Whatever happened to the days when heroes were heroes and games made sense?

[Don]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>It seems to me nowadays games just strive to make less and less sense. Games nowaday are so caught up in making impossible plot twists. Plot twists are okay, but they should make sense. Sephiroth killing Aeris surprised me, but it fit his character and her death was foreshadowed when she went off by herself to try to stop Meteor. In today's game, it might be something like Sephiroth killed Aeris and revealed that he's her brother in a parallel universe that's in love with her but is being controlled by something from another parallel universe or whatever.

I'm finding myself reading spoilers so I know what games to avoid based on how the plot goes. Maybe it's just me, but I really hate it when there's a plot twist coming that doesn't make any sense and can't be forseened in any realistic way. To me that's the way of the game designer saying, "Ha, fooled you!". Story in games nowaday consist of 3 elements:

1. Pathetic losers complaining how much their life suck.
2. People dying for no good reason.
3. Plot twist that doesn't make any sense.

Story has become a game where the developer tries to outwit you because they're too lazy to come up with an actual good story. #1 is the good old tried-and-true Eva Shinji method where you make a character a complete loser which supposedly invokes pity and attachment to the character and make them human-like. In reality, all #1 has done is make you wonder what bunch of losers has assembled this time to save the world. Heroes don't have to be perfect, yes. They should have weakness, yes. But they should not be loser who should be in mental rehab as opposed to trying to save the world. Xenosaga comes to my mind as the worst offenders of this out of the big games that come out. Well, she's really not that bad, but it's similar to the Raiden/Snake thing. She has to live up to the shadow of Citan Uzuki and she's not remotely close to a heroic figure. I'd say Ziggy should've been the main character and Scion can be one of the many losers that tag along.

For #2, there used to be a time where death was a big thing and made a big impact in the story. Now death is just used to make things overly melodramatic and basically a cheap way to get some an emotional scene without having to actually make believable characters. As for #3, hmmm, I already talked about it, so guess that's all I have to say for now.</div>

[WooJin]

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>...I still don't see why you listed Xenosaga there.</div>

[WolfSamurai]

<div style='font: 14pt Agatha; text-align: left; '>Aaaah, and I was starting to miss these wonderful "Don hates everything" posts too.</div>

[Manshoon]

<div style='font: 14pt "Times New Roman"; text-align: left; '>OGT just wouldn't be the same without them. :P</div>

[EsquE]

<div style='font: italic 12pt "Times New Roman"; text-align: left; '><b>Link:</b> <a href="http://www.fatchicksinpartyhats.com">This shouldn't be so damn funny...</a>

...<i>you're going to have to give me more examples for me to really agree with you on this. I haven't played Xenosaga so I can't really argue that one. I can however take a look back at some of the major RPG's I've played in the past few years. While I can see where you're coming from, I don't fully agree. Plotlines have become more complicated in games, expanded in length and matured in subject matter. While this certainly has contribued to the death of the traditional hero, I don't think the new heroes are less admirable just because they aren't "perfect".

...I guess the best place to start is Final Fantasy VIII. Squall (he ignores the collective groan from the reading audience at the mention of that name) on the surface fits your profile, but I don't see it that way. Yes, he is cold and distant, not the best traits for a "hero" but it fits his story. He was raised to be a soldier, not to be a hero. He is not heroic because he saves the day and is a good leader; that's to be expected. His heroism arrives on an emotional level. Not a traditional hero, but one I can relate to. I've never liked the traditional heroes that do no wrong and save the day with a muscle flex and snappy banter. I don't relate to that. I related to Squall, I knew where he was coming from. I'm a spider-man/batman kinda guy...always thought Superman was a dick. It's about perspective. Just because a character may not fit a traditional role, it doesn't mean that character shouldn't exist. Change is good, and at the same time the past is still relevant. There's room for both.

...as for those plot twists, I have to agree with your point about that where FFVIII is concerned. The whole orphanage and sorceress threads never really made sense. Or, when I think about it, they weren't really finished. The theme of the game changed at the halfway point (Rinoa's coma) but the second half never really got fleshed out the way the first half (the war with the other garden, which rocked) did. It went from an interesting military and political plot to one of mysticism. The problem here went more to the game not being really finished story-wise as opposed to the writer trying to "fool" us. I'd really like to see FFVIII re-made properly, with a whole lot more added on to that second half explaing the orphanage (or just getting rid of it... it would've worked better if only Squall, Seifer and Ellone lived there), the succession of sorceresses and a real conclusion to Seifer's story. Well, at least nobody died...though I think it would have been more interesting if Rinoa had died, echoing Laguna's loss of Rinoa's mother...but that really would've been too fucking depressing...

...ok, Final Fantasy IX. Zidane rocked. He's kind of the best of both worlds. He's a true hero emotionally (selfless, upbeat) and a relatable hero physically ie. he isn't the ass-kicker Squall and Cloud were, making him relatable to the common man. And we have a plot that isn't full of too many twists (though it gets a bit weird at the end) and no major deaths. No wonder everyone liked it...although the card game sucked giant donkey balls...

