Megaman 9 confirmed for Wiiware...

[Zeus]

At least Castlevania tries to change up the story and gameplay quite a bit with each version. Mega Man just gets really stale.

For you, yes. But some of us are perfectly happy with it particularly when it's a $10 game.

And there was only Mega Man-level changes with the GBA Castlevania games (Circle, Harmony, and Aria).

[Julius Seeker]

Caslevania III is still my favourite formula.

[Don]

Megaman is not an evolutionary series. People just call it that to conveniently explain the fact that it has gone nowhere in 20 years because it's 'evolutionary'. If you talk from gameplay alone, then MM9 is a regression because you've eliminated a significant amount of the normal moveset that is standard to the Megaman world. While we don't need the duck or whatever latest crazy thing out there, not even having a dash/slide physically limits what you can even do.

Read the original notes on Z1 or X4 sometimes and they had some really good ideas until Capcom stepped and say nope can't do that, might hurt our ability to crank out more