Naruto 132

[SineSwiper]

Weird...why am I the first to start this one? Anyway, very impressive. Why didn't Naruto pull that one out of his ass when he was getting his ass handed to him by Kimimaru? Oooooh, it's a epic battle, so it's only supposed to be used at the right time. Blah.

I also don't understand why Sasuke can't just copy Naruto's Rasengen if he has a limited time with Choridi. I guess I misunderstand how the Sharingin is used.

[Don]

Since they're both class A attacks I'd assume it makes more sense to use the attack you're more familiar with rather than copying the other one for the sake of copying it.

Besides Naruto isn't exactly a consistent world.

[Eric]

Sasuke doesn't have the stamina to use the Rasengen.

Naruto doesn't have the Uchiha reflexes or quick eye(Sharingin) to use the Choridi.

[SineSwiper]

I still can't believe that Naruto still has to use that damn clone to pull it off. I kinda figured he found a way to do it without his clone.

[Zeus]

Man, in 3 days he learned a technique that took a Hokage what, 3 years to master? Give the 12 year old a break! If he needs a clone to help him do it, so be it.

And if you remember when Jiraya was training him, the Nine-Tails chakra isn't something that he can just use at will.....at least not yet. It's kind of a last resort for him. Against Kimimaru he was using his favourite and never really got too deep into the battle before Rock got involved, so he never had to use his last resort. Against Sasuke, he was up against not only a strong opponent, but he was struggling emotionally as well, which allowed Sasuke to beat him up pretty good (he barely avoided getting the Chidori in the heart), so it was a little different. Plus, as they spent half the ep telling you, he's a lot more emotionally attached, which helped him...

Just enjoy the show, dammit.

[M'k'n'zy]

Actually Rasengan is one of those techniques that cant be copied with the Sharingan because it requires specilized training.

I am finally just about to start watching the episodes. God I HATE being on dialup.

[Don]

I think anything that really matters can't be copied unless they say otherwise or if it's convenient.

Oh yeah and a guy who is said to be 'pretty medicore' (actually I think more like last of the class, but we'll be generous here) learned in 3 days what a genius took 3 years to learn. Real consistency here.

[SineSwiper]

Actually Rasengan is one of those techniques that cant be copied with the Sharingan because it requires specilized training.

You mean like Guy's speed and the Chidori?

[M'k'n'zy]

Exactly. There are some techniques that unless you have the training for them you just cant use. For example, Sasuke was able to atain Lee's speed, but he didnt have the stamina built up so he wasnt able to easily maintain it.

[SineSwiper]

Actually, I was using that the defeat your argument. Guy's speed took years to master, yet he was able to learn it in less than a month.

[M'k'n'zy]

To learn it yes, to be able to completly use it properly, no. Also you have to realize they spent that month doing absoutly NOTHING but training his speed. If he progressed at a normal pace, then it wouldn't have made much diffrence.

When it comes to Ninjutsu/Genjutsu, basicly if the technique doesnt use hand seals, or if it is a bloodline limit it can't be copied. Can it be learned faster using the Sharingan? Yes, but it cant be out and out copied. Then again, bloodline limits cant be copied period.

On a side note, they really cleaned up the scene where Sasuke hit Naruto with the Chidori. In the manga you actually see him standing there with his fist pushed out of Naruto's back.

[SineSwiper]

On a side note, they really cleaned up the scene where Sasuke hit Naruto with the Chidori. In the manga you actually see him standing there with his fist pushed out of Naruto's back.

Probably better that way. With the Chidori coming out of his back, you definately understand that Naruto was stabbed, nearly fatally, with it. Animating his fist going through the back seems to be overdoing it. Plus, it kinda shows the Chidori more like a dagger. You don't go through to the other side if you were stabbing with a real dagger.

[M'k'n'zy]

Well another thing is that Naruto DIDNT make Sasuke miss in the manga.....not like that at least. Sasuke missed, but not by nearly that much.