...FFX also doesn't fit your complaints either (just proves that I've played too many Square RPG's too many times). Tidus is certainly a bit whiny, but not remotely disturbed. And there were no plot twists out of left field...it was actually a little too predictable for my tastes.

...what else? Chrono Cross? Nah, Serge is too simple. He fits into those past hero roles perfectly. Not a bloody peep out of him. And while there were some harsh plot twists, thosse are kind of to be expected when dealing with dimension tripping. Serge as a character was a bit behind the maturity of the plot if you ask me. He'd feel more comfortable in Chrono Trigger, where they kept things simple. All the fun of time travel with none of the major repercussions like dying from ancient diseases or stepping on a bug and destroying the ecosystem. Not that simple is bad, I'm just saying it shouldn't be the only thing.

...that leads me right to Dragon Warrior VII...another game you might like to try. Another bland hero, simple story and nothing over anyone's head. Don't get me wrong, I loved every minute of playing it. There is still a place for that kind of game, it's still relevant, but it certainly shouldn't be the "ideal".

...can't think of much else right now...and I really have a hard time typing when I've had a few beers. It's taken a heluva a long time to type this...anyway, time to sum up. There are certainly examples of what you're complaining about I'm sure, I won't deny it. But I also think most of the blame goes to writers not being focused as opposed to trying to make us feel dumb...no video game plot has never come close to making me feel dumb...these kind of storylines are new to those still making these games. With newer blood will come more of a focus and these types of mature and complex plots will be as tight as the old ones eventually became. Change is good, but beauty will always be in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't hurt though to take a step to the side now and them, and look at things from another angle...</i></div>

[Don]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Squall - Squall may have been a hero but he was no leader. The game would've been fine if they didn't keep on thrust him on the role of a leader, which he is completely incapable of. My problem with him was not so much that he's a loser/whiner/whatever but that somehow everyone looks up to him even though he's shown no reasons for people to look up to him. Although his leadership quality is certainly supposed to parallel that of Laguna, the attempt falls flat on its face. Laguna may be goofy but he comes off as a convincing leader. Squall might be the best soldier in SeeD but he's no leader. Storywise, I don't have too much complaints. It didn't flow logically but the game did not attempt to achieve its value through shock plot twists. The Orphanage might not be very believable, but you don't have to believe it to understand its underlying theme.

Zidane - I don't have much to say about Super Saiyan Zidane. He's a good example of why good old school stuff isn't always good. He may not have any obvious faults but that doesn't make him a good character. He's a generic hero at best.

Tidus - No complain here.

Serge - Serge has no personality to speak of. Cross as a whole didn't make any sense. Toward the Chronopolis part they're just spewing random facts out that are often meaningless. The whole Schala/Kid deal is just there to surprise you, nothing else. There is no logical way one can come to the conclusion that Kid is Schala. I'm not bitter because they fooled me. I'm bitter because I saw through that, and it only exposes how weak that plot twist is because despite knowing the outcome there's still no way to see it. The whole tie-in to Chrono Trigger is incredibly weak.

You missed Xenogears. I got Perfect Works for Xenogears and the background stuff they attempt to explain makes even less sense than the game itself. I think if you just look at the game itself it's not too bad. At some point it gets confusing but it's pretty straightforward, but looking at the background information, you can see that it was meant to make a lot less sense, and only lack of time/space got us a game that's actually coherent...

Square RPG hasn't been too bad on the weirdness scale, but the Xenogears/Cross line of games is pretty out there. Although I haven't been buying too many non Square RPG, Wild ARMS 2 come to my mind as one that didn't make much sense with its random scientific nonsense (We trapped Lord Blazer in the Event Horizon!). Not to say that old school games are any better, but so far the attempts to make a game not your generic old plot hasn't been exactly successful. I'm sure most people would agree that the best RPG for the DC and beyond era so far is either Final Fantasy X or Skies of Arcadia, and neither of these games relied on shock value from plot twist. FFX, however, does falter toward the end, most notably with how Seymour is supposed to have wiped out the Ronso people and really did not, and how Tidus's really didn't die which made the goodbye scene at the end completely meaningless.</div>

[WolfSamurai]

<div style='font: 14pt Agatha; text-align: left; '>OGT would be empty without them. :)</div>

[Derithian]

<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>On the 10 thing they pretty much all thought he would die....and he does if you don't sit throught the whole damn credits. And he rules because his main line is eh? and Ah? and uh?</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Still one of the best plots in any RPG. Yes, it started to get confusing, especially when things started to get explained (even before the 2nd disc). It's probably because things got explained so fast that it was sometimes hard to keep up with all of the plot twists, but there weren't any mindfucked-up plot twists, at least not any that would make me think that it's just a cheap trick in the plotline. Overall, it is a really good story, but the twists get pretty fast-paced, like say, LA Confidential. (I remember seeing that movie for the first time, and just barely getting the plot twists of the whole thing towards the end.)</div>

[Don]

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>There was a lot of crazy stuff they were trying to do but didn't do that was documented in XG Perfect Works. The whole Episode 6 stuff is just downright weird (Fei fighting at the end of time or something...). Good thing the game was unable to actually go into those in detail.</div>

[SineSwiper]

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>What is it? A book? A game?</div>