Black Friday hardware sales, DS sets record sales

[Julius Seeker]

I seriously think that the DS has the potential to be the first system to reach the 200 million mark. Being the first to 150 million is already a foregone conclusion. 250 million? That would be roughly double.

Anyway:

DS 1 million+
Wii 550K
PS3 440K
Xbox 360 250K
(the official statement was "double last week, so that's the PR friendly way of saying 250K as US sales last week were probably about 125K when considering VG Chartz' North American figure of 146K).

Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft report

Last year the DS was one of two systems which broke the PS2's previous record, and sold 780,000. This year's number is significantly higher, to the level of insanity. 550K is disappointing for the Wii, last year it sold 800K, so this year marks a significant drop. The Xbox 360 is also down significantly as it sold 400K last year, but PS3 is way way WAY up after selling ~100K last year and taking a distant last place.

Total sales between the four main systems equaled ~2.25 million. Not bad for the first week of the biggest sales month of the year in the US. Factoring in European sales, Wii and DS sold 350K a piece last year (~30% increase for DS and 15% increase for the Wii) and probably sold 450K and 400K this week based on that. So that would be 950K for the Wii and ~1.5 million for the DS, with Japanese figures of 140K for DS and 30K for Wii, 980K for Wii and 1.65 million for DS.

For the other systems, PS3 sold 15% higher on sales of 190K with an additional 30K from Japan for an estimate of 260K extra this week. and Xbox 360 sold 5% higher on sales of 135K with no significant Japan sales.

DS = 1.65 million
Wii = 980K
PS3 = 700K
Xbox 360 = 400K

VG Chartz should have their figures on Thursday which is where I got my data to make these estimates. But what I have posted are the numbers that I say we will see worldwide for the week, give or take 10%. I guarantee! Muahahahaha

[SineSwiper]

Apples and oranges, Seek.

[Julius Seeker]

Apples and oranges, Seek.

Yes, if I were interesed in quoting the sales of popular fruit, rather than videogame systems, I am sure apples and oranges would both appear on the list.

[SineSwiper]

You're comparing the DS, a portable gaming system, with home-based consoles. They are two totally different price ranges, different purposes, and different capabilities.

Gee? Something cheaper than all three consoles and with a pretty tight hold on the portable monopoly is making money? Who would have thunkit?

Also, where the hell are you getting PS3 being that much higher than the 360? Does Japan have that huge a market share to compensate for the PS3's shitty sales in the States? (Granted, they are gamer-insane Japanese, but I thought we pretty much equaled the market of Japan at this point.)

EDIT: Yeah, US stomps on Japanese market share now. We've grown since 10-20 years ago. And the numbers look off. X360 and PS3 are nearly equal now. People might be buying more PS3 in the last few months, but that's because people are moving towards a 2nd console.

And where are you getting anything close to 200 million? VGChartz has the DS at 65 million or so.

[Don]

I was under the impression that Japanese pretty much won't buy an XBox 360 so that's probably why the numbers even look somewhat balanced worldwide right now.

[Eric]

I was under the impression that Japanese pretty much won't buy an XBox 360 so that's probably why the numbers even look somewhat balanced worldwide right now.

This.

[Kupek]

Sine, it depends on the question you're asking. No one's trying to win a contest, just understand the market. And depending on what you're looking at, you can lump handhelds and consoles together: they both are means to play videogames. For example, the fact that DQ9 is on the DS indicates a shift in Japanese gaming from consoles to handhelds.

[Zeus]

I was under the impression that Japanese pretty much won't buy an XBox 360 so that's probably why the numbers even look somewhat balanced worldwide right now.

This.

You guys can't be implying that the 360 would have a substantial worldwide lead if the Japanese didn't shun it, could you?

American LTD console sales: http://vgchartz.com/hwtable.php?cons[]= ... &end=40139

Worldwide less America and Japan LTD console sales: http://vgchartz.com/hwtable.php?cons[]= ... &end=40139

[Zeus]

And where are you getting anything close to 200 million? VGChartz has the DS at 65 million or so.

Or 114M

Lifetime worldwide DS sales: http://vgchartz.com/hwtable.php?cons[]= ... &end=40139

[SineSwiper]

Or 114M

Was looking at the graphs, but didn't go back far enough.

You guys can't be implying that the 360 would have a substantial worldwide lead if the Japanese didn't shun it, could you?

...

Just goes to show that Japan really doesn't matter any more. Can't believe the lack of market share they have now.