[SineSwiper]

I dunno. I thought the wound and location was pretty bad. Not at the heart or lungs, but close.

You don't happen to have the frames for the manga shots, do you? How could have Sasuke missed? Just going too fast? Wait, he was holding him. He had a very clear shot.

[Don]

Actually, I was using that the defeat your argument. Guy's speed took years to master, yet he was able to learn it in less than a month.

That's where the 'he was a genius so he was able to do it' come in. It even works if you're not a genius (Naruto).

Like I said if you're lookin for consistency, this isn't the place to look for it.

[Zeus]

I think anything that really matters can't be copied unless they say otherwise or if it's convenient.

Oh yeah and a guy who is said to be 'pretty medicore' (actually I think more like last of the class, but we'll be generous here) learned in 3 days what a genius took 3 years to learn. Real consistency here.

Took the genius 3 years to develop and master the technique, not to learn it

You really have this hate on for Naruto 'cause it's not purely rule/mathematically based, don't you? The world in Naruto is all about guidelines, not hard rules. That's how you can have a Chuunin fights a Jounin and maybe even win. It's not set in stone. If you're the strongest, you just don't win every time. That's what makes a fantasy world dull IMO

[Zeus]

Like I said if you're lookin for consistency, this isn't the place to look for it.

There's tons of consistency, just not flat-out rule adherence, which is what you're lookin' for. Look at how easily Big Daddy Mac (M'k'n'zy) is explaining what happens within the world's rules/guidelines. Yes, the main characters seem to have these special abilities that no one else has, but that's quite normal in basically every TV show/movie/game you've ever experienced.

The difference is, what happens in Naruto isn't pre-determined, but it isn't done for convenience either. What happened with Naruto and his insane-healing of the wound Sasuke gave him has been a part of the storyline from the very beginning and has come up a few times in other arcs (Haku/Zabuze, Gaara, Jiraya training) in different forms and levels and is something you know is coming. But it's not like he's the king of everything. Remember, he very nearly died against Kabuto and stood no chance against either Kimimaru and Orochimaru. His usage of the Rasengen is somewhat half-assed. He figured out a way to do it through 3 days of sheer determination and a little creatively. But it's not like he's mastered it like Jiraya or The Fourth (who developed it) did. Those guys could just pop it out no prob. He has to make a clone and then work on it to get it. And I'm sure it's not nearly as strong as the ones by a Saanin or a Hokage are either. That's logical and makes sense.

That's what makes the show good. It stays within its rules but it's not pre-determined.

[Don]

I posted something but it got eaten, so I'll be brief.

There are 2 guys in the world that knows how to use that technique. A bottom of the class can do a pretty good imitation within 3 days.

Rock Lee is a genius who works harder than anyone else and he only works on his physical ability for presumably the better part of his life. Sasuke takes a month to match it. And then Naruto who is a certified non-genius can learn a technique that is almost as good as Sasuke's strongest technique in even less time. And this is supposed to make sense?

To quote from HXH, if A's ability if 100-150 and B's ability is 80-120, then B can beat A if the circumstances are in B's favor. However, in Naruto's case it's like A's ability would be 1000-2000 and B's ability would be 50-100 and in this case winning is not possible unless A just lost 2 limbs from an earlier fight.

I don't know of any world that deals predominantly with fighting that ever succeeded with a tight ruleset without breaking its own rules at the end. This doesn't give them the right to suck, though. If you can't explain it, 'train harder' from DBZ or 'justice won't lose' from Saint Seiya has been around since forever as perfectly acceptable explanations for superhuman feats.

[M'k'n'zy]

First of all, Lee is only REALLY a genius in his ability to open the gates. When he started as a ninja, he had no ninjutsu ability, no genjutsu ability and his taijutsu ability was below average. Through working insanely hard for a year he was ablet o acquire and master his speed, as well as develop his taijutsu skills.

