Star Wars SPOILER thread, various discussion

[Flip]

I must start out and say i thought the 'change' was rather sudden and not done that well... Anakin goes directly from reluctantly joining the dark side (for the sole purpose to save Padme) to killing Jedi and kids? WTF? A little more progression was needed before Anakin would kill kids, IMO.

"What have i done, i killed Windu, i suppose i'll join you"
"First assignment, kill kids!"
"OK!"

While i did like the movie, it felt to me that this chapter alone could have been 2 or 3 movies, it was very hurried, switching from scene to scene to scene to scene all over the galaxy. Almost half of the first movie was about liberating one planet, yet with so much going on, they couldnt hardly devote 15 minutes to the Wookie war.

More about the turn, i kind of have a problem with Padme being the sole reason for Anakin going to the dark side. The love scenes were done so badly in the second movie and so little time was shown of them together alone (Anakin always on missions) that i didnt feel like they even were in love. As an audience member, I didnt feel the connection between them at all, which is the fault of the script i suppose. I'm a gushy guy, and enjoy love scenes and the love between two characters, so this is a lot coming from me when i say i didnt feel their love. In fact, i would go so far as saying that had i not known the Star Wars story, i would have been awfully damn surprised by Anakin's turn in general. Disregarding the last 3 episodes and only taking in what you can see from the first 2, the turn seems out of character for him. Yes, he had his moments in the early movies, but give me a break, it isnt like Padme WAS dead. She had been in rediculous danger before in the movies, and Anakin even feared for her life when she fell out of that ship in the second movie, but he didnt flip out and suddenly turn evil, he kept to the plan and followed his lessons. I honestly thought Padme's death was going to be the reason for the turn him, not a dream and a promise of the impossible...

A lot of stuff from the cartoon shorts were not addressed, which was a shame. I was looking forward to seeing a movie equivalent of that big stomping ship that Windu fought in the shorts. Grieves kicked major ass in the shorts and was a mega pussy in this movie. I also thought the Jedi that Yoda saved in the shorts would play a role in this movie, but they didnt, oh well.

Any thoughts, on the change in particular? What did i miss that made you like it? I know Anakin isnt a character that i created, but i thought i knew him well enough to know that he wouldnt change that easily. Hell, he saved Obi Wan's life 9 or 10 times, is taught by him for how many years that we didnt get to see, yet the Chancellor had the power to change Anakin during the few short stops on that planet and a few one on one meetings? The first 2 movies did well to plant the doubt and i think this one started off well with him killing Dooku, but the Windu killing and the purpose for the switch and everything suddenly just happening was odd. They would have done bettert to make it a confused circumstance, maybe Anakin thinks Obi Wan slept with Padme, or that Obi killed her, or that Anakin was going to be exiled for being found out about his marriage, or SOMETHING. Any of those ideas are better for a sudden hating of the Jedi than what they did. The Jedi were going to take control of the Republic, bah, thats laughable and he should have known it, being exiled would have made more sense.

Anyways, entertaining, glad they brought it up to A New Hope, and glad the circle is complete.

[Ishamael]

I must start out and say i thought the 'change' was rather sudden and not done that well... Anakin goes directly from reluctantly joining the dark side (for the sole purpose to save Padme) to killing Jedi and kids? WTF? A little more progression was needed before Anakin would kill kids, IMO.

"What have i done, i killed Windu, i suppose i'll join you"
"First assignment, kill kids!"
"OK!"

I thought it was a tad awkward the first time I saw it too. But the second time, it didn't bother me too much. I payed much more attention to the build up and I got it. He was literally willing to do anything to save his wife. I got it.

While i did like the movie, it felt to me that this chapter alone could have been 2 or 3 movies, it was very hurried, switching from scene to scene to scene to scene all over the galaxy. Almost half of the first movie was about liberating one planet, yet with so much going on, they couldnt hardly devote 15 minutes to the Wookie war.

Well, it's a testament to the power of the movie that 2.5 hours still felt rushed. I just wished this kind of pacing was in place for movies 1 and 2. *sigh*

Also the whole Wookie thing didn't bother me, but a suprising amount of people were ticked that the Wookies didn't get more screentime. I didn't realize there were this many Wookieheads out there.