Total consoles
America = 56.1M
Japan = 13.8M
Rest of World = 47.8M

That's like a 4:1 ratio for US:Japan. If these Japanese companies were smart, they would stop catering to their own base and try to develop more western games. After all, even if a game tanks in Japan and does well here, they are still going to be making a ton of money. And the Japanese will just have to suck down the new world order, as more western games come into play.

Of course, it's a matter of whether their greed can overtake their xenophobia. It'll probably be a cold day in hell before Japan releases a good FPS.

Sine, it depends on the question you're asking. No one's trying to win a contest, just understand the market. And depending on what you're looking at, you can lump handhelds and consoles together: they both are means to play videogames. For example, the fact that DQ9 is on the DS indicates a shift in Japanese gaming from consoles to handhelds.

Actually, that's a perfect example to prove my point above. DQ9 is a very Japanese-style game with much less of an appeal in the US. There is likely a shift to move these type of games to the handheld because they are cheaper to make on the handheld, and the cheaper game price has the potential for greater profits than if it was release on console.

That's not to say that it would bomb in the US if it was released on the console, but the development cost wouldn't be worth the smaller profits.

[Zeus]

There's actually been a "call to crisis" of sorts with many of the big game development people in Japan regarding their lessening importance, particularly over the last few years. It's no secret that Kojima looks to the West for inspiration and his games cater far more to us than the Japs. Hell, Inafune (in case you don't know who he is, he created Mega Man, Lost Planet, and Dead Rising) actually stood up at this year's TGS and spoke on how the Japanese need to get their heads out of their asses and start catching up to the rest of the world they've fallen so far behind. Capcom's current-gen increase in focus on the West with their star developer at the helm (Infaune is almost Miyamoto-like at Capcom as a general overseer of all games) helps prove his beliefs.

The Japanese (and really, all oriental) general societal xenophobia towards the rest of the world is making them blind to this. They are stubborn and will take a very, very long time before they realize how far behind they are and, by extension, insignificant they will become to the overall gaming landscape. Had anyone said this during the SNES or even PSX/N64 days you woulda laughed. But now it's just reality.

[Julius Seeker]

Ironically, the DS happens to be a Japanese gaming system. The system with the lowest sales for the week of the four systems quoted, was the sole American system.

I am not sure how this developed into a Japanese vs. Western games thing. Either way, again, you are demanding that a successful and growing industry should change to mimic an industry that is full of problems and financial failure.

The vast majority of the top selling games this generation are Japanese rather than Western. The consumers of the Western markets seem to find Japanese games fairly appealing.

Japanese developers (barring Sony) are all profitable.

By comparison, Western developers are dropping off like flies (see Eidos, Pandemic, Atari, Midway, Crystal Dynamics, Free Radical Design, etc....), or losing huge amounts of money - THQ = 430 million dollars in red ink, Electronic Arts created a bottomless pit of profit loss last year at over 1 billion.

The bottom line is that it isn't rational to say that an industry that makes billions in profits should change to emulate an industry which loses billions and is full of holes; the 6 foot deep kind.

As for Dragon Quest. Development costs were probably a supporting point in the consideration. The DS is the top gaming system, it is fairly obvious that Enix decided to release the game on the DS because of that. Wii is projected to be the leading system later on, that is why Enix has announced Dragon Quest X on the Wii.

[SineSwiper]

Seeker, you're ignoring the numbers. Much more of the rest of the world own consoles than the Japanese. It's 15M compared to over 100M. And no, not everybody is diving into the pure Japanese gaming. Games like Katamari are exceptions that prove the rule.

I think it's part of the reason why Nintendo first-party is stuck with their standard IPs. Everybody likes Mario and Zelda and Metroid, but Nintendo doesn't know how to create another IP that appeals to everybody, because at their core, they are a very Japanese company.

Meanwhile, American markets are gaining traction. Games like Halo, Splinter Cell, Call of Duty, Bioshock, Left 4 Dead are huge in the US and Europe, even if they don't appeal to Japanese audiences. Why are they huge despite this? Because the Japanese market doesn't matter anymore.

Yes, there are developers that go bust, but there are always developers in all parts of the world that go bust. There are also a lot more Western developers than Japanese, so the number of companies that are in the red is offset.

[Julius Seeker]

Seeker, you're ignoring the numbers

Then lets look at some numbers.

First of all, I am ignoring your market numbers. The fact that they are incorrect are not even the reason (There are nearly 30 million DS systems alone in Japan), but also because they are not relevant. The Japanese market's sales are not 100% in the Japanese market. This is a huge falacy for you to assume that.

