The Shrine

Why does this show insist on killing off a main character about every 15 episodes? The first few they killed, I didn't care about. However, now they are getting to the more interesting characters, and it's pissing me off.

Which ones are you referring to? It's been a while since I saw season 3.

(MAJOR SPOILERS)

Well, first, there was the richy rich brother and sister, and I didn't care. They sucked. The only thing I didn't like was that Iraqi dude (forgot his name now) was getting into her, and it was a damn shame for him. That was first season. (Though, the high school teacher was actually a pretty funny death.)

Second season, they killed off Anna Luisa and Libby. Anna was annoying, but was starting to grow on me. Libby was actually interesting, and you really felt sorry for Hugo getting robbed of a girlfriend. Not to mention the fact that it was Michael who killed them. It was like they fucked up three characters in 10 seconds. There's also that incident with Charlie secretly trying to kidnap Sun. That was pretty fucked up, too. (God, I hate Charlie.)

So, now, I'm not even 10 episodes into season 3 and they kill off Eko, probably the most interesting new character in the series.

It's like they do this shit just for kicks or something.

I never minded any of the deaths in the series. I always felt like they were purposeful because they set up something later or helped you understand other characters better. And that's the way deaths should be used.

SPOILERS
Without spoiling too much for you, Sine, I'll say that Season 3 was when they finally got an end date so it was necessary for the show to start removing characters that didn't fit into the major theme and story. Eko was interesting, but ultimately, his purpose had been served so I was fine with him dying.
END SPOILERS

Just wait until you start to see how all of these events (including the deaths) fit into place. It's very well done.

yeah it was with the end of season three when the awful tripe that was season 2/the beginning of 3 was reedeemed. I still credit BKV more than getting a firm end date as the first ep that was written after he was hired was the first good ep of the season.

Season 3 has the most fucking EPIC conclusion of them all. It's literally some kind of humongous homage to old 70's epic sci-fi shit, like Planet of the Apes, with a big orchestral finish and Jack turning into Moses. So, get ready, because it gets GREAT and it gets great FAST.

lol Dont say that. We already stayed up till 3am last night watching eps from season 3. I want to get season 3 done by Monday since we dont know what's going to happen at my next Dr appt, but I need sleep!!

SineSwiper wrote:
God, I hate Charlie.

Not sure I've ever known about anyone who hates Charlie before. Can't say I blame you, but it's pretty hard not to enjoy his redemption episodes at the very least. (Edit: Actually I do find his flashback episodes pretty campy and predictable)

I honestly like how they kill off a lot of the characters. Only a handful of them didn't have it coming in my opinion. Characters typically get what they deserve. Libby is a strange exception to this. I'm very interested in whatever explanation they come up for for certain things pertaining to her.

I really didn't particularly enjoy seasons two and three, although three is markedly better than two. Four and five easily make up for it, though. Season five has my favorite episode (The Constant).

When you eventually get caught up you should check out the Lostpedia (lostpedia.wikia.com). There's some pretty crazy stuff that's very difficult to see going through the series for the first time. The theories that people post also range from the deeply plausible, to the completely bizzare, to the utterly dumb.

SineSwiper wrote:Why does this show insist on killing off a main character about every 15 episodes? The first few they killed, I didn't care about. However, now they are getting to the more interesting characters, and it's pissing me off.

I'm curious how you made it past Season 2. I just gave up 2 eps into Season 2.

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:Why does this show insist on killing off a main character about every 15 episodes? The first few they killed, I didn't care about. However, now they are getting to the more interesting characters, and it's pissing me off.

I'm curious how you made it past Season 2. I just gave up 2 eps into Season 2.

If you're not watching it as it airs, then it's fucking amazing.

Have you ever watched 24? The first season was amazing. The cliffhangers are like doing hard drugs. Good seasons are even rarer on that show.

Yeah, what he said. Season 2 didn't suck. And how do you stop watching a session of a good series 2 episodes into it? The seasons last 24 episodes, so that's not nearly enough to get a feel for it.

Besides, the first two episodes of season 2 was when they found out about what's inside the hatch. How was that NOT good episodes? After many episodes of trying to figure this shit out, you finally get some answers, and you're BITCHING?!

I actually disliked Charlie, too. I don't remember why now because I have a different view of him based on later events in the series.

He's an idiot. I WANT to like him, but he's constantly lying to try and keep himself out of trouble, but it ends up backfiring every time.

SineSwiper wrote:Yeah, what he said. Season 2 didn't suck. And how do you stop watching a session of a good series 2 episodes into it? The seasons last 24 episodes, so that's not nearly enough to get a feel for it.

Besides, the first two episodes of season 2 was when they found out about what's inside the hatch. How was that NOT good episodes? After many episodes of trying to figure this shit out, you finally get some answers, and you're BITCHING?!