More about the turn, i kind of have a problem with Padme being the sole reason for Anakin going to the dark side. The love scenes were done so badly in the second movie and so little time was shown of them together alone (Anakin always on missions) that i didnt feel like they even were in love. As an audience member, I didnt feel the connection between them at all, which is the fault of the script i suppose. I'm a gushy guy, and enjoy love scenes and the love between two characters, so this is a lot coming from me when i say i didnt feel their love. In fact, i would go so far as saying that had i not known the Star Wars story, i would have been awfully damn surprised by Anakin's turn in general. Disregarding the last 3 episodes and only taking in what you can see from the first 2, the turn seems out of character for him. Yes, he had his moments in the early movies, but give me a break, it isnt like Padme WAS dead. She had been in rediculous danger before in the movies, and Anakin even feared for her life when she fell out of that ship in the second movie, but he didnt flip out and suddenly turn evil, he kept to the plan and followed his lessons. I honestly thought Padme's death was going to be the reason for the turn him, not a dream and a promise of the impossible...

A dream? It wasn't a dream. It was a premonition. Remember, Jedi (or rather, all Force capable beings) can see into the future. He saw his wife dying. It was going to happen. In fact, it did happen. Hardly a simple dream.

He saw a way of saving her and he took that chance. In the meantime, he thought of Palpatine as a friendly old man who'd looked out for his interests ever since he was the little kid participating in pod races in the first movie. He was a good guy. I don't even think Anakin even saw it as turning evil. It was just another way of looking at things. To quote the great Ian McDirmand, "Good is just a point of view".

A lot of stuff from the cartoon shorts were not addressed, which was a shame. I was looking forward to seeing a movie equivalent of that big stomping ship that Windu fought in the shorts. Grieves kicked major ass in the shorts and was a mega pussy in this movie. I also thought the Jedi that Yoda saved in the shorts would play a role in this movie, but they didnt, oh well.

Well, the Jedi he saved DID play a role. They were all slaughtered.

But yeah, the Grievous in the Clone Wars series was way cooler than the movie version. I thought Obi took him out way too easily. Oh well...

Any thoughts, on the change in particular? What did i miss that made you like it? I know Anakin isnt a character that i created, but i thought i knew him well enough to know that he wouldnt change that easily. Hell, he saved Obi Wan's life 9 or 10 times, is taught by him for how many years that we didnt get to see, yet the Chancellor had the power to change Anakin during the few short stops on that planet and a few one on one meetings? The first 2 movies did well to plant the doubt and i think this one started off well with him killing Dooku, but the Windu killing and the purpose for the switch and everything suddenly just happening was odd. They would have done bettert to make it a confused circumstance, maybe Anakin thinks Obi Wan slept with Padme, or that Obi killed her, or that Anakin was going to be exiled for being found out about his marriage, or SOMETHING. Any of those ideas are better for a sudden hating of the Jedi than what they did. The Jedi were going to take control of the Republic, bah, thats laughable and he should have known it, being exiled would have made more sense.

I again, I think him thinking the Dark Side is the only way to save his wife, plus Palpatine's constant brilliant suggestions ("A wise master learns ALL aspects of the force, not just one dogmatic viewpoint held by the Jedi", etc), his exclusion as a Master, his failure to save his mother, his ambition, etc all play a role. It wasn't *just* one thing, but the culmination of lots of things.

Anyways, entertaining, glad they brought it up to A New Hope, and glad the circle is complete.

Me too.

[Ishamael]

I thought the movie was great. Possibly number 3 all time behind Empire and A New Hope. It may even become number 2 after a few more viewings.

My favorite parts:

Any scene with Palpatine. This is one smooth snake in the grass. How couldn't you turn to the Dark Side after listening to this guy? Everything he said made perfect sense!

-"A true master learns ALL aspects of the Force, not just the narrow minded dogmatic view of the Jedi"

OK, that makes sense to me

- "The Jedi are plotting against me to take power for themselves

Again, strictly speaking, this was the truth.

-"But the Jedi are different. The Sith only seek power"
"And the Jedi do not?"

Touche.

And some other classics
-"Are are you threatening me, Master Jedi?"

-"If so powerful you are, why do you run?"
-"Good is just a point of view"


And outside of quotable quotes, there are some scenes that will go down in movie history

- Yoda and Palpatine fighting on the rising speaker podium in the Senatorial chamber
- the Obi-wan Anakin fight was beautiful. Lots of incricate movements and not just two guys standing in one place banging swords.
- Palpatine showing his true form twisting and turning in air attacking the 4 Jedi
- Anakin betraying Mace Windu
- Any scene with Anakin and Palpatine alone
- the chilling scene when Anakin steps into the room with the children and draws his lightsabre. Probably the most brutal scene in any Star Wars film.
- An amputated Anakin lying on the ground filled with hate, on fire with a sad regretful Obi Wan leaving him to die
- I also liked the scene where Dooku force grabs both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously and kicks Obi Wan to the corner. Very cool I thought.


Anyway, lots more. I've already seen the movie twice and loved it each time.

