The Shrine

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Go watch Hero right now. That is all</div>

<div style='font: 9pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I did. Last year :)</div>

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>It's not playing anywhere around here for no reason!</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Times New Roman"; text-align: left; '>Watched it, thought it sucked. And for the record, I enjoyed Crouching Tiger.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>A conspiracy against you. Haven't we told you before that everything revolves around you? Get with the program, sheesh.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>God DAMMIT! I never suspected it was as far-reaching as this...the bastards will simply stop at no lengths to defeat me, will they?</div>

<div style='font: 11pt Dominion; text-align: left; '>then you're just backwards man today :P</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Things I liked:

-There were several excellent fight scenes. Nameless vs. Sky was enjoyable and very Kenshin-like, and Broken Sword vs. Emperor Qin was also nifty.

-The Emperor himself was a great character. I liked the conversation scenes between him and Nameless more than any other part of the film, excepting the good fight scenes.

-Zhang Ziyi is damned cute.


Things I didn't like so much:

-The "knocking away the arrows on the roof" scene. Watching Nameless and Snow go through a kata and flail their arms around, respectively, while CG arrows <i>didn't</i> hit them was pretty boring. Neither character was doing anything particularly cool, and the scene must have lasted nearly thirty seconds.

-The fight between Snow and Moon in Nameless' false story. There really wasn't any real fighting going on; it was just Moon yelling and rushing Snow before she got blown away by one swing of Snow's sword - and that happened six times! It may have been intended to be all stylistic with all the leaves blowing around, but it just ended up being repetitive and boring.

-As I walked out of the theater, it bugged me how the story seemed to have been dominated by Broken Sword, when it was emphasized so much that Nameless was the "main" character. On top of that, Nameless really didn't <i>do</i> anything. He came to the palace intending to kill the king - fully knowledgeable of Broken Sword's objections and reasoning, and completely ignoring them - and changed his mind at the last minute, for reasons that I'm not sure were ever made totally clear. And for this he was made a hero, when Broken Sword, who actually came to the "Our Land" realization in the first place, ended up dead in the desert, killed by his own lover? It just rubbed me the wrong way.


Like I said, it wasn't terrible, nor was it really really great. There have been other kung fu action movies I've liked better (including CTHD).

<i>-57</i></div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>No, seriously, you have some legitimate gripes from your perspective. This is how I saw it...

"The "knocking away the arrows on the roof" scene. Watching Nameless and Snow go through a kata and flail their arms around, respectively, while CG arrows didn't hit them was pretty boring. Neither character was doing anything particularly cool, and the scene must have lasted nearly thirty seconds."

I didn't mind it. Obviously it didn't bug me as much as it bugged you.

" -The fight between Snow and Moon in Nameless' false story. There really wasn't any real fighting going on; it was just Moon yelling and rushing Snow before she got blown away by one swing of Snow's sword - and that happened six times! It may have been intended to be all stylistic with all the leaves blowing around, but it just ended up being repetitive and boring."

This was because Moon was waaaaaay out of her league. Snow was giving her lots of chances to back down (perhaps because she's just a kid, or perhaps out of respect to Broken Sword), but Moon was too much fueled by rage to do so. Snow's patience finally gave and she ended the fight by killing Moon. This fight scene was IMO one of the more beautiful fight scenes in the movie, especially how they played with the leaves and the color contrast. The final color changing of the leaves was especially well done

"As I walked out of the theater, it bugged me how the story seemed to have been dominated by Broken Sword, when it was emphasized so much that Nameless was the "main" character. On top of that, Nameless really didn't do anything. "

But that's really your preconceived notion on who should be the "main" character, isn't it? Broken Sword certainly was one of the more central characters in the movie. IMO at least, the movie existed to tell a story, not as a tool to make Jet Li a bigger star.

"He came to the palace intending to kill the king - fully knowledgeable of Broken Sword's objections and reasoning, and completely ignoring them - and changed his mind at the last minute, for reasons that I'm not sure were ever made totally clear."

It was implied. Jet Li saw the emperor as a tyrant, and could not bring himself to forgive him, despite Broken Sword's compelling viewpoint. It was only when the emperor deciphered Broken Sword's calligraphy that Nameless realize that the emperor was not merely a bloodthirsty tyrant, but a sage king worthy of rule, and one who was capable of finally bringing peace to the land. Of course, in real history, Emperor Qin really was a bloodthirsty quack tyrant, but that doesn't factor into the discussion. :)

"And for this he was made a hero, when Broken Sword, who actually came to the "Our Land" realization in the first place, ended up dead in the desert, killed by his own lover? It just rubbed me the wrong way."

