Tupac and ICP

[SineSwiper]

Still, the absurdities just go well with the style of music and deeper messages. Make I just like how fucked up it is, sorta like how I like ICP (one of the few rap groups I can stand to listen to) because they are goofy and funny.

[Lox]

It's probably just personal style. I enjoy goofy, too, but only when the band is in on the joke. heh

[RentCavalier]

Still, the absurdities just go well with the style of music and deeper messages. Make I just like how fucked up it is, sorta like how I like ICP (one of the few rap groups I can stand to listen to) because they are goofy and funny.

ICP is a terrible rap group and you are a terrible person for liking them.

[Chris]

Still, the absurdities just go well with the style of music and deeper messages. Make I just like how fucked up it is, sorta like how I like ICP (one of the few rap groups I can stand to listen to) because they are goofy and funny.

ICP is a terrible rap group and you are a terrible person for liking them.

I'm with rent

[SineSwiper]

ICP is a terrible rap group and you are a terrible person for liking them.

Oh, come on. You can't help but laugh at songs like:

Jacob's Word ("trip a semi with your neck...")
Radio Stars
Nothing but a Bitch Thing (Eminem diss)
I Want My Shit
Explicit Warning

When they aren't doing funny songs, they usually focus on good messages, instead of bitches and hoes and Compton (like most rappers):

How Many Times
Pass Me By
Halls Of Illusions

(Some are pretty shitty videos, so I just listen to it without them.)

[Julius Seeker]

ICP tried to feed off of Eminem's explosive popularity by dissing him, but it backfired when Eminem totally buried them in about 4 lines.

As far as rap goes overall: Tupac reigns as rap's greatest legend in a similar way that Cobain was to Grunge and Elvis was to early Rock'N'Roll.

[SineSwiper]

Actually, no. Eminem ripped on them first. ICP produced a diss song for every diss Eminem did. I think it was fought for a couple of songs, but Em eventually gave up and shut up. EDIT: This is a good timeline.

And ICP isn't trying to be mega-popular. They could care less how much money they make, and they are perfectly happy with their small following of Juggalos (ICP fans). They donated most of the money for their videos and radio songs, back when they had that moment of mainstream popularity.

Also, what the fuck has Tupac done that millions of other rappers haven't already done?

[Julius Seeker]

For what reason would Eminem need to even bother with a group he already buried?

Also, what the fuck has Tupac done that millions of other rappers haven't already done?

Are you going to ask next what "the fuck" the Beatles did that millions of other bands haven't already done?

[SineSwiper]

Buried? Really?

Also, you didn't answer my question, so I'll type it vertically so that you can understand:

What
the
fuck
has
Tupac
done
that
millions
of
other
rappers
haven't
already
done?

[RentCavalier]

Buried? Really?

Also, you didn't answer my question, so I'll type it vertically so that you can understand:

What
the
fuck
has
Tupac
done
that
millions
of
other
rappers
haven't
already
done?

He did it first.

[Julius Seeker]

Buried? Really?

Also, you didn't answer my question, so I'll type it vertically so that you can understand:

What
the
fuck
has
Tupac
done
that
millions
of
other
rappers
haven't
already
done?

Your question is moronic. Tupac had a gigantic impact on 90's pop culture; that you somehow missed that baffles my mind. Even if you were too young (which I know you weren't, you're older than I am, and I was not too young) there are books and documentaries on Tupac. Just for starters: he started the most significant movement in the history of hip hop. He is an icon and a legend as well as the best selling hip hop artist of all time. I don't see how you think millions and millions of rappers have done what he did. That's like saying millions and millions of bands have done what the Beatles did; or do you feel that to be the case as well?

Just as there was only one Elvis, one John Lennon, one Kurt Cobain, there was only one Tupac Shakur.

[SineSwiper]

You still didn't answer my question. What made him different? His popularity? What was different in his style of music that others didn't do?

It's a genuine question, because I really don't know.

[Julius Seeker]

You still didn't answer my question. What made him different? His popularity? What was different in his style of music that others didn't do?

It's a genuine question, because I really don't know.

I answered your question. You asked "What the fuck has Tupac done that millions of other rappers haven't already done?" If you can't understand that it is impossible for more than one hip hop artist, let alone millions, to have had a gigantic impact on 90's pop culture, started the most significant movement in hip hop history, and is the #1 best selling hip hop artists in history, then I really don't see how you're capable of understanding anything at all. Especially when you somehow also lack the capabilities to use google, youtube, read books, or watch documentaries on something which is common knowledge in 90's pop culture.


For the record, I was easily able look up and see how ICP fell permanently off the charts after Eminem buried them.