[Flip]

An amputated Anakin lying on the ground filled with hate, on fire with a sad regretful Obi Wan leaving him to die

This part was done really well. Pretty gruesome, but that was needed. At that point i felt he truly did hate Obi Wan, and it brought a little shiver to my skin.

[Imakeholesinu]

The thing that bothered me was that Padme died at the end of this film. This leaves a huge continuity error in RotJ because Leia remembers her mother, her real mother when asked about her in the Ewok village by Luke.

Also wtf is this nonsense about having Chewbacca on the wookie planet helping Yoda escape?

Anyone catch the YT-1300 landing on the planet when Anakin and Obi-Wan returned from crashing Grevious's ship? All the nerds behind me were like "THAT'S HAN'S SHIP!!! HAN SOLO!!!" If I hadn't been with Natsumi, I'd have strangled that fat fuck.

Did Grevious show up in the second movie at all? I don't remember him. Dooku died way too soon and it should have been Obi-Wan that took his ass down. Also I thought that the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin was a bit weak, it was almost like watching an episode of Dragon Ball Z. Power up for a half an hour, use one huge attack, and that's it. Kinda anti-climatic, insert sexual reference here.

Yoda could have whipped the shit out of the emperor too. The introduction of Organa was like really really short, and I had forgotten why Jimmy Smitts was in this movie at all until he sees the Youngling get killed.

The ending on Tatooine I liked a lot though, probably one of the most powerful scenes of the movie that wasn't hoakie or fucked up by Lucas. It made me feel a little nostaligic. Regardless, that's what I have to say on this. Time to go to work.

[Flip]

I think Leia is refferring to her adopted mother when she talks about her mother. Maybe the adopted mother died while Leia was young... who knows.

What also is funny, in the Empire Strikes Back when Luke leaves his training early to go save Han and company Obi Wan says, "That boy is our last hope." to which Yoday replies, "No, there is another." Duh, Obi Wan was there when the twins were born, how would he forget something like that?

[Torgo]

Also wtf is this nonsense about having Chewbacca on the wookie planet helping Yoda escape?

Some fan service, I guess. I enjoyed it.

Did Grevious show up in the second movie at all? I don't remember him. Dooku died way too soon and it should have been Obi-Wan that took his ass down.

Grievous was introduced in the Clone Wars series. There, he was an unstoppable badass. In RotS, he's just another one of Sidious' punks.

Also I thought that the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin was a bit weak, it was almost like watching an episode of Dragon Ball Z. Power up for a half an hour, use one huge attack, and that's it. Kinda anti-climatic, insert sexual reference here.

Weak? I thought it was the best one. I was too into the moment to really pay attention to the choreography, if that's what you were referring to. But still, it was better than say, Mace vs. Palpatine. Yoda knew that he only had a short window of time to dispose of Palpatine before reinforcements would arrive. He wasn't able to, hence his "I have failed" line.

What also is funny, in the Empire Strikes Back when Luke leaves his training early to go save Han and company Obi Wan says, "That boy is our last hope." to which Yoday replies, "No, there is another." Duh, Obi Wan was there when the twins were born, how would he forget something like that?

He probably didn't think that they would have much hope if Luke died. Sure, Leia has potential, but she has to go through all that training agian.

[Andrew, Killer Bee]

I think I may have cried during the scenes where Yoda was chilling out with the Wookies. It's obvious fan-service, but jesus I'm happy to be served.

I loved the Yoda/ Palpatine fight, and the fact that Yoda had to actually run away. I loved that Yoda was willing to bide his time - he knew that the Sith had won and that there was nothing to be done for it but wait. That's real ultimate power!!

I really didn't like the way they introduced the Jedi-turning-blue power - "Oh, by the way, guess who can talk to us from beyond the dead? Qui Gonn Jin! Now let's talk about something else!" What the hell?

"What have i done, i killed Windu, i suppose i'll join you"
"First assignment, kill kids!"
"OK!"

Bwahahaha!

I hated the use of the word "younglings". What the hell are younglings?

[Flip]

I hated the use of the word "younglings". What the hell are younglings?

Lol, i agree. Once was enough to make me cringe, by the third time i wanted to kill them myself, haha.

[Andrew, Killer Bee]

I actually found that excruciatingly, cloyingly cute jedi kid tolerable because I knew that Anakin was about to top him. I think that makes me a bad person.

I found the Anakin/ Obi Wan fight amazing, especially its dying moments. Watching Anakin lying there, seething with hate and impotent rage, and then <i>catching on fire</i>... man. And I would expect to cringe at a line like "You were my brother. I loved you", but it just about broke my heart.