I am also going to call you out on the fact that you brought up as your sole example of a franchise which is an exception to your rule was the niche franchise Katamari. To me this is just further evidence that you are ignoring the numbers beyond what is on your own videogame shelf.

While, yes, a big part of Nintendo is their traditional franchises, they also are a huge example of their growth. Mario Kart from last gen to this gen rose from 10 million to over 30 million, and that is just two games this gen. The Mario franchise has also risen to over 30 million this generation from numbers around 10 million last generation.

The new franchises that Nintendo, by your estimation, that Nintendo hasn't been making have also been selling incredibly well. Wii Sports is a new franchise which has 60 million under its belt; Wii Fit also has sold 26 million, and that franchise cost above an average of 100 USD.

So lets see with new franchises:
Wii Fit: 26 million
Bioshock: 2.4 million
Left 4 Dead: 3 million

I'll also make a note of the publishers: EA lost 1 billion dollars last fiscal, Nintendo gained 5.6 billion last fiscal.

You have Halo mentioned which sold a whopping 10 million, but GTA San Andreas sold 18 million last generation.

You also brought up Splinter Cell, described as an example of how Western developers are gaining traction. The sole release of Splinter Cell this generation only managed 1.15M.


Bottom line is the raw numbers prove that the Japanese industry is thriving. Sega, Nintendo, Capcom, Namco, Square-Enix, and others are all turning massive revenues and profits. This isn't seen by the top Western companies, Take 2 has declined significantly from last gen, THQ, Ubisoft, and EA are reporting losses, and only Vivendi (Call of Duty) has really shown much growth.

So why should the Japanese companies emulate western companies again?

[Eric]

Oh come on Seek, that's BS and you know it.

Wii Sports was bundled with the bloody console, Wii Sports is to the Wii what Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt were to the NES.

You can hardly make an argument for Japanese developers based on this one game based on the circumstances around why it sold in the first place.

[Julius Seeker]

Oh come on Seek, that's BS and you know it.

Wii Sports was bundled with the bloody console, Wii Sports is to the Wii what Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt were to the NES.

You can hardly make an argument for Japanese developers based on this one game based on the circumstances around why it sold in the first place.

Wii Sports was not my only point, it was one of several points I made in my last post; and a very good one.

It is a fact that Wii Sports generated a lot of revenue for the industry by pushing millions of systems and selling an additional 10 million separate units between the two games. It has not only proven to be a major system seller, but has convinced both Sony and Microsoft to develop their own imitations for release next year. Remember E3 last year? It was the center of Sony and Microsoft's presentations.

[Julius Seeker]

DS = 1.65 million
Wii = 980K
PS3 = 700K
Xbox 360 = 400K

VG Chartz should have their figures on Thursday which is where I got my data to make these estimates. But what I have posted are the numbers that I say we will see worldwide for the week, give or take 10%. I guarantee! Muahahahaha

Numbers are in!

As I guaranteed, I hit close to the bullseye =)

DS - 1700K (50K off)
Wii - 1060K (80K off)
PS3 - 760K (60K off)
360 - 470K (70K off)

Total system predicted = 3.73 million
Actual number = 3.99 million

[SineSwiper]

So lets see with new franchises:
Wii Fit: 26 million
Bioshock: 2.4 million
Left 4 Dead: 3 million

Wii Fit isn't a game. It's a exercise platform. Is that your only example? Here's a list of the top Wii games for reference. The only thing with a new IP is some Carnival Games thing, which for some reason got 3.5M, and it's from an American publisher.

If you look at all current consoles, the leaders are Halo 3, CoD4, GTA4, CoD:World at War, Gears of War, CoD:MW2, GoW2, Assassin's Creed, MGS4. (If we want to include PCs, I could throw WoW in there, too. With the expansion. And the other expansion. And the Sims with their various sequels. And MS Flight Simulator, Age of Empires, and Half Life 2.)

American, American, American, American. So, it's not until we get about 10 deep before we hit a Japanese game, and the creator even admitted that MGS4 was a very Westernized game.

Yes, I purposely excluded the Wii Sports and Mario/Zelda games, because it's proves my point that besides the IP that already has enough of a reputation in the States/Europe, they can't create a new game that makes the sales for Western audiences. Even stuff like DQ8 only did 5m, and FF12 at 5.7m. Gears of War would already be surpassing those figures.

I'll also make a note of the publishers: EA lost 1 billion dollars last fiscal, Nintendo gained 5.6 billion last fiscal.

One unbiased comparison is not very scientific, no?

Nintendo has been making money over the Wii console and their Mario games. I'm not disputing that. However, Nintendo, again, can't get past their narrow vision of casual sports games and Mario/Zelda games, because they don't make the money. I think the fact that they released Wii Resort proves that they are milking that cash cow for all that it's worth.

