (Tort, Kup, Kali, whoever else is involved in this whole discussion) to come back at me.

I've said my peace.

Indeed. And now you're hoping I won't accuse you of the same thing that you just accused me of? I.E., running away when someone responds with something you don't want to hear?

I told the truth in my response, Tort. You basically accused me of running away when confronted with something I didn't like, which isn't really what happened. I stopped posting more because I didn't want to spend the next five days explaining why I thought people were wrong, or clarifying the nature of my relationship with this girl, or other things that would have taken pages and pages. I certainly didn't stop posting because I thought Kali had my number and didn't want to face the truth.

Anyway, it's your right and your prerogative, but at least part of me wonders if you're not doing the same goddamn thing you just called me on.

And if you want petty, Kup - it's "piece", not "peace".

Sincerely,
me

Shit...I can stop watching Passions if this keeps going...

BTW Mental...it's in bad taste to ask for advice and then piss on the people that give it to you. I think you understand this, but for some reason you just keep digging...

The only advice I'll give is if you really want this girl to like you, treat her the way you just treated everyone here that bothered to try and help you out...most chicks dig that...

I doubt you'll get a healthy relationship out of it, but the sex will be pretty goddam nasty...

I would argue that it depends on the quality of the actual desire to help that is present in the advice, and like I keep saying, my interest in actually getting any advice on this subject has shifted to either defensiveness or complete disinterest, depending on who's currently trying to give it - I'm more than willing, and would be completely happy and in fact would think it will most likely be better for everyone, to not to get any more advice on the subject at all at this point. I have a feeling the overall carnage level of this thread has got to be competing with the all-time biggest Shrine bloodbaths by now, so maybe we ought to give it a rest.

Mental wrote:I would argue that it depends on the quality of the actual desire to help that is present in the advice

I'd have to argue that you're really wrong there...the desire to help is pretty much implied by their taking the time to give you advice. Do you really think people replied to your request for the sole purpose of pissing you off? To mock your feelings or try and give you shit advice on purpose? Your whole reaction to this has truly confounded me...

Mental wrote:and like I keep saying, my interest in actually getting any advice on this subject has shifted to either defensiveness or complete disinterest, depending on who's currently trying to give it - I'm more than willing, and would be completely happy and in fact would think it will most likely be better for everyone, to not to get any more advice on the subject at all at this point.

Great...don't really wanna give you advice on your love life anyway...sore subject. But here's some advice on getting advice from people. Take it or leave it...don't lose your mind over it. Cuz you're gonna get it whether you like it or not, and you're going to get it mainly from people that actually give a shit about you. But you're probably better off getting it from people that don't give a shit because they'll be the most honest with you...too bad most people mistake honesty for rudeness.

Mental wrote:I have a feeling the overall carnage level of this thread has got to be competing with the all-time biggest Shrine bloodbaths by now, so maybe we ought to give it a rest.

Doubtful...the echoes of Wolfsamurai/Seeker still ring loudly in here...this falls more into the category of vastly entertaining. I'm not sensing too many truly hurt feelings. Agent will bounce back...and just let me say your opinion of him is about 99% wrong, but it sounds like you might be figuring that out for yourself.

Man, and I thought WoW had drama.

I can't help but chuckle at the fact that my original post contained two copies...one from the good me, one from the bad me, both saying the same thing. I deleted one cause I figured a certain someone wouldn't "get" the attempt at humor - in good taste or not. And I deleted the "assholish" part...

So either I've learned that someones expectations (and the first typed line) of a response can entirely colour how they choose to view it or...I'm a prick even when specifically trying not to be.

Either way, this whole thread is pretty fucking funny.

Tortolia wrote:Reasonably sure I can't fuck a pile of ashes, and out of deference to her, I think I'll avoid testing this theory.

Anyway, as I read on, I was quite surprised that this wasn't the end of the argument. A comment such as "Go fuck your mother" followed by a comment such as "I can't fuck ashes" is usually a mood changer. This would never be followed by another "Go fuck your mother" comment, as the offender would no doubt know that his mother is dead, and dead mother insults are generally a low blow, especially when uttered in a serious tone.

So, yes, Mental, for one who is so fucking uptight about not abusing your feelings, everybody hear agrees that:

1. You asked for our opinion, so don't bitch if you don't actually like our opinion. In some cases, not liking our opinion is a common reflexive reaction to things that you know are true but don't want to hear. This is very common when it comes to relationships. Granted, we aren't relationship experts, but we've been in quite a few relationships and collectively we understand the situations that have been brought forth. The very fact that our judgement isn't as clouded as the person asking for advise is perspective enough for said advise to be somewhat valuable.

2. Insulting Tort's mother was low, childish, and extremely hypocritical.

This is very unbecoming behavior from the founder of this place, who created Ruminations for enlighten conversation, only to enter an enlightened thread and turn it into shit, and then put across the most damning insult I have ever seen in my 7-8 years of maintaining this place. (Shit, I've had some flamewars over religion in the past, but telling somebody to go fuck their dead mother?!)