I need to see the Clone Wars. I need to rewatch the original trilogy. Someone needs to remake episodes 1 and 2 so that they are actually watchable. Fuck it, but Episode 3 has gotten me excited about Star Wars all over again.

[Torgo]

Amusing little moments:

The wookies helping Yoda escape.
Yoda slipping away in Bail Organa's vette.
Anakin's stumpy body burning by the lava, and the subsequent scene where Padme asks Obi-Wan if he's all right.
And of course, Anaking getting the suit.
Seeing Jar Jar at the funeral and knowing that this whole turn of events is his fault.

[Zeus]

The thing that bothered me was that Padme died at the end of this film. This leaves a huge continuity error in RotJ because Leia remembers her mother, her real mother when asked about her in the Ewok village by Luke.

That's exactly what my wife and I were talking about. Of course, Leia IS strong in the Force (read the Zaun books) and could simply have felt her as a kid, but that's still weak at best.

What I thought was weak was the way the C3PO loses his memory. Organa just says "erase his memory". I mean, it's easy to see why (he could give away the children's location or spill the beans to Leia and he and R2D2 are going with Organa to Alderaan now, which is how they ended up with Leia in the the beginning of ANH), but I wanted a little more than that. But it also explains why Leia is with the rebellion at the beginning.

Another continuity error is how R2 has those little rockets in the new trilogy but can't move in the old one.

At the end of the day, it was quite a good film and a great tie in (we know why Yoda knows who Luke is right away and that he has a sister, why Leia is sending a message to Obi Wan in ANH, how she even knows he's there, why the aunt and uncle don't want Luke anywhere close to Obi Wan, why Obi Wan was hiding in Tatooine to begin with, etc). There are little things, but there is in ALL of the movies as well. I was watching Empire over the weekend and really, if you just analyze the acting and script as though you're watching it for the first time, you'll see lots of flaws too (man, the secondary actors are HORRIBLE and the tension really isn't there between Leia and Solo in the beginning, it's sort of forced; it's actually like that all the way through the original trilogy). But, other than the Portman-Christensen scenes (which were a better in ep3, but that's not saying much), there really isn't a drop in the quality of the old vs new trilogy.

[Kupek]

I saw it last night and I liked it. There were some painful scenes (most of the love scenes between Anakin and Padme; bad writing, bad acting, bad directing, I blame Lucas and we've covered this ground) but there were also some amazing ones.

Easily, I think the best scene is Obi Wan giving his "You were the chosen one, you were my brother, I loved you" speech. It could have been cheesy but it wasn't because Ewan McGregor is such a talented actor. It was dramatic, powerful and emotional - three things Lucas has generally not been able to achieve.

Ian McDiarmid also gave an excellent performance. "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?" was classic. Hayden Chriastensen wasn't as nearly as bad as in Episode II and did a decent job for the pivotal scenes.

The final fight between Anakin and Obi Wan was excellent. This is also the first time we've cut from one lightsaber fight to another: Anakin vs. Obi Wan to Yoda vs. Palpatine. Most of the rescue in the beginning was good as well.

For some complaints, I was bothered by the fan service - not just in Episode III, but throughout. Anakin makes C-3PO? The whole Jengo/Bobba Fett clone thing? Bobba Fett was an interesting aside in Empire and Jedi, but giving him this level of importance is silly. Chewbacca saves Yoda? Everything just tied together too neatly.

I was also bothered by the lack of sets. This bothered me in Episode II as well. The majority of their surroundings were CG, and it was obvious. I know why Luca didn't want to build sets: it's easier to do it in CG. But well constructed sets look better. Imagine what LotR would have looked like if Jackson had gone the same route. When people say how spectacular the special effects were in Episode II and III, I have to disagree. Yes, there were some amazing effects done for the movie, but that gets overwhelmed by the problems. Was it that cost prohibitive to hire a bunch of guys and put them in trooper suits? There's a scene in Episode II where Padme is speaking directly to one and I can tell her eyes aren't looking in the right place. In Episode III, I could tell that there was just a floating head on top of a CG body.

I agree with some of Flip's comments about how Anakin turned too fast, but not completely. I think a better approach to the Episode I - III would have been to basically eliminate all of Episode I. Then, make Episode I basically what Episode II was, make Episode II mostly the Clone War and show some of Anakin's dark leanings, then Episode III the fall from grace.

[Blotus]

-Every scene Anakin and Padme appeared in was wretched.
-Vader's first Frankenstein-like steps off the operating table followed by "nooooooooooo!" made me laugh almost through to the end of the movie.
-Too much CG. Did they build any sets for this movie or was it all bluescreen?

Anyway, those are my biggest gripes. Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything in Flip's first post.