You have Halo mentioned which sold a whopping 10 million, but GTA San Andreas sold 18 million last generation.

Hmmm, and both are American games. Your point?

Halo's combined game sales for this generation (with Halo Wars, OSDT, etc.) made about 14m, and GTA4 made 13m.

Bottom line is the raw numbers prove that the Japanese industry is thriving. Sega, Nintendo, Capcom, Namco, Square-Enix, and others are all turning massive revenues and profits. This isn't seen by the top Western companies, Take 2 has declined significantly from last gen, THQ, Ubisoft, and EA are reporting losses, and only Vivendi (Call of Duty) has really shown much growth.

Sega's still burying Sonic into the ground, with only a combined Sonic/Mario sports game with any real sales.

Nintendo, I explained above.

Capcom has been reselling GTA games, along with RE5 at 5m, a Western FPS Lost Planet at 1.8m, and Dead Rising at 1.7m.

Namco has nothing to show for itself for the current generation, besides some PSP games, the biggest one being a 1.1m Ridge Racer. Its Bandai division has Soul Calibre 4 at 2.3m, and some Wii games nobody has ever heard of.

Square-Enix has been reselling Call of Duty games and Batman, and have yet to produce a FF/DQ game on the current consoles. The only thing close is Crisis Core on the PSP at 2.2m, and as it was mentioned, DQ9 to be on the DS.

So why should the Japanese companies emulate western companies again?

Except for Mario and certain existing IP like Resident Evil and Soul Calibre, the Japanese aren't producing the top hits, anymore. The fact that several Japanese companies are surviving by reselling Western games is VERY telling.

Company profit margins contain too many variables: CEO salaries, waste, development costs, etc., etc. Sales are the only true gauge of how popular the games are.

I believe I made my point. I have nothing more to argue on the matter. Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but wasting any more time arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.

[SineSwiper]

It'll probably be a cold day in hell before Japan releases a good FPS.

Interesting that Lost Planet is about a cold hellish planet. Did not know that it was Capcom until I researched it.

[Mental]

I was under the impression that Japanese pretty much won't buy an XBox 360 so that's probably why the numbers even look somewhat balanced worldwide right now.

This.

Actually the 360 is doing way better in Japan than any other American console ever has, I think. The Japanese have a rather xenophobic attitude towards foreign electronics (and given how good they are at electronics, I understand why).

The 360 actually beat the PS3 one week in sales in Japan, which is kind of like Woody Allen beating up a sumo wrestler for how well our shit usually does over there.

[Eric]

I was under the impression that Japanese pretty much won't buy an XBox 360 so that's probably why the numbers even look somewhat balanced worldwide right now.

This.

Actually the 360 is doing way better in Japan than any other American console ever has, I think. The Japanese have a rather xenophobic attitude towards foreign electronics (and given how good they are at electronics, I understand why).

The 360 actually beat the PS3 one week in sales in Japan, which is kind of like Woody Allen beating up a sumo wrestler for how well our shit usually does over there.

That's because some RPG that was supposed to be on the PS3 somehow ended up on the X-Box 360, Star Ocean or Tales of something or another, long story short is that it sold a system or two.

The funny part is that they're being ported to the PS3 now, and the Japanese developers are talking about how they're gonna make a profit with the payoff Microsoft gave them to port it to the PS3 and actually sell copies.

[Julius Seeker]

Sine, brick wall huh? Luckily your arguments have the strength of a straw wall, poorly constructed and very easy to blow down.

1. Wii Fit is not a game? Despite the fact that it rated by ESRB which rates only games, on all gaming sales charts, rated by all major gaming review sources, and is in fact, played? Most importantly, it contributes greatly to the revenue of the gaming industry.

2. Is Wii Fit the only example of a successful new Nintendo franchise his generation? No, but it was more than sufficient to prove the point. Others include:
1) Brain Age - 41.96 million
2) Mario vs Sonic Olympics - 13.34 million (This is a Sega title, but licensed by Nintendo)
3) Nintendogs - 22.98 million
4) Professor Layton - 6.86 million
5) Wii Sports - Nearly 50 million shipped, 10 million sold separately

3. On that list of 15 or so titles after you mentioned and labeled as American, none of those are new this generation with the exceptions of Assassins Creed and Gears of War; I will note you labeled them all as American, and Assassin's Creed is Canadian/French. You also mentioned MGS4 and GTA which are also non-American.