[Kupek]

Seeker, you actually didn't explain his influence, you just restated it. Personally, I'm not aware of him being a big influence. Popular, yes, influence, no.

Sine was looking for an analysis, not just a statement.

[Julius Seeker]

Seeker, you actually didn't explain his influence, you just restated it. Personally, I'm not aware of him being a big influence. Popular, yes, influence, no.

Sine was looking for an analysis, not just a statement.

I wasn't asked to explain analyze his influence. This is what was asked:

what the fuck has Tupac done that millions of other rappers haven't already done?

[Kupek]

What made him different? His popularity? What was different in his style of music that others didn't do?

[Julius Seeker]

He added that in later; that's a completely new question. That's not the question that was asked that he is accusing me of not answering.

[Lox]

He added that in later; that's a completely new question. That's not the question that was asked that he is accusing me of not answering.

So just answer the new one already!!! Freaking people derailing my Metallica thread! Blargh!

[Kupek]

Re: Seeker's response that's in its own thread

Copy-and-paste from Wikipedia? Discourse here has hit a new low. The point of asking someone familiar with Tupac's work is to get a synthesis, not a regurgitation of existing material.

[Julius Seeker]

Re: Seeker's response that's in its own thread

Copy-and-paste from Wikipedia? Discourse here has hit a new low. The point of asking someone familiar with Tupac's work is to get a synthesis, not a regurgitation of existing material.

I am not interested in educating Sine on Tupac, he can do that easily himself if he knows how to use any of the common tools available on the Internet. I was interested in pointing out how ridiculous his original question was. Even my grandparents, who know nothing about rap, know that Tupac was a very significant figure in music history.

[Kupek]

Uh, isn't that the point of discussing something? The "common tools" on the internet provide a wealth of information, but they don't provide analysis, nor do they synthesize that information and provide context. It's a reasonable question.

An example: there is a wealth of information on Metallica. But that information might not make clear that Metallica basically saved metal from itself in the '80s. Glam metal became the most popular music in the land, but Metallica was the only band that continued the progression of hard rock/metal that goes back to Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. (Possible nitpicks: the likes of Iron Maiden and Megadeath, but I don't think they ever achieved the sophistication of Metallica.) When glam metal eventually imploded, Metallica was still there. They influenced the metal bands in the '90s and 2000s, like System of a Down, Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park.

That's the difference between vomiting words into the text box and actually explaining something. What I said above about Metallica isn't factual: it's my own interpretation of what happened.

[Julius Seeker]

Uh, isn't that the point of discussing something? The "common tools" on the internet provide a wealth of information, but they don't provide analysis, nor do they synthesize that information and provide context. It's a reasonable question.

You're making the incorrect assumption that I am actually interested in discussing hip hop with Sine.

[Kupek]

Then stop posting; don't spam the forums with Wikipedia articles.

[Julius Seeker]

Then stop posting; don't spam the forums with Wikipedia articles.

I don't really appreciate your 'holier than thou' attitude, particularly when it was you who chose to be difficult after a point was clearly established.

I didn't intend to post anymore. You seemed to require further explanation as to the actual post I was concerned about replying to. I personally felt my explanation was more than sufficient before you even began posting in this thread.

[Kupek]

That the point was not clearly established was Sine's point, and mine.

But we've now crossed the usefulness threshold: we're talking more about ourselves than the topic.

[Zeus]

But we've now crossed the usefulness threshold: we're talking more about ourselves than the topic.

That's how 90% of the replies here work :-) It's amazing how many more replies an argument gets than a topic

[Julius Seeker]

That the point was not clearly established was Sine's point, and mine.

The point was to establish that Tupac did something that other a lot of rappers didn't do; I did that in as obvious a form possible. Going into detail isn't really required, nor is it in my current interests to do so. I also doubt either you or Sine have any interest in Tupac, if you did, there are plenty of resources for you to do your own research.

If my doubts are unfounded and indeed you REALLY are interested in hearing my take on Tupac, this board has a search function, I know I have made many posts about him in the past. It is likely I will write soething in the future, possibly even this weekend, if indeed you REALLY are interested. Right now I am just not interested in putting my head into it.

Tupac was an amazing person, and had an amazing impact on a very large number of people and performers. He is someone who I equate to Kurt Cobain, John Lennon, and Elvis.

But we've now crossed the usefulness threshold: we're talking more about ourselves than the topic.

Agreed.

[SineSwiper]

That's how 90% of Seeker's replies here work :-) It's amazing how many more replies an argument gets than a topic

FTFY.

And for the record, what Kupek said. I wanted to know why this guy was so popular. What made his music different than other rappers?

[Eric]

That's how 90% of Seeker's replies here work :-) It's amazing how many more replies an argument gets than a topic

FTFY.