Shrin - I watched it on torrent downloads after Season 2 had already started. And I love 24 and have seen all of it and thought Season 1 was one of the weakest seasons

I couldn't deal with the horrible flashbacks anymore and when there was absolutely zero forward plot movement in ep 2 of Season 2, I just had it with the show. All they did was repeat what was in the first ep from a different point of view.

Simply put, this show proves the problem with JJ Abrhams: great ideas, horrible implementation. It was a mini-series that they tried to stretch out into a full series and it just didn't work.

Except it does work and is watched by many, many people?

Don't pay any attention to Zeus, Shrin. He's admitted that he gave up on the show at it's weakest point and so he hasn't seen any of the most recent amazing episodes. Plus, by the beginning of season 2, we had no idea where the story was going so you couldn't see how well planned it really was.

Also, he sucks.

Lox wrote:Plus, by the beginning of season 2, we had no idea where the story was going so you couldn't see how well planned it really was.

Actually, neither did they. From a 2008 NYT article:

“We were sort of stalling” last season, said Carlton Cuse, an executive producer of “Lost” who, with Damon Lindelof, forms the core of the creative team behind the island mystery. “We didn’t know whether the mythology we constructed had to last two more seasons or seven more seasons. And that was driving us crazy because we didn’t know how fast it was going to play out.”

What the producers asked for and the network and ABC’s television studio granted was something almost unheard of in network television: an end date, when the series would conclude and the mysteries of the island would be revealed.

I've never watched the show, but I'd have real difficulty making it through the second and third seasons knowing that the writers were making it up as they went along.

Yes, I knew that already. The impression I got was that they had ideas regarding where they wanted the story to go, but they didn't have an idea when they had to get there. If I'm writing a story, but I don't know how long the story has to be, the pacing is going to be very difficult to plan. So, things that happened in Season 2 and 3 weren't meaningless filler, but you weren't getting a lot of answers to big questions until seasons 4+ because by then they knew when the show had to finish.

Anyone who has actually watched the show all the way through knows what the major themes and plotlines are. I can see why they couldn't risk using up their major stories too quickly or they'd end up with filler at the end of the series instead or they'd have to come up with some "new" storyline and I just don't think it would have worked as well.

And, besides, seasons 4+ have been incredible, so Zeus saying that the show doesn't work based on a single season is unfounded (especially when season 1 was excellent by most people's standards). He's making judgments without seeing the majority of the show.

Kupek wrote: I've never watched the show, but I'd have real difficulty making it through the second and third seasons knowing that the writers were making it up as they went along.

Oh, no, it was difficult to watch. I was too hooked from season one to stop watching initially. I just thundered through and re-watched everything since Netflix put up all of Lost on Instant Watch (streaming) and if I wasn't hopelessly bored (nothing all that great coming out for the 360 or PC) with my free time I probably wouldn't have been so gung ho about going through seasons two and three.

Still, the writers made it work and if they didn't this thread probably wouldn't be here.

I'm just about to start season 2 on DVD and my boss gave me season 3 for free so I'll go through that next. It's been a while since I watched 2 or 3 so I'll see what I think.

Shrinweck wrote:Except it does work and is watched by many, many people?

There are many, many lemmings that jump off of a cliff to their death. So the few that are left over - and the ones that keep the species alive - are wrong? Besides, by that logic, Titanic would be the greatest film ever made and nearly everyone here would be dead, dead wrong......

And these fuckers admitted they were stalling and made it up as they went along (see Kup's post)? They basically admitted they had nothing and were just stringing people along making coin off of them while giving back nothing creatively. Much, much worse than them just being horrible at making a TV show. Wow, I didn't realize it was that blatant on their part and am shocked that they would ever admit it. It sure as hell felt like that was the case while I was watching it but the fact that it was a conscious decision on their part makes it far, far worse. If I were a fan of the show and found this out, I'd boycott it immediately. If you can still support these pieces of shit after an admission like that you don't deserve good television.

And Lox, I gave the show 24 episodes before I couldn't deal with it anymore. I really, really, really wanted to like it and give it FAAR more slack than nearly anything else I've ever tried to watch before I gave up. Season 1 started out great, which is why I kept on watching, but lost it quickly and stalled liked crazy with 80% flashbacks in each ep. No forward plot movement = stretching it out. When used to that extent they're basically inner-ep filler and is a classic way of stretching out a shorter plot. I really feel the show woulda been a spectacular 16 ep or so miniseries and, if they came up with something good, maybe even a sequel series. But, like Prison Break, it sure as hell felt like a mini-series stretched out into a full series that never should have been.