4. MGS4 is a western title? From what I understand it is still a third person stealth action title heavy on story. That's very Japanese, that genre dates back to the 80's and didn't appear in the west until last generation.

5. Did you really exclude traditional Nintendo titles because it proves your point? Considering you are comparing them to old Western franchises, it looks like exclude them because it disproves your point.

6. About quoting Nintendo and EA profits, what other profits would you have me quote when discussing Nintendo and EA games?

7. My point on Halo vs GTA SA titles were that the top Western game is lower this gen than the top selling last gen. Also, GTA is not American, it is from the UK. It was developed by Rockstar North, a former second party developer of Nintendo located in the UK.

8. Halo and GTA's combined sales of 27 million are lower this gen, than GTA's alone last generation with 44 million sold on the PS2 alone.

9. Profits are not important? Without profits, as I mentioned above, companies go bankrupt, and the largest ones shrink. Profits are the key number that measures the success of a company; in other words, the greater a company's profit, the greater its success; when it is not profitable, it is not a successful company.

10. Square Enix on DS has actually sold 8.85 million Dragon Quest titles, and 6.63 millionFinal Fantasy titles.




Again, the bottom line is the Japanese industry is doing better than the American industry. My point still stands, it would be utterly foolish for the Japanese companies to instead change their successful formula, and instead emulate the formula of a much less successful American companies.

[Mental]

The funny part is that they're being ported to the PS3 now, and the Japanese developers are talking about how they're gonna make a profit with the payoff Microsoft gave them to port it to the PS3 and actually sell copies.

Welcome to Japanese business. The militarism of Japan turned economic after the war and infested the private sector.

Their conception of honor in business is...different. And the 360 has global distribution...the PS3 finally sold a lot of units, but only in Japan. The U.S. is still sketchy on that AFAIK, and I think the rest of the world just kind of went "Six hundred dollar console! We could feed a family of sixty-seven for a year for that. No dice."

But, RPGs do well in Japan, and in general game developers have limited social skills (and worse tact). Just look at me!

[Don]

Blizzard ended up licensing Diablo 2 to Capcom as a distributor. That right there says a lot about the attitude, since I really doubt localization would be a problem that requires experts to do. Heck, you can probably have Diablo 2 in a foreign language and it wouldn't be that much harder to play!

[Zeus]

It'll probably be a cold day in hell before Japan releases a good FPS.

Interesting that Lost Planet is about a cold hellish planet. Did not know that it was Capcom until I researched it.

And who was behind Lost Planet (and Dead Rising)? Inafune. He practically forced Capcom to make that game knowing the Japanese market was dying and now he's their general overseer of all games.

[SineSwiper]

And who was behind Lost Planet (and Dead Rising)? Inafune. He practically forced Capcom to make that game knowing the Japanese market was dying and now he's their general overseer of all games.

Good move on Capcom's part. Megaman's a dying IP and Resident Evil was only saved by a reinvention of the genre on RE4. Plus their involvement in distribution of GTA and WoW.

Without all of that, it would have put Capcom in the red. It's too bad that the only one who doesn't see that is the raving Nintendo fanboy. (There's so much wrong with his reply that it would be a waste of bytes to pick it apart.)

The Japanese cannot create games without at least understanding if the West is going to buy it. If it's one of those games with a strictly Japanese appeal, it will fall flat.

[Zeus]

You know what other Jap company has always had a good focus on the West? Nintendo. Ever since Arakawa and Lincoln proved back in the NES days how much money can be made here, Nintendo has never neglected this market. Does it affect their development? Not really, nothing really does. They have always had that "if we build it they will come" mentality. But they definitely know this market well and they are the gaming Disney when it comes to marketing their stuff to their fanbase effectively. That comes to understanding that fanbase.

Only now do you see other Jap companies starting to shift their focus, like Wada declaring not too long ago that Squeenix will refocus to a more "worldwide" view of development. But it's taken a very long time and their market reaching a very distant third before they woke up a little. Their xenophobic tendencies will punish them for the next little while IMO

And I told you a while ago, Seek just talks out of his ass all the time. The few times he does make a good point, reply. Otherwise, just ignore the guy, it ain't worth it.

[Julius Seeker]

It's too bad that the only one who doesn't see that is the raving Nintendo fanboy.

It's too bad that I look at facts to understand the industry rather than conjecture?

Whether you call me a "raving Nintendo fanboy" or not isn't going to change the facts that I have been posting this whole time.

It is not going to change the fact that:
-Japanese produced videogame products dominate.
-The Japanese industry is larger on the worldwide market this gen than last gen.
-Western companies have suffered this generation, even when they were thriving last generation and the generation before.