I agree with 100% of what Tort and Kupek have said. It doesn't matter HOW anything is said here, but WHAT is said. Most of us aren't going to bother with your minefields just because you can't take it, but we aren't here to fuck you over or insult you either. You seem to have a lack of trust in why we say whatever we say, or think that we hate you just for spite and we are here to make your life hell. We would be giving you advice to try to make your situation better, and your response is "Fuck it, I'm not listening any more, and go fuck your mother!"? Talk about biting the hand that feeds it!

It's somewhat of a hard trait to acquire, but learn not to be totally reactive to what anybody says, especially on the net. What words were said is not exactly what the tone or idea of what is actually being put across. Written word is not the most expressive method of communication, but it is more thoughtout than the immediate spoken word. By immediately posting off-the-cuff, the benefits of written word are replaced by its weaknesses.

That's not to say that everybody shouldn't post whatever is on their mind at the moment, because not everybody has the time to completely think out if the words completely convey the meaning they should. But, one should realize that there are underlying meanings/tones of what is being said that you wouldn't understand without asking to elaborate. Immediately assuming that the tones are what you think they are is somewhat dangerous, especially when assuming the worst tone among friends who have been chatting online for 8 years. Even now, I'm still surprised at how some people have become so pissed at the friendly jabs that I've posted here, even though I've chatted with them for years.

SineSwiper wrote:

Tortolia wrote:Reasonably sure I can't fuck a pile of ashes, and out of deference to her, I think I'll avoid testing this theory.

I don't know why the hell you posted that comic but it made me laugh.

Eric wrote:I don't know why the hell you posted that comic but it made me laugh.

I guess it's my version of a "P0w3ned" pic or "BURN!", as it would normally be the end of the argument.

Mental wrote:Are you happy with your own romantic lives? If not, what the hell makes you think you're even qualified to start giving advice?

Um, <i><b>you asked</i></b>.

Mental wrote:I know I asked for advice in an open question. I don't know that it was a mistake - there have been some good things about this discussion - but I'm kind of offended that you guys dismissed me, my chances with this girl

You're taking personal offense because we gave you advice that you didn't like. That's juvenile. Frankly, I generally don't think asking other people for relationship advice is worthwhile, which is why I told you to just ask her out. But from what you've said, I don't think she's interested in you. That's not a personal attack on you. You need to learn how to handle hearing what you don't want to hear, and until you do, you shouldn't ask open questions.

Mental wrote:and honestly, if I get some more money together, I will offer to come to wherever you guys are and have a good old knockdown dragout fucking fistfight with anyone who wants to keep saying so. I didn't toughen myself up for a hell of a long time just to let some of you basically call me a pussy - which is a highly subjective opinion, but that's how I'm perceiving some of this.

One, that's also juvenile. Two, and I'm not being glib here, you seriously should reconsider making open threats. The most important thing I've learned from the Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and some Muay Thai that I've done is don't get in a fight unless you have to. You have no way of gauging a person's skill until you've seen them at work.

Mental wrote:Again, Kup, there was no intent on my part to use that piece of information specifically against him. I never once had a thought like "ooooh! his mom's dead? I bet he feels REALLY bad about that. let's make him feel worse because I don't like him!" I'd consider that pretty weak, and sort of repugnant.

That's exactly how I interpreted your comment, and I don't see any other way to interpret it.

Is it worth me responding to all of this? I haven't read anything since my last major post - I skimmed over Kup's last reply - and I have a feeling this could just go on and on forever. Is anyone besides me tired of this yet?

Kup, you seem to be more...something, I don't know what the right adjective would be...about this than anyone else, so if you have a serious issue with my posts, I suggest we talk over ICQ/AIM or something. That goes for everyone else as well. I'm happy to keep talking about the issues, but I have no desire to waste more hours typing up posts.

Sincerely,
Andrew

An absolutely funny thing is that very recentlyl Mental said that there was no room for disparagment on this board.

*Sigh*

My problem with your disparagement, Seek, is that it's usually completely out of the blue and with little provocation. Now, yes, I'd agree that what I said to Tort would qualify there. And it seems that people have reacted to me the way they usually do to you, which is to say, the general opinion seems to be that my comment was unwarranted, unnecessary, and unlikely to bring anything good into anyone's life. I've been pondering an apology, but I'd rather wait until I can really and seriously mean it before doing so - a big part of me thinks what I said to Tort was cruel, and a smaller part still thinks it was funny. If at some point I reach a consensus as to its cruelty, which is the direction I'm heading, I'll post an apology.

But keeping on trying to explain to you that your disparagement doesn't really seem to be working - as I don't think mine did, either - doesn't seem to be working itself, so I'm not sure whether it's worth it to talk to you anymore...

Sincerely,
Andrew