[Ishamael]

Yes, Vader's NOOOOOO scene. I swear I tried my best not to laugh,but I just started cracking up the first time I heard that. I wasn't the only one laughing. I love the movie to death, but that scene just gets me everytime I see it. It was like I was watching a Simpson's parody. Easily the worst scene in the movie.

[Flip]

I think a better approach to the Episode I - III would have been to basically eliminate all of Episode I. Then, make Episode I basically what Episode II was, make Episode II mostly the Clone War and show some of Anakin's dark leanings, then Episode III the fall from grace.

This would have been genius.

[Nev]

The movie was made completely worthwhile by Natalie Portman's boobies-exposed scene halfway through the movie. Or was that an L.A. exclusive?

...

...

...

...

...

...

Aw, crap. I had a feeling you guys wouldn't fall for it. But you have to admit, that would have been pretty damn cool!

[Flip]

She already had her shirt needlessly ripped off by that liger (bred for its magic) thing in the 2nd movie to show off the amazing midriff. What more do you want?

[KluYa]

Easily the worst scene in the movie.

I don't know about that.


Anakin: You're so beautiful!

Padme: I'm beautiful because I'm so in love.

Anakin: No, you're beautiful because I'm so in love with you.

[Flip]

Lol, yeah, any love scene that has to use 'love' sixtyzillion times in the dialogue obviously is trying to make up for the lack of inherent love the characters have for each other.

It may as well have said, "We're in love, we promise! Because later i'm going to turn to the darkside due to this love that we so crappily couldnt get across to you in the ealier movies! LOVE!"

[Kupek]

I don't understand how no one pulled Lucas aside and just told him how bad that dialouge is.

[Nev]

I don't understand how no one pulled Lucas aside and just told him how bad that dialouge is.

Because he's the boss and head of a multibillion-dollar entertainment empire and I'd imagine at this point he can hire and fire with alacrity. Maybe you have one of those beautiful relationships with your career superiors where you can give honest criticism and they'll listen to it; so far I haven't had many of those and can see how Lucas could easily have dialogue that bad in the final script.

[Kupek]

I understand that it's difficult to tell the Emporer that he's not wearing any clothes, but there are producers and other people who have worked with Lucas closely and extensively that he's not going to just fire because they disagree with him.

[Zeus]

I don't understand how no one pulled Lucas aside and just told him how bad that dialouge is.

He built himself his own movie studio, audio studio, special effects house, 3D animation studio, and countless of other facilities just so he could do what he wants when he wants without any interference. He essentially works outside of the studio system completely with Fox as his distributor and marketing partner for the films only. There's a reason he's consistently rated one of the most powerful people (single people) in Hollywood (as a filmmaker, not studio exec).

[EsquE]

I liked it....

That is all...

[Ishamael]

Easily the worst scene in the movie.

I don't know about that.


Anakin: You're so beautiful!

Padme: I'm beautiful because I'm so in love.

Anakin: No, you're beautiful because I'm so in love with you.

2nd worst scene from me. Lots of audible groans at that one. That was merely lame, wereas the other scene was over the top paradoy cliche.

That I said, I wouldn't have Lucas remove it. It's brought me lots of joy.

[Torgo]

That I said, I wouldn't have Lucas remove it. It's brought me lots of joy. Smile

Agreed. The camera work, Vader's delivery and body language were so over the top I'm inclined to think that it was wholly intentional. As bad as it was, I was eagerly awaiting that scene when I watched it again.

[Kupek]

He built himself his own movie studio, audio studio, special effects house, 3D animation studio, and countless of other facilities just so he could do what he wants when he wants without any interference. He essentially works outside of the studio system completely with Fox as his distributor and marketing partner for the films only. There's a reason he's consistently rated one of the most powerful people (single people) in Hollywood (as a filmmaker, not studio exec).

Right, I know and understand all of this, but as I already said, he doesn't work in a vaccuum.

[Julius Seeker]

All Starwars movies are full of bad lines; it is a staple of the series, and a defining point of it. One thing it is known for.

[Zeus]

He built himself his own movie studio, audio studio, special effects house, 3D animation studio, and countless of other facilities just so he could do what he wants when he wants without any interference. He essentially works outside of the studio system completely with Fox as his distributor and marketing partner for the films only. There's a reason he's consistently rated one of the most powerful people (single people) in Hollywood (as a filmmaker, not studio exec).

Right, I know and understand all of this, but as I already said, he doesn't work in a vaccuum.

That's where we fundamentally disagree. He DOES work in a vacuum. He does what he wants, when he wants, how he wants. He flat out doesn't care about what anyone else thinks. No one has any influence over him at all. Yet people still buy his stuff in droves.