No amount of conjecture, or arguing against arguments that no one has been making, is going to change fact. You can piss all you want, and pull on hairs, but in the end, facts are facts, and your arguments fall flat in the face of fact.

[SineSwiper]

You know what other Jap company has always had a good focus on the West? Nintendo. Ever since Arakawa and Lincoln proved back in the NES days how much money can be made here, Nintendo has never neglected this market. Does it affect their development? Not really, nothing really does. They have always had that "if we build it they will come" mentality. But they definitely know this market well and they are the gaming Disney when it comes to marketing their stuff to their fanbase effectively. That comes to understanding that fanbase.

Perhaps, but I think Nintendo is pretty scared about creating new IP. They keep milking the Mario/Zelda/Metroid for all that it's worth. The only new thing is the casual gaming market, and now that they know that it's making them stinking rich, they are milking that one, too. Hell, Metroid 3, one of their darker and more hardcore series, only made 1.54m. I think they put out that Metroid Prime: Trilogy just to try to gain some more money, but that only gave them a half-million in sales.

Compare that to the eight-digit figures (which Seeker has been touting around) the casual games have been making. Even Mario is merging with the casual games: Mario Kart, Mario & Sonic, Mario Party.

It's like the boy bands are invading the airwaves of radio. Nintendo hasn't "understood" their fanbase. They just found a new one that provides them more money.

[Zeus]

It's like the boy bands are invading the airwaves of radio. Nintendo hasn't "understood" their fanbase. They just found a new one that provides them more money.

Yet in the first 19 months of the Wii's lifecycle, we saw the following first-party titles released:

Zelda Twilight
Metroid Prime 3
Wario Ware Smooth Moves
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros Brawl
Super Paper Mario

Hell, in the first 12 months we saw the US Holy Trinity of Mario, Zelda, and Metroid released. No Nintendo system has ever had that kind of early release schedule to please their fanbase.

And every single one of these games is for the "Nintendo hardcore" and all but maybe Wario Ware and Super Mario Galaxy can be considered "hardcore"-only releases (but they do appeal to those hardcore). So it's not like they've forgotten their fanbase and don't understand what they want. They gave them everything they could possible want, all early on. That was actually one of the problems, they blew their load all at the beginning of the cycle which is why there's been such a shortage for the last year and a bit.

So yes, their biggest titles have been their new "casual" titles and we've hardly seen anything for the "Nintendo hardcore" since Smash Bros up until the release of New Super Mario Bros Wii (I've purposefully left out Mario Kart Wii 'cause even though that's a hardcore franchise, that particular title is not). But that sure as hell don't mean they have ignored their long-time fans. They sure as hell have not.

And that's before we even start talking about the DS which may just be the most "hardcore"-friendly system around. We may have the tendency to separate handhelds from consoles but a game is a game and there have been tons of new and old in every genre on that system.

New IPs? No, they really haven't had any hardcore ones, just casual ones. But ain't no Nintendo fan gonna complain 'bout that if they keep getting excellent, new titles in the innumerable franchises they already had. Nintendo seems to be more about resurrecting old "hardcore" franchises than making new ones, kinda like other Jap companies like Konami and Capcom. Again, ain't nothin' wrong wit dat if the games are great. And for the most part, the remakes have been pretty damned solid. Everyone loved Contra Rebirth, Bionic Commando Re-Armed, and Punch Out.

[SineSwiper]

True, but look at what makes them money. I think Nintendo "blew their load" at the beginning of the console because they realized that making core titles (I hate the term "hardcore") costs them millions of dollars. Sure, they make 1-2 million in sales and turn a profit, but if they make a casual title, it turns a ton more money in profit.

Even the other consoles are introducing their casual gaming toys. Whether that will change their perception of their fanbase remains to be seen, but if they are getting the same types of profits as Nintendo for these things, Microsoft sure as hell would drop their original audience for hundreds of millions of dollars. Then we'll see the HARDWARE change to match the software, and it's all over. If a console is not designed with core gaming in mind, then the core titles will not come. (Just look at the Wii versus other consoles.)

And the DS has most developers on board, so of course it's core friendly. It also has casual crap like Nintendogs on it, too.

[Zeus]

True, but look at what makes them money. I think Nintendo "blew their load" at the beginning of the console because they realized that making core titles (I hate the term "hardcore") costs them millions of dollars. Sure, they make 1-2 million in sales and turn a profit, but if they make a casual title, it turns a ton more money in profit.