Sasuke is a genius who has the added benifit of having the Sharingan. He copied Lee's taijutsu style, but that it all. Likewise Sasuke had to work hard to attain the speed that Lee had. But if the two of them were to race at that speed, Lee would win, because Sasuke doesnt have the stamina to maintain it. Think about it, durring Sasuke's fight with Garra, after using that speed for about 5 minutes, he was already out of breath. Lee used it for longer than that against Garra and was perfectly fine.

The only thing that Naruto has REALLY ever had going for him is his INSANE ammount of stamina which allows him to train for longer than most, even in techniques that use a high ammount of Chakra. Granted he has the nine-tails thing going for him, but he learned the Rasengan by finding a side path around it. He defidently does NOT have mastery of the technique in any way shape or form. Jiriya or Yondaimae could do one with each hand at the same time if they wanted to. Naruto cant even form it properly without a clone.

Could Sasuke learn Rasengan? Probally yes. Could he just copy it with his Sharingan? No. Would Sasuke have an easier time of learning it after watching with the sharingan? Probally.

[Zeus]

I don't know of any world that deals predominantly with fighting that ever succeeded with a tight ruleset without breaking its own rules at the end. This doesn't give them the right to suck, though. If you can't explain it, 'train harder' from DBZ or 'justice won't lose' from Saint Seiya has been around since forever as perfectly acceptable explanations for superhuman feats.

Just curious, did you read my post?

The main thing I was trying to say before is that there ISN'T a tight ruleset. There's no real ruleset other than the fact that ninjas have chakra and others don't. They have guidelines which stops the show from just making stuff up.

This isn't DBZ, it's not even trying to copy it (thank God). The creator admits he was inspired by DBZ, but this world is much different. And the training isn't without its limitations either. Have you noticed Jiraya teach Naruto seals or Kakashi teaching Naruto the Chidori (BTW, Kakashi actually said Naruto can't learn it when Naruto saw Sasuke use it)? No, because he's just not capable, at least not yet for the seals. Even he, with his ridiculous inner chakra, is unable to learn certain things because he's just not inately able to.

So, even the "train harder" and "justice won't lose" (BTW, have you noticed that even though the Third sacrificed himself to get him, Orochimaru is basically back to normal now?) ideas aren't all-encompassing and solve all discrepancies in Naruto. They too have to fit within the guidelines (I won't call them rules 'cause that implies something else) that has been created for the world.

Naturally, they have expanded on what's been "allowed" within these guidelines, but they have yet to go outside them. Everything fits within the world that has been created, it's completely consistent.

[Eric]

Sasuke didn't master Lee's taijutsu, not by a long shot.

You all keep forgetting Sasuke is an Uchiha, their bloodline uses the Sharingin. This REQUIRES them to have catlike reflexes if they're to copy and use other people's jutsu's against them.

Sasuke is a genius. He did speed training for an entire month. He did the speed training to increase his reflexes so that he could use the chidori, which requires great speed, as well as concentration of chakra. Without those eyes he couldn't even use the Chidori.

The world if pretty consistant, if you want me to break things down for you and explain things, by all means ask. If you feel something is in consistant, M'k'nzy or I can easily correct this. ;p

[M'k'n'zy]

The world if pretty consistant, if you want me to break things down for you and explain things, by all means ask. If you feel something is in consistant, M'k'nzy or I can easily correct this. ;p

You know, the fact that you can say that and I can agree to it is somewhat..disturbing ^_^ Mabye we are too into this manga for our own good ^_^

[Don]

I honestly can't tell if it's authors who are stupid and the fans can't figure out the authors are dumber than they are and blindly believe anything they're given, or if fans are actually dumber than the authors which is why they believe what they're told.

I don't know if you've seen the character info sheets from the offical manga book but the little guys in Naruto regularly overcome people who have near double their stats in every possible category, and the way stats are measured is like the ratio between Orochimaru's nijitsu ability and say, Sakura, would be 2 to 1.

[M'k'n'zy]

And that is why none of the main character have ever actually beaten any of the major bad guys in the series. Yes Orochimaru, Itachi, Kisame, all of these people are far stronger than the main characters, and none of the main characters have even made these people get serious. Lets look at some of the fights of the main characters vs. the truly strong characters in this show.