He basically has no incentive to ever change his mind for anyone. People pitch him ideas. If he likes it, it's a go. If not, it's not. I'm sure he has some people close to him he trusts and may listen to, but he doesn't have to, ever.

I honestly think that he just doesn't have much of an opinion over much of the stuff other than the films and TV shows and lets it all go. That's how you end up with mostly crappy games and bars of soap with a Darth Vader plastic bust inside.

[Imakeholesinu]

Because he's the boss and head of a multibillion-dollar entertainment empire and I'd imagine at this point he can hire and fire with alacrity. Maybe you have one of those beautiful relationships with your career superiors where you can give honest criticism and they'll listen to it; so far I haven't had many of those and can see how Lucas could easily have dialogue that bad in the final script.

Lucas = The Emperor? He's become the dark sith lord himself! We must hatch a plot to retrieve the original film negatives so he does not destroy them! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!

[Kupek]

Lucas = The Emperor? He's become the dark sith lord himself! We must hatch a plot to retrieve the original film negatives so he does not destroy them! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!

In the two hour making-of that comes with the original trilogy DVDs, Lucas actually volunteers this observation. He always disliked the corporate studio system and he risked everything he had to make movies outside of it. Now he heads a very large corporation that makes movies.

Anyway, in response to Zeus, as far as how Lucas works, we're just disagreeing on semantics. I am still surprised, however, that one of the people he has worked with for a long time did not tell him that, for the good of the movie, he should get someone to help write the dialouge.

[Lox]

Just saw it yesterday and loved it!

You guys have already hit on a lot but these are my thoughts:

-I thought the turn was done superbly. The first point where he attacked Mace Windu and then turned felt slightly rushed but then as the rest of the movie progressed, it made more sense and I really liked how it all went down.

-Anakin and Obi-Wan fight - sooooooo awesome. The whole thing was fun to watch and the end with Anakin on fire, screaming at Obi-Wan with that hate in his eyes, and Obi-Wan screaming how Anakin was like a brother...it made me shudder. At that point, I almost felt sick. Now we know why Obi-Wan was so humorless in Episode IV.

-I was actually impressed with Anakin and Padme's scenes. I think this has to do with expectation. I expected them to be just as bad as in Episode II but they were much better, imo, and so comparatively, I liked them. I totally understood why Anakin fell because, for me, it only took those couple of scenes with Anakin and Padme for me to understand how much he truly needed her and how unwilling he was to lose her. I think I've contemplated those feelings myself sometimes and that might be why I felt that connection more easily than other people.

-Palpatine was awesome. The way he played Anakin's desire to save Padme along with his impatience with the Jedi Council was so evil. The way Anakin went from the council being an annoyance to his overconfidence to beginning to believe they were the same as the Sith to considering them enemies of the Republic was crazy but so cool.

-The scene with Darth Vader at the end didn't bother me that much. I figured the reason he would walk weird right off of the operating table was because he had 2 new robot legs that he wasn't used to walking with. And how he asked about Padme and then crushed everything around him with his anger was cool.


Overall, I loved the movie. I have to see it again, even if I go by myself.

Edit (I forgot to add this):
At the end, I honestly felt sad. The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Anakin. He lost the one person he loved more than anything. His body is grotesque and scarred and he's forced to wear that suit forever. Obi-Wan, his closest friend, is now his enemy. It really makes me sad.

[Kupek]

The scene with Darth Vader at the end didn't bother me that much. I figured the reason he would walk weird right off of the operating table was because he had 2 new robot legs that he wasn't used to walking with. And how he asked about Padme and then crushed everything around him with his anger was cool.

I don't think it's cheesy because he can't walk right, but because he screams "Nooooo" in a cliched way.

According to IMDB, the suit was made top heavy on purpose so that Hayden Chriastensen <i>would</i> walk akwardly at first.

[Lox]

I don't think it's cheesy because he can't walk right, but because he screams "Nooooo" in a cliched way.

Yeah, that part was a bit much, but overall it didn't bother me too too much. Lucas could have done it better but I expect nothing better from him.

According to IMDB, the suit was made top heavy on purpose so that Hayden Chriastensen <i>would</i> walk akwardly at first.

That's interesting.

[Zeus]

Edit (I forgot to add this):
At the end, I honestly felt sad. The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Anakin. He lost the one person he loved more than anything. His body is grotesque and scarred and he's forced to wear that suit forever. Obi-Wan, his closest friend, is now his enemy. It really makes me sad.

Well, he makes up for it by killing his former mentor in ANH, that should ease some of his pain :-)

[Lox]

Edit (I forgot to add this):
At the end, I honestly felt sad. The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Anakin. He lost the one person he loved more than anything. His body is grotesque and scarred and he's forced to wear that suit forever. Obi-Wan, his closest friend, is now his enemy. It really makes me sad.