Even the other consoles are introducing their casual gaming toys. Whether that will change their perception of their fanbase remains to be seen, but if they are getting the same types of profits as Nintendo for these things, Microsoft sure as hell would drop their original audience for hundreds of millions of dollars. Then we'll see the HARDWARE change to match the software, and it's all over. If a console is not designed with core gaming in mind, then the core titles will not come. (Just look at the Wii versus other consoles.)

And the DS has most developers on board, so of course it's core friendly. It also has casual crap like Nintendogs on it, too.

You seem to assume that Nintendo's casual titles and the unreal success they've had is somehow taking away from the release of "core" titles. It's not in any way, that's what I've been trying to say all along. There was more "core" titles from Nintendo in the first 19 months of the Wii's lifecycle than there was in the entire 5-year lifecycle of the 'Cube. They're not only giving me everything I could possibly want to play from them but they're also giving my mother, sister, father-in-law, and grandmother something to play. How the hell is this a bad thing? And I've even got a new Mario and Zelda game coming in the next year or so (Mario for sure next Xmas, Zelda maybe). That would make two Mario and two Zelda games within 4 years of the system's release. Not even the SNES had that kind of release schedule from the parent company (the NES did though).

Do you honestly think that any of the 3 companies would ever forget about the core gamer? They're not stupid, they like money. We may be only 15-20% of the market but we make up 60%+ of the sales. There's no chance they'll leave that cash cow behind. Will they make changes to the hardware to suit some of these casual games? Sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be at the expense of the core titles. The Wii has proven that with the Classic Controller and Gamecube controller ports as options developers can use anytime. Smash Bros is as core as it gets on any system and there was zero compromise in that title. In fact, it was easily the best game in the series and a huge fanservice game.

If anything, of all the hardware manufacturers, Sony has left behind their core gamer. They had a very, very scarce release schedule, particularly for exclusives, for the first two years and only in the last 6 months or so have they finally caught up. They were giving very little to the "core" gamer other than an overpaid paperweight (or Blu-Ray player; same dif). They're starting to make up for it a bit now but man, it took over 3 years.

The Wii's lack of core titles from every company not named Nintendo (well, Sega has certainly been giving it the good 'ol college try with Conduit, House of the Dead, and Madworld) was actually for the same reason that you and all Nintendo haters keep bitching without merit: perception. But it was the perception and short-sightedness of the publishers and developers that cause the lack of core titles. Sure, the lack of processing power and HD also helped since at that time it was still all about the sexy horsepower. But all of the major publishers, in particular Ubisoft, Activision, and EA (the biggest ones), have come out and said "we fucked up, we shoulda known better". They're trying to catch up a bit with titles like Red Steel 2 and Dead Space Extraction but it's already too late. The 15+ year old perception of Nintendo not being a "hardcore" machine in any way was just strengthened by the bashers and a huge can of gas was thrown on the fire with the waggle controls.

Also, where's the love for the VC? Nintendo has provided BY FAR the greatest number of downloadable releases for by far the most fair and consistent pricing. Did you see them jack up the price of Super Mario RPG just because it was a premium title? Nope, it was $8 just like every other domestic SNES release like Super Mario World, Super Metroid, or Actraiser. There's no bullshit last-minute jack-up of the price like there was with Braid (I don't care if it was worth it the money or not, that's not the point). And VC releases are almost solely for the core audience who grew up playing those games but can't anymore since the advent of Ebay destroyed any chances of finding copies at a reasonable price. Yes, it's almost exclusively re-releases and remakes with only a few notable original titles on Wiiware (like MM9, LostWinds, and World of Goo) but you cannot discount the relative awesomeness of the library on the VC.

And if the DS has proven anything is that you can easily have a Wii60 system that pleases everyone equally. All you need is for people to make the games for it. For every Nintendogs there's a Devil Survivor, for every Pokemon an Atlus RPG. Then there's the Professor Layton games that are equally appealing to everyone...and that's before we even start talking about the remakes and releases. There is absolutely everything for everyone in every possible genre on that system. It's impossible to criticize the breadth of titles on that system. Doing so only proves ignorance.

[SineSwiper]

You seem to assume that Nintendo's casual titles and the unreal success they've had is somehow taking away from the release of "core" titles. It's not in any way, that's what I've been trying to say all along. There was more "core" titles from Nintendo in the first 19 months of the Wii's lifecycle than there was in the entire 5-year lifecycle of the 'Cube.

See? There's your problem. You're comparing Nintendo with Nintendo and saying that they are making the core titles. Look at the 360 or PS3. The question isn't "What core titles are available for these systems?" The right question is "What ISN'T a core title on these systems?" These consoles have the right hardware for HD graphics, and they have controllers designed for core titles. Thus, all of the good developers have jumped on board with one of these two (or both, or both and PC).