Naruto and Sasuke vs. Orochimaru in teh forest (chunin exam) - a very VERY one sided fight. They never even force Orochimaru to get serious. Naruto ends up sealed, and Sasuke more or less just gets his ass kicked.

Naruto vs. Neji - Naruto wins this mostly because Neji underestimates him and because of the ability to call on the Kuubi. If Neji had taken the fight seriously then it would have been a one sided win for him.

Sasuke vs. Garra - very one sided on Garra's part. Granted Sasuke gets a good hit in, but as soon as Garra starts getting serious then Sasuke is overwhelmed.

Naruto vs. Garra - Once again at first Garra wasn't taking Naruto seriously, refusing to accept that someone like Naruto could be strong. This allows Naruto to get a lot of damage in draining Garra's chakra. Once Garra gets truly serious, Naruto has to spend almost everything he has to summon Gamabunta and fight back. Again, if Garra had taken the fight seriously from the start, Naruto wouldn't have had a chance.

Naruto vs. Kabuto - this one was a win for Kabuto, but the only reason Naruto was able to do even as much as he did was because Kabuto had already been weakened by fighting Tsunade beforehand. Also the ever present underestimation of Naruto's abilitys.

Chouji vs. Jiroubu - Choji only wins this fight by using a medicine which pretty much turns his entire life essence into chakra.

Neji vs. Kidomaru - Their levels arent nearly as far apart, but again, Neji had to more or less sacrifice himself in order to get the win.

Garra vs. Kimimaru - Garra loses this fight. If not for the disease ravaging Kimimaru Garra would be very dead right now.

So basicly any battle of the weak vs the truly strong has ended up with either a loss, a win with HEAVY sacrifices (usually ones own life) or a win because the weaker party wasnt taken seriously by the stronger party.

[Don]

Except all these improbable wins that probably involved sacrificing themselves have yet to put anyone who's important out of the action permanently. And you said 'get serious' a lot, which in Naruto world basically means some kind of transformation-like thing (in particular all the Sound ninjas when they're chasing them) that magically wipes all previous damage and starts the battle over with new and improved stats. Everytime Naruto uses 9-tails it is also a battle resetter. Sure it may say he's hurt but there's no doubt all of his stats went up instead of down from damage. When you can 'get serious' with no obvious drawbacks it begs the question why doesn't anyone 'get serious' from the get-go. Yes the Sound ninjas mention going level 2 leads to some kind of undesirable side effect but it's obviously not worse than dying.

In HXH Killua has a very good quote regarding the kind of fight you described. "In a fight there is no certain winners or losers. However we cannot fight a battle that has a 1% chance of winning and expect to win."cannot be considered a meaningful one." If you evaluate the character strengths most of those fights you have would have the winning side at significantly less than 1% chance of winning, and yet they win without fail. While it is obviously necessary to pull a few miracles here and there, this can't be the norm when you're in a world that is supposed to have fixed capabilities. Most fights HXH gets into the main characters have significant greater than 1% chance to win. In fact many of them their chance of winning is >50%. Now they know stuff you as the reader do not, which is fine, but their winning strategy is not focused around 'get serious' or hoping a miracle will happen.

Will write a bit more when I get home.

[Eric]

Get serious means to use all your abilities, your trump cards, and basically a whole lotta your chakra. In the cases where people didn't get serious, they held back because they were attempting to conserver energy if they needed it later.

Yes, the Nine-tails = battle resetter, but that's for Naruto only, anybody else doesn't magically become healed. The Nine-tails protects Naruto, because if Naruto dies, so does the fox. It's two totally seperate Chakras, if the Nine tails goes to zero, then he's wiped, because his initial chakra is gone, these is no more power boast after it's cut off, which was illustrated when Orochimaru sealed his chakra in the forest.