And for the record, what Kupek said. I wanted to know why this guy was so popular. What made his music different than other rappers?

I'll take a stab at this, though like Seeker I'll probably wish I hadn't.

While Pac wasn't the first artist to do the Gangsta rap thing, those credits go towards NWA/Easy-Z, and those other cats. Pac was the first one who's music gave you a real hard look at the life of poor African Americans(or otherwise) in ghettos and projects, and how they live their lives, how they grow up, what they go through, etc. His style criticized social norms, how people are allowed to be poor and suffer in this rich country, how people feel trapped, lack of help for these said people, etc etc. Combined with what was the popular gangsta rap style at the time, he didn't mince words, and he because extremely popular(Or unpopular in the eyes of the police and government) because of it.

2Pac's best and most memorable songs are the ones that talk about his life growing up, and expressing his feelings and the feelings of those around him who are had to deal with whatever society threw at them. The style in itself made him something of an African American leader that spoke for those that couldn't, obviously more towards Malcolm X as opposed to MLK. You can imagine that artists who were young at this time listened to what Pac had to say and incorporated that into their own styles of rap. It's not out of question for most rappers who grew up during Pac's era to mention him as such an artist they looked up to, and were influenced by.

Pac WAS the best rapper at the time he was releasing music up until his death. I know some New York cats would like to say Biggie was the best, and it's true Biggie also had a similar style to Pac, but, and this is just in my opinion, Pac was the better lyricist and he always had a deeper message in his music then Biggie did.

On the sales side of things, Pac really brought rap into the Mainstream like no other, his style and music was widely accepted and bought by all people of different backgrounds. Before Pac hip-hop in general was mainly a thing you'd find in urban areas, after Pac, it kinda opened up the flood gates and everyone started loving Hip-Hop. It was cool to listen to hip-hop, sing the lyrics in the streets, wears your clothes like the guy, etc etc. Hip-hop ALWAYS had it's own style(I don't know how many of you remember the giant gold medallions), but after Pac was when it really just kinda blew up, and was accepted.

[SineSwiper]

I dunno. It seems like rappers have been talking about how it's rough in Compton for years before Tupac. I mean, that's part of the flavor of gangsta rap, when they aren't talking about pimping hoes and shooting down niggas.

I just think that rappers like Eminem, ICP, and Wyclef had better messages in their own areas: Eminem about racism as a white guy, ICP about society/good/evil (and how bigots/wifebeaters should die), Wyclef about how all of the gangsta rappers are talking total bullshit about how great it is to be one.

Maybe I feel that in rap the message is really important, but in a genre where the lyrics are the ONLY thing that matters, it's important to stray from the norm. Hell, the message doesn't have to be good and fluffy. Take ICPs -other- songs, for example, or Beastie Boys or Cypress Hill.

Not to mention better background music. I'd much rather listen to any Beastie Boys song than, say, Gin and Juice, which sounds like somebody strangled a 1980's synthesizer made from cat wailings.

[RentCavalier]

Jesus Christ, you are seriously implying there is any sort of depth or meaning behind ICP?

Have you ever MET a fan of ICP? Once you realize who LISTENS to that garbage, you'll start to understand just how shitty they are.

[bovine]

yeah! let's derail this thread and talk about awesome rappers. I enjoyed my sort of non-mainstream rap beginnings with handsome boy modelling school, jurassic 5, deltron 3030, and Dr.Octagon. Now I've sort of started leaning toward a more mainstream-friendly set of rappers in Kanye West and the ultra-nerdy and loveable Lupe Fiasco. He raps about street fighter! Apparently finding it hard to play as blanka as apposed to ken and ryu. Also he hates zangief and reads manga.

[SineSwiper]

Jesus Christ, you are seriously implying there is any sort of depth or meaning behind ICP?

Have you ever MET a fan of ICP? Once you realize who LISTENS to that garbage, you'll start to understand just how shitty they are.

Hmmm...you really sound like the partial party. Yes, I'm not just implying that there is depth and meaning behind ICP, but I'm fucking saying it. And yes, I've met fans of ICP. My best friend is an avid Juggalo, and he was the one who turned me on to this group.

Maybe if you took your head out of your ass once in a while, we can have an intelligent conversation about it. Seriously, for somebody who talks about being a writer and all of that, you really sound like a 8-year-old sometimes.

...Dr.Octagon.

I was at this large rave weekend thing, and I remember something talking to a fan about this guy, and a lyric really stuck in my head:

I want a Kotex with whipped cream!

It was so absurd, but it really fit together nicely, sorta like how Beck can say absolutely nothing meaningful, but it fits the song. Admittedly, I haven't really explored the guy's music, but it's just something that I have in the back of my mind every time I think of the guy.