No one was "made" hero. The movie was not designed to make Jet Li "The Hero." The heroism comes in when Nameless sacrifices his 10 years of hard training, his anger, and his revenge, for greater good of the common people. For Broken sword, heroism comes in when he sacrifices a life of love and happiness with Snow for the same reason. The term "Hero" was not meant as a label for any particular character in the movie. Heroism comes from sacrifice. I think that's what the movie was pointing out.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>

I didn't mind it. Obviously it didn't bug me as much as it bugged you.

*shrug* Aside from not being terribly exciting, it also seemed extremely pointless. Hails of arrows were continuously falling on the calligraphy school, smashing into the classroom and thunking into the walls around the master both before AND after Nameless and Snow went up on the roof, and it didn't seem to me like their knocking away of the arrows was doing any good for anybody.

This was because Moon was waaaaaay out of her league. Snow was giving her lots of chances to back down (perhaps because she's just a kid, or perhaps out of respect to Broken Sword), but Moon was too much fueled by rage to do so. Snow's patience finally gave and she ended the fight by killing Moon. This fight scene was IMO one of the more beautiful fight scenes in the movie, especially how they played with the leaves and the color contrast. The final color changing of the leaves was especially well done

I'm not complaining about the visual imagery of the scene - it was very cool-looking. I have to admit, Snow being merciful in that scene did not particularly occur to me, considering that in that scenario, Snow killed Broken Sword after he bonked Moon (solely to rub it in her face) and then rubbed it in her face - but you do have a point in that Snow would have no real reason to *want* to kill Moon. But IMO, the two preceding factors did not make it any less boring.

It was like that Super Bowl when the Cowboys creamed the Bills 55-10. Yes it was football, yes it was the Super Bowl, and yet it was still boring (with the exception of the Don Beebe play).

But that's really your preconceived notion on who should be the "main" character, isn't it? Broken Sword certainly was one of the more central characters in the movie. IMO at least, the movie existed to tell a story, not as a tool to make Jet Li a bigger star.

Blame the previews, then. I don't think the previews showed Broken Sword even once.

It was implied. Jet Li saw the emperor as a tyrant, and could not bring himself to forgive him, despite Broken Sword's compelling viewpoint. It was only when the emperor deciphered Broken Sword's calligraphy that Nameless realize that the emperor was not merely a bloodthirsty tyrant, but a sage king worthy of rule, and one who was capable of finally bringing peace to the land.

Two things:

1) As far as I was able to tell, Broken Sword drew the character for "sword" as a request for Nameless in his false story, when Secret Agent Nameless was trying to figure out Broken Sword's swordsmanship from his calligraphy. Immediately after the story is finished, it is revealed that the whole story is a lie, and that Broken Sword is vehemently against the assassination of the king. By this point, I don't remember exactly how Nameless gets Broken Sword's sword to present to the king, but I thought it had to be taken by force.

Either way, since the events in Nameless' first story never happened, how did Broken Sword draw the character, when it was part of a plot he was completely opposed to? The only explanation that makes sense is that Nameless showed up to the calligraphy school in Secret Agent mode and only showed Broken Sword and Snow the head of Sky's spear until after the character was drawn. Either way, that's a pretty flimsy section of plot right there, and the movie doesn't make it immediately clear.

2) According to your explanation, Nameless changes his mind about the king when he "deciphers" Broken Sword's calligraphy and echoes Broken Sword's sentiments, correct? Keep this in mind, however - the king only said those things AFTER Nameless told him that was what Broken Sword had said. It had already been revealed that the king is quite the clever bastard by seeing through Nameless' false story. And you're going to tell me that the possibility never even crossed Nameless' mind that the king was screwing with him? Let's distill the conversation between the two characters for a second here.