I mean Don your logic is even more black and white then most. Most powerful = instant win. What the hell? You don't take other variables into consideration. Mentally & Physically, these all come into play.

Hell you think Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas because Buster was the better Boxer? Mike had some drama going on in his life.

[SineSwiper]

To quote from HXH, if A's ability if 100-150 and B's ability is 80-120, then B can beat A if the circumstances are in B's favor. However, in Naruto's case it's like A's ability would be 1000-2000 and B's ability would be 50-100 and in this case winning is not possible unless A just lost 2 limbs from an earlier fight.

Jesus, Don. You completely missing the point. I think we had this conversation a while back about the fact that Naruto, while it has some roots in DBZ, is not DBZ. There is no power numbers or A > B, or any shit like that. Quit trying to put it into a goddamn math formula! Outsmarting the enemy or catching him on his overconfidence is just as important as their "power level".

Besides, there is still some level of equalization between the opponents. Neji and Choji both defeated their higher level opponents, but only at the cost of their lives. Shikamaru and Kiba almost got their asses handed to them, if it wasn't for some extra help. (Though, Tayuya was just strategically outclassed to her weaknesses vs Temari.) Rock Lee, Naruto, and Garaa (the fucking God of Sand) were truly outclassed with Kimimaru, and were damn lucky for his condition to predict the outcome. (When you think about how he was bedridden with the heart problem until this final battle, you realize it wasn't all that "convenient" that he happen to die when he was way overdoing himself on Level 2.)

And now, you have Naruto and Sasuke, both Genjin, both with hidden powers of extreme potential. Everything so far seems like they are matching the powers pretty well, or at least being realistic with them.

[Zeus]

It's like banging your head against a wall and expecting to clear up your headache. There's four of us with basically the exact same thinking but he's trying to force it into a pre-conceived notion of how an anime world works. That's why I've actually gotten into Naruto and not other anime, it's because it doesn't work like other worlds, where it's all essentially mathematically based (ie. 5 is always greater than 3, thus Kabuto is always greater than Naruto). Like theoretical physics, there are other variables that come into play here and can actually cause a situation where 3 can, in fact, exceed 5, if everything is just right.

Don, I just hope you start seeing it for what it is and not compare it to other anime. It is unique in the sense that it's the first anime show that I've seen where the "rules" are more guidelines than hard rules. If you start looking at it that way and stop comparing it to other worlds in other anime, you'll realize that it's quite consistent in and of itself and you'll really start enjoying it for what it is.

[Don]

I think you need to read my HXH example. 5 will never lose to a 3 if that's the ability both people possess when the battle starts. That's why HXH characters are given a range that's based on all the other intangibles. A person whose ability ranges from 10-15 is undeniably stronger than someone whose ability ranges from 8-12 but victory is not assured. On the other hand a 10-15 person versus a 5-9 person will NEVER lose. The story doesn't actually rank the characters based on a power level it is pretty obvious that the main characters, even though they obviously never lose a battle that matters, have never won a battle where their max power < enemy's minimum power. As Killua would say, those are the battles that you've <1% chance of winning but just because the stars may align the right way doesn't mean this is a battle you should consider to have any chance of winning. Compare to that, characters in Naruto happily go into battles where it sure looks like the upper limit of the good guy's ability isn't anywhere close to the bad guy's minimum ability. It's either that or all the bad guys are really bad at estimating their power relative to the good guys. I guess this is like how people can 'underestimate' the power of Mega Man X who only has 8 save-the-worlds under his belt.

And I keep on hear like 'well they win because soandso gave up everything.' Well, in these fights the enemy is usually dead (or at least appears to be), so that surely is no excuse for how the good guys won because the other side gave up at least as much as everything (dead).

[SineSwiper]

One, you're using numbers again. STOP DOING THAT!!!

Two, you're completely missing the point. Again.

Three, you're not citing examples where Naruto is fighting somebody waaay too far from his ability. If you're going to argue this point over and over again, while we give you evidence otherwise (and citing examples), I would expect some evidence on the other side.