Well, he makes up for it by killing his former mentor in ANH, that should ease some of his pain :-)

The way I look at it too, is that the Darth Vader we see at the end of Ep III is evil but he's not quite as hard as the one from IV and onward. By IV, he's had 20+ years to distance himself from any feelings he had for Padme or his children or Obi-Wan or anyone. That's why it's so hard for him to come back at the end of VI.

[Agent 57]

At the end, I honestly felt sad. The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Anakin. He lost the one person he loved more than anything. His body is grotesque and scarred and he's forced to wear that suit forever. Obi-Wan, his closest friend, is now his enemy. It really makes me sad.

I would have to say that I lost the ability to care about Anakin's losses after he brutally killed Mace Windu and (especially) a roomful of children.

[Lox]

I would have to say that I lost the ability to care about Anakin's losses after he brutally killed Mace Windu and (especially) a roomful of children.

That's part of it too. He fell so far that he'd even kill children. I guess I really felt a connection to him and I pitied him because he became a monster.

[Flip]

That's part of it too. He fell so far that he'd even kill children. I guess I really felt a connection to him and I pitied him because he became a monster.

He fell, thats for sure, but for what reason? I still think it is hard to believe that Anakin would do all this evil on a premonition, even if a similar earlier premonition turned out to be true. Especially since the 'cure' he wanted to learn was based on a story that only said ability was possible, not guanteed. The Emperor himself even said, i know with the 2 of us we can figure it out... gee, he sounds real sure of himself, in the meantime go kill some kids.

It just would have made so much more sense for Padme to BE dying, or have already died or for their marriage to have been found out and Anakin exiled from the Jedi AND Padme dying for such a change to take place, IMO.

The movie was good, but i think it had some potential, too.

[Flip]

I think i figured out the problem, things would have been much easier if Anakin was just an evil kid from the beginning and the Jedi (recognizing his power) had taken him on as a sort of project to make him good, but failed. Besides the rage that made him kill his mother and Dooku, Anakin was a good person with a good heart; just seems so out of place for him to do what he did in #3... i dont know why i am still on this topic, i guess i just like character development and thought it lacked with the most important character in the story.

[Agent 57]

You know, Flip, what bugs me about the whole thing is the fact that what Obi-Wan told Luke just doesn't quite jive with the way things went down.

<i>"When I met your father, he was already a great pilot - but I was amazed at how strong the Force was with him. I then took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."</i>

What that always suggested to me was that Anakin would have been much older when he met Obi-Wan (say, in his early twenties or something), and already having created a life for himself as a talented pilot. (Perhaps they would have met as allies in the Clone Wars.) Obi-Wan then decided to train Anakin as a Jedi, but screwed it up when Anakin was at his most vulnerable to the seduction of the Dark Side (like Luke was during ESB) and lost him to a sudden lust for power.

That, to me, seems much more plausible than having Anakin being trained by the Jedi since he was 9 years old and suddenly changing his entire outlook towards them in a matter of weeks, or days, or however long it took.

On the flipside, the transition from the Republic to the Empire was handled relatively well, I thought (and makes enough sense if you're willing to believe that none of the Jedi could have detected that Palpatine was as strong in the Dark Side as he was, as I've pointed out elsewhere).

So, IMO, the trilogy would have been much better if Episode I had concerned itself with Palpatine's political maneuvering into the position of Chancellor, and Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan's adventures in trying to save Naboo (removing Anakin's character and influence entirely); Episode II had concerned itself with the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan meeting Anakin and beginning his training; and Episode III with the seduction of Anakin to the Dark Side, the fall of the Jedi, and the rise of the Emperor.

[Lox]

That, to me, seems much more plausible than having Anakin being trained by the Jedi since he was 9 years old and suddenly changing his entire outlook towards them in a matter of weeks, or days, or however long it took.

When the one person you care for more than anything in the world is doomed, as Anakin thought Padme was, and you've already lost the other person who you care almost as strongly about but lost due to reasons you blame on yourself, as Anakin did with his mother, and have the opportunity to "make things right" just by dipping into the Dark Side of the Force, you'll do just about anything. At least someone who, imo, is as screwed up emotionally as Anakin is would. Love can make you do some crazy things.

Like I said above, I'd kill someone if they threatened my fiancee. I might not do it as quickly but if it came down to that, I would. Anakin seemed to honestly think the Jedi were an indirect threat to his saving Padme so he did what he felt he had to do.

That's how I look at it.