We may be only 15-20% of the market but we make up 60%+ of the sales.

Prove that. The top NINE games for the Wii are casual titles: Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Mario Kart Wii, SSBB (debatable), Super Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports Resort, Mario & Sonic, Mario Party 8. Even if I took out Sports/Play and SSBB and SMG, that's still 63 million games in sales for a system with about 290 million in total game sales. From the top 25 (minus Wii Sports), I see only 17.5% in core title sales.

Just a quick glance of the top 25 games from 360 and Wii tells volumes on the percentages.

Smash Bros is as core as it gets on any system and there was zero compromise in that title. In fact, it was easily the best game in the series and a huge fanservice game.

Again, SSBB is "as core as it gets on any system"? Anything that people can pick up and mash buttons (even if it does or doesn't get the job done) with a kid friendly image is not a core title.

Try something like Bioshock. Dark, FPS, complex story. Left 4 Dead? Shadow Complex? GTA4? Even Street Fighter is more core than SSBB.

Sure, the lack of processing power and HD also helped since at that time it was still all about the sexy horsepower. But all of the major publishers, in particular Ubisoft, Activision, and EA (the biggest ones), have come out and said "we fucked up, we shoulda known better". They're trying to catch up a bit with titles like Red Steel 2 and Dead Space Extraction but it's already too late. The 15+ year old perception of Nintendo not being a "hardcore" machine in any way was just strengthened by the bashers and a huge can of gas was thrown on the fire with the waggle controls.

The lack of HD is HUGE! Games are not just about the games but as a showcase of what graphics can do nowadays.

And the controller, while a big hit for casual gamers, is indeed a failure for core players. It doesn't matter if there is some port for GameCube controllers in the back. The system doesn't come with one, and yes, that matters a great deal. Even the core gamers are going to try out a Wii with a waggle stick controller. They realize that they don't like it and so they sell back their system. I have heard of this happening with several friends, including myself. Hell, I bought the Wii from a friend who didn't want it and then gave it to my parents.

The perception has little to do with "bashers" and everything to do with their own PR campaigns. The commercials show casual gamers playing with Wii Fit or Wii Sports Resort. In those commercials, they are using the default controller. There is not some commercial of No More Heroes with people playing the GameCube controller. In fact, in the one (UK) commercial I could find, it has a stick controller at the end of the commercial as if to say "This is the controller you should be using".

The SSBB does not have any GameCube controllers, either. In fact, the nunchuck controllers are shown by the four players in the commercial. There is those two Japanese guys holding the stick controller as if to say "This is the controller you should be using".

You think the perception problem has to do with people on the Internet saying bad things about the system?!

Also, where's the love for the VC? Nintendo has provided BY FAR the greatest number of downloadable releases for by far the most fair and consistent pricing. Did you see them jack up the price of Super Mario RPG just because it was a premium title? Nope, it was $8 just like every other domestic SNES release like Super Mario World, Super Metroid, or Actraiser. There's no bullshit last-minute jack-up of the price like there was with Braid (I don't care if it was worth it the money or not, that's not the point). And VC releases are almost solely for the core audience who grew up playing those games but can't anymore since the advent of Ebay destroyed any chances of finding copies at a reasonable price.

Yeah, it's too bad the core audience already knows they can easily download an emulator and play those same titles on their PC.

That's the main problem with the VC: total lack of original titles. The 360 especially has really been a leader (maybe along with Steam) in providing original and cheap games on the XBLA.

There is absolutely everything for everyone in every possible genre on that system. It's impossible to criticize the breadth of titles on that system. Doing so only proves ignorance.

If 24 casual games and 1 core game equals "absolutely everything for everyone", then I guess that's technically true. Again, I've proven my point above.

[SineSwiper]

I just wanted to point out something. While the Spike Video Game Awards isn't exactly the end-all be-all award ceremony for video games, it is still a pretty good look at what games are out there as the best of the best.

There were about 50 or so awards total. Of those awards, the Wii only won a single award.

It was for the Best Wii Game award.

[Zeus]

I just wanted to point out something. While the Spike Video Game Awards isn't exactly the end-all be-all award ceremony for video games, it is still a pretty good look at what games are out there as the best of the best.

There were about 50 or so awards total. Of those awards, the Wii only won a single award.

It was for the Best Wii Game award.

That means zero. It's a pure popularity contest aimed at 18-30 year olds. It ain't a shock that the Wii is ignored