Nameless: I killed Sky, Snow, and Broken Sword by doing all this stuff.
King: No you didn't, that's all bullshit. You're here to kill me.
Nameless: You're right. I am here to kill you. I've hated your guts and trained my heart out for the last ten years, and now that I'm within ten paces of you, there's no way I can fail.
King: Well, shit.
Nameless: But Broken Sword doesn't want me to kill you.
King: Really?
Nameless: Yep. Says you're just trying to unite the country instead of greedily conquer it. I didn't believe him, though, and I'm still here to kill you.
King: Actually, he's right! He saw right through me! (turns around) And this calligraphy says the exact same thing! Wow! That Broken Sword is one hell of a guy.

<i>(There's my point. If you were the emperor, in a room with a guy who you knew wanted to kill you, and he suddenly said what Nameless said, wouldn't you say the exact same thing? And sure, when you read it it looks like the obvious thing that someone in the king's position would say, but when coupled with his charisma and acting skills it sure sounded genuine, didn't it?)</i>

King (confident he's not going to go through with it): Here, have my sword. If you're gonna kill me, do it.
Nameless: No, you're right. I'm just gonna scare you and then get shot by a zillion arrows.
King: Let's posthumously make that man a hero for not killing me. That'll get a good message out.

The heroism comes in when Nameless sacrifices his 10 years of hard training, his anger, and his revenge, for greater good of the common people.

And when you look at it the way I just did, the "heroism" comes when a gullible schmuck lets a charismatic leader jump on his doubts and rip his conviction apart like tissue paper.

No one was "made" hero. The movie was not designed to make Jet Li "The Hero."

You know, I'd agree with you if there wasn't a text overlay that was shown immediately after Nameless was shot that said something to the effect of "He was executed as an assassin, but buried as a hero." When coupled with the previews, it's like the producers were running around the theater, bopping people on the head with big inflatable mallets that had "JET LI IS THE HERO" written on them.

Either way, you liked it, I did as well - just not as much, and I found problems with it. We agree to disagree. There you have it.

Regards,
<i>-57</i></div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>When was the last time Zhuge appeared concerned with politeness?</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>Not that I think I'm going to convince you to like it, but since I *loved* the movie, I'm going to keep the discussion going. Feel free to jet when you get bored. :)

*shrug* Aside from not being terribly exciting, it also seemed extremely pointless. Hails of arrows were continuously falling on the calligraphy school, smashing into the classroom and thunking into the walls around the master both before AND after Nameless and Snow went up on the roof, and it didn't seem to me like their knocking away of the arrows was doing any good for anybody.

For Nameless, it was to protect Broken Sword while he was doing his calligraphy. And they also might have managed to save a few more people.

"Blame the previews, then. I don't think the previews showed Broken Sword even once. "

That's because the western audience doesn't know who Tony Leung is, and Jet Li is already a star.

"1) As far as I was able to tell, Broken Sword drew the character for "sword" as a request for Nameless in his false story, when Secret Agent Nameless was trying to figure out Broken Sword's swordsmanship from his calligraphy. Immediately after the story is finished, it is revealed that the whole story is a lie, and that Broken Sword is vehemently against the assassination of the king. By this point, I don't remember exactly how Nameless gets Broken Sword's sword to present to the king, but I thought it had to be taken by force. "

I don't believe the story was a complete lie. The fact that Nameless got the scroll obviously shows it. The part where Nameless came as a guest to the school and asked Broken Sword for the "sword" character, along with the massacre at the school probably was real. The part where they get jealous and kill each other probably wasn't.

"Either way, since the events in Nameless' first story never happened, how did Broken Sword draw the character, when it was part of a plot he was completely opposed to? The only explanation that makes sense is that Nameless showed up to the calligraphy school in Secret Agent mode and only showed Broken Sword and Snow the head of Sky's spear until after the character was drawn. Either way, that's a pretty flimsy section of plot right there, and the movie doesn't make it immediately clear."

Good, so you did come to that conclusion, though I don't agree that it was flimsy. It's not necessarily a good thing for the movie to spell everything out for you. Imagine how the movie would have dragged on if with the telling of each new version of the story the storytellers had to go back and correct the old versions.

"2) According to your explanation, Nameless changes his mind about the king when he "deciphers" Broken Sword's calligraphy and echoes Broken Sword's sentiments, correct? Keep this in mind, however - the king only said those things AFTER Nameless told him that was what Broken Sword had said. It had already been revealed that the king is quite the clever bastard by seeing through Nameless' false story. And you're going to tell me that the possibility never even crossed Nameless' mind that the king was screwing with him? "

Realizing that the king was clever was one thing. Realizing that the king had capacity for peace is an entirely different thing altogether. As the king pointed out and as the candles showed, Nameless himself was quite conflicted with assassinating the king at one point.