[SineSwiper]

I just watched the movie, and yeah, I thought that the turn was rushed, but it was a really really bad move on Mace's part. Mace Windu just plain fucked up. He was normally a very wise character throughout, second only to Yoda. (In both wisdom and power. Fuck, he crippled General Grievious with a single force crush at the end of Clone Wars.) I was actually kinda surprised at Mace's sudden turn of his own "dark thoughts", suddenly deciding to destroy him than arrest him, even against Anakin's argument that it was against the Jedi way. That sort of behavior was exactly the push that Anakin needed to move to the dark side. Mace doomed the Jedi Order.

I just thought that the situation after that was too sudden. Not exactly the killing kids part, but just that Anakin bowed down to Palapatine so quickly. Granted, killing Mace was going to push him over the edge, but I thought there would be more inner conflict before he eventually went to him.

[Zeus]

You know, Flip, what bugs me about the whole thing is the fact that what Obi-Wan told Luke just doesn't quite jive with the way things went down.

<i>"When I met your father, he was already a great pilot - but I was amazed at how strong the Force was with him. I then took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."</i>

What that always suggested to me was that Anakin would have been much older when he met Obi-Wan (say, in his early twenties or something), and already having created a life for himself as a talented pilot. (Perhaps they would have met as allies in the Clone Wars.) Obi-Wan then decided to train Anakin as a Jedi, but screwed it up when Anakin was at his most vulnerable to the seduction of the Dark Side (like Luke was during ESB) and lost him to a sudden lust for power.

Well, you COULD argue that:

1) Anakin was a great pod racing pilot
2) Obi-Wan did, in fact, promise Qui-Gon that he would take over the training of Anakin in TPM and that Yoda took over Obi-Wan's training after Qui-Gon died.

The first is a bit of a stretch, but it's not a flat-out inconsistency. The second fits well

That, to me, seems much more plausible than having Anakin being trained by the Jedi since he was 9 years old and suddenly changing his entire outlook towards them in a matter of weeks, or days, or however long it took.

I'll disagree with you on this one. Many of the children Anakin killed were under the age of 9 as were many of those with Yoda in TPM. Yoda specifically said that Anakin was too old to start his training. They made it quite clear in TPM that they have to start proper Jedi training before they're too old and they get too attached to anything, otherwise they're more likely to give in to things like anger and fear and hatred, which, as we all know by now, is the way to the dark side.

On the flipside, the transition from the Republic to the Empire was handled relatively well, I thought (and makes enough sense if you're willing to believe that none of the Jedi could have detected that Palpatine was as strong in the Dark Side as he was, as I've pointed out elsewhere).

I'll agree but for one thing: if Yoda and Mace couldn't detect it, how could the others? The Sith had been underground for about 800 years at that point, I'm pretty sure they knew how to not make their presence felt.

So, IMO, the trilogy would have been much better if Episode I had concerned itself with Palpatine's political maneuvering into the position of Chancellor, and Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan's adventures in trying to save Naboo (removing Anakin's character and influence entirely); Episode II had concerned itself with the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan meeting Anakin and beginning his training; and Episode III with the seduction of Anakin to the Dark Side, the fall of the Jedi, and the rise of the Emperor.

I don't know about this one. I just finished watching Empire and everything that happened in TPM fit well with what Yoda was saying in that film. He keeps trying to steer Luke away from his anger/hatred, he says Luke's too old to start training, etc. It's basically the same thing except now he's working on an 18 year old (or so) rather than a 9 year old. There's actually quite a bit of consitency there, even Luke's ability to pilot and how he's able to use the force without hardly knowing it or with little training (destroying the Death Star, good piloting, sticking out his hand and getting his lightsaber from the snow creature in Hoth).

There are inconsistencies, no doubt (Leia: "I only remember very little of my real mom, I was very young when she died"), but for the most part, it's quite consistent. As I've said many times, I think that the main problem people have with the newer trilogy is that it's too much like the old ones (visuals excepted). It just didn't really grow with the audience. There are tons of hard cuts, poor secondary character acting, silly moments, and annoying characters (you could easily argue that the Ewok's silliness in Jedi is as bad as Jar Jar; some did, as there was a big outcry in '83 about the Ewoks being too cute and silly, particularly after the very serious Empire) in the old trilogy. But it's different when you see them originally as a child versus your MUCH more critical mind (from age, not just experiences) as a 20+ year old (yes, Kupek, it's the rose-coloured glasses arguement in different words)

[Torgo]

Obi-Wan was taught by Yoda as a child. Remember in AotC there's a scene where Yoda's training some younglings to use the lightsaber. This means that Yoda teaches most of the younger padawans until they're old enough to be assigned to a specific, older Jedi. Cheap, I know.

[Zeus]

Actually, Torgo, that makes even more sense