Hey, it's not like it's my opinion the show was stretched, the fuckers actually admitted it. I just couldn't make it to "when it got good" anymore than many of the Naruto fans who left before later Shippuuden returned Naruto to the glory of old. There was only so much I could take.

Man, you need to get off of your high horse. And here's the thing - there are a bunch of us here at the Shrine telling you over and over that the last few seasons have been incredible and that we admit that the 2nd and 1/2 of the 3rd seasons weren't great. You keep acting like the fact that you gave it 24 episodes out of 102 makes it possible for you to have an informed opinion on the show as a whole, but it doesn't. That doesn't make sense for any type of entertainment.

It's akin to you listening to the first album by some band that wasn't very good and going "Man, they suck." Then a bunch of us tell you "But check out their later albums - they're incredible." And you respond by saying "I listened to their first album. They suck."

I'm fine with you having an opinion on the show even if I disagree. My issue is that you refuse to admit that your opinion isn't all that valid to us when we're talking from the perspective of 5 seasons, not 1. Plus, we get it already. You don't like the show. You don't need to jump into every conversation about it just to proclaim that "I watched 24 episodes and the show is crap" every single time. You tend to do that with a lot of stuff and it gets a bit old.

I actually agree with Lox. My deal is that not having watched any of it, I don't want to start knowing that two seasons worth will drag. If I'm going to spend the time to get into a series, I'd rather watch a different one. (Specifically, Battlestar Gallactica. I might just have to buy the DVDs one day.)

Kupek wrote:I actually agree with Lox.

Hey! Don't sound so surprised.

Kupek wrote:My deal is that not having watched any of it, I don't want to start knowing that two seasons worth will drag. If I'm going to spend the time to get into a series, I'd rather watch a different one. (Specifically, Battlestar Gallactica. I might just have to buy the DVDs one day.)

I totally understand what you mean. As big of a fan as I am of Lost, I can't fault you for that especially knowing how busy you seem to be. Plus, BSG is one that I have always wanted to get into as well but haven't had time for.

Zeus wrote:

Shrinweck wrote:Except it does work and is watched by many, many people?

There are many, many lemmings that jump off of a cliff to their death. So the few that are left over - and the ones that keep the species alive - are wrong? Besides, by that logic, Titanic would be the greatest film ever made and nearly everyone here would be dead, dead wrong......

No. This has little to do with that goddamned argument. Please stop shitting on the Lost thread just for your kicks.

Lox wrote:Man, you need to get off of your high horse. And here's the thing - there are a bunch of us here at the Shrine telling you over and over that the last few seasons have been incredible and that we admit that the 2nd and 1/2 of the 3rd seasons weren't great. You keep acting like the fact that you gave it 24 episodes out of 102 makes it possible for you to have an informed opinion on the show as a whole, but it doesn't. That doesn't make sense for any type of entertainment.

It's akin to you listening to the first album by some band that wasn't very good and going "Man, they suck." Then a bunch of us tell you "But check out their later albums - they're incredible." And you respond by saying "I listened to their first album. They suck."

I'm fine with you having an opinion on the show even if I disagree. My issue is that you refuse to admit that your opinion isn't all that valid to us when we're talking from the perspective of 5 seasons, not 1. Plus, we get it already. You don't like the show. You don't need to jump into every conversation about it just to proclaim that "I watched 24 episodes and the show is crap" every single time. You tend to do that with a lot of stuff and it gets a bit old.

You will have to explain the high horse comment.

Some were wondering about starting the show and sure, if it got better, it may not seem like the first two seasons were an unimaginable struggle now, but they sure are when first starting out.

And it's not like I watched 2 episodes and wrote it off. I saw what is at this point 1/4 of the show. That WAAY more than enough to have an informed opinion by anyone's standards when it comes to a TV show. How many shows have you struggled through more than 20 eps just to see what's going to happen even though it wasn't that good? No one watches that many eps of anything and not know what's going on. I'm not saying it didn't change or get better, I have no idea if it did or not, I was simply commenting on the first 24 eps.

I don't need to listen to Master of Puppets to enjoy Metallica. Hell, I didn't even need to watch the first two seasons of the Cosby Show to enjoy seasons 3 and up. But you need to watch the first two season of Lost to even fathom what's going on in the third and beyond. You're talking about a serial series that needs to be watched consecutively to even catch a fraction of what's going on in a later episode. Bad, bad analogy.

Besides, I was responding to Sine and Shrin, not you.

Kupek wrote:I actually agree with Lox. My deal is that not having watched any of it, I don't want to start knowing that two seasons worth will drag. If I'm going to spend the time to get into a series, I'd rather watch a different one. (Specifically, Battlestar Gallactica. I might just have to buy the DVDs one day.)

Battlestar is a good one to try and start. You get a pretty solid idea after the first couple of eps about the tone and idea of the show and whether or not you want to continue.

Odd. As much as certain parts of Season 2 pissed me off, it was still an enjoyable season. I have watched much worse seasons from other shows. (Season 2 and 3 of Heroes comes to mind.)

Zeus wrote:If you can still support these pieces of shit after an admission like that you don't deserve good television.

This is what I was referring to with the "high horse" comment.

The analogy wasn't bad. You were just missing the point of it. Besides, every analogy will fail if you nitpick it. The point was that you consistently ignore the opinions of people who have watched the entire show so that you can keep bashing it based on your limited exposure.

Zeus wrote:Simply put, this show proves the problem with JJ Abrhams: great ideas, horrible implementation. It was a mini-series that they tried to stretch out into a full series and it just didn't work.

That was an earlier post in this thread. Maybe it was just you being unclear, but that sounds like you're making a statement on the entire series and not just the first 24 episodes. If you're changing your opinion to "The first couple seasons are too hard to watch so it's not worth it to get to the later seasons", then that's totally different and I can accept that. If you keep making sweeping generalized statements about the show, then those of us who enjoy it are going to call you on it.

Like I said, I'm fine with you not enjoying the first season of the show. I can accept opposing opinions. It's more the way you do it.


Also, Sine, I did still enjoy Season 2 when I first watched it or else I wouldn't be re-watching it now. I'm excited to see what I think of it now knowing more and seeing the last few seasons.

SineSwiper wrote:Odd. As much as certain parts of Season 2 pissed me off, it was still an enjoyable season. I have watched much worse seasons from other shows. (Season 2 and 3 of Heroes comes to mind.)

Yeah, Season 2 of Heroes was fucking rough. Thankfully it was only what, 12 episodes long? At least Kring admitted it and started changing the show for the better. You didn't think Season 3 (Volumes 3 and 4) got better as they went along?

Lox wrote:

Zeus wrote:If you can still support these pieces of shit after an admission like that you don't deserve good television.

This is what I was referring to with the "high horse" comment.

The analogy wasn't bad. You were just missing the point of it. Besides, every analogy will fail if you nitpick it. The point was that you consistently ignore the opinions of people who have watched the entire show so that you can keep bashing it based on your limited exposure.

Zeus wrote:Simply put, this show proves the problem with JJ Abrhams: great ideas, horrible implementation. It was a mini-series that they tried to stretch out into a full series and it just didn't work.

That was an earlier post in this thread. Maybe it was just you being unclear, but that sounds like you're making a statement on the entire series and not just the first 24 episodes. If you're changing your opinion to "The first couple seasons are too hard to watch so it's not worth it to get to the later seasons", then that's totally different and I can accept that. If you keep making sweeping generalized statements about the show, then those of us who enjoy it are going to call you on it.

Like I said, I'm fine with you not enjoying the first season of the show. I can accept opposing opinions. It's more the way you do it.


Also, Sine, I did still enjoy Season 2 when I first watched it or else I wouldn't be re-watching it now. I'm excited to see what I think of it now knowing more and seeing the last few seasons.

Oh, OK. That was more of a "don't support this type of behaviour or you'll be telling TV producers it's OK to wander aimlessly" type of a comment. The fact that they didn't even know the direction of where they wanted to go with a serial-type show and just kept using filler and making things up on a spot is not something we want to see. That was more of me ranting on the comment the producer made as opposed to the show itself. That comment shocked me to a degree and really pissed me off. Certainly not the type of behaviour/mentality that you want to see in your TV show, especially if you get caught up in it and want to keep watching it (I like the first few eps quite a bit, that's why I went so long before giving it up).

I was actually referring to Abrahms' overall resume with that second comment. To me, Lost was just another example of Abrahms doing his thing, having a great idea and fucking it up with implementation as opposed to commenting on the overall show itself.

In both of those comments, I wasn't referring to the show itself but rather went off on small tangents to related topics. Like I said a bunch of times already, I don't comment on the show at all beyond the first 24 eps, never have. It very well could have gotten much better, I have no idea. But that's a helluva hill to climb and that's all I've ever said.

Zeus wrote:Simply put, this show proves the problem with JJ Abrhams: great ideas, horrible implementation. It was a mini-series that they tried to stretch out into a full series and it just didn't work.

Sorry, it's just too easy to think that the wording of this comment has to do with Lost in a Lost thread and not a thread complaining that Abrahms tends to be aimless.

Now, I'm not going to refute that it's pretty crappy for a show (or, hey, for that matter anything written in an episodic format) to write without an end in mind, but if they end up pulling their shit together then the show, at the very least, works.

Also, jumping on the "You should probably watch BSG, Kupek" bandwagon.