"King: Actually, he's right! He saw right through me! (turns around) And this calligraphy says the exact same thing! Wow! That Broken Sword is one hell of a guy.

(There's my point. If you were the emperor, in a room with a guy who you knew wanted to kill you, and he suddenly said what Nameless said, wouldn't you say the exact same thing? And sure, when you read it it looks like the obvious thing that someone in the king's position would say, but when coupled with his charisma and acting skills it sure sounded genuine, didn't it?) "

Well if you're going to be cynical about it you can look at it that way. I don't think that was the intention of the story however. And going on a tangent (and the following is completely my own hypothesis), you can't really fake wisdom, at least not around the right people. Without the capacity for love and peace, I don't believe the king could have deciphered the calligraphy. And he couldn't bullshit about it to Nameless either. Being a person of high spiritual achievement himself, Nameless would have saw right through it. Nameless already saw the truth in Broken Sword's words, but his personal belief that the King was a tyrant would not allow him to give up the assassination attempt. When the king revealed himself not to be a tyrant, but a sage, Nameless could no longer bring himself to assassinate the king.

"King (confident he's not going to go through with it): Here, have my sword. If you're gonna kill me, do it.
Nameless: No, you're right. I'm just gonna scare you and then get shot by a zillion arrows."

Well Nameless already lost his sole purpose in life. I agree that he didn't have to die, and he could have jumped the wall and live out his life. With his abilities, there wasn't anything anyone could have done about it. It could have been a combination of his personal grief and loss of purpose, I don't know.

"You know, I'd agree with you if there wasn't a text overlay that was shown immediately after Nameless was shot that said something to the effect of "He was executed as an assassin, but buried as a hero." When coupled with the previews, it's like the producers were running around the theater, bopping people on the head with big inflatable mallets that had "JET LI IS THE HERO" written on them."

Well, I can't help the marketing. I don't believe the movie was initially marketed that way, and if it was, it would have been bullshit then too. I'm sorry that the hype and PR department contributed to the detraction of the movie for you. I guess I'm thankful that I wasn't exposed to that and that I wasn't as cynical to the king's motives.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>"You know, I'd agree with you if there wasn't a text overlay that was shown immediately after Nameless was shot that said something to the effect of "He was executed as an assassin, but buried as a hero"

I definitely don't remember a text overlay in the original movie. Doing that definitely weakens the scene. It's like writing "He's in anguish, dumbass!!" on top of the Scream painting. Mirimax must have thought the audience was too dumb to leave well enough alone. Heck, the execs might have been too dumb to get the movie themselves, which would have explained why they were so reluctant to release the movie in the first place.

Regards,
Alan</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Ah, so we got the "Americans are stupid and have a short attention span" special edition, then. *sigh*</div>

<div style='font: 14pt "Sans Serif"; text-align: justify; padding: 0% 15% 0% 15%; '>Well, he *did* say he respected his opinions before coming around with the other hand. :)</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Wow, either you completely missed the point of the film or you just saw it from a completely different persepctive that i did. All the things you didn't like I thought were strengths. Same with the cinematography, which was freakin' gorgeous</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>The text is as follows:

<blockquote>Nameless was executed as an assassin but buried a hero...

Sky gave up his sword in honor of his fallen friends...

In 221 BC, the King of Qin conquered all six kingdoms and unified China.

He ceased all expeditions and built the Great Wall to protect his subjects from the Northern Tribes.

The Qin Empire became the first dynasty of China...

And Qin Shihuang... the First Emperor.</blockquote>

It displays over a pan shot of the Great Wall that fades in after Nameless is carried off and fades out into the credits.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Also: I didn't find it obnoxious at all. It was a nice way to tie off the film, and subtle enough as those things go.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt georgia; text-align: left; '>Loved it to pieces. God bless Zhang Yimou for saving Jet Li from horrible American action flicks (even if only temporarily). And Donnie Yen is a superhero!</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>Oops, I stand corrected. Guess I didn't pay too much attention to it. Still, I think it would be more powerful if they left it out.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Didn't Mirimax fund the prodution of this film? I thought that's what I saw at the beginning (not just that they brought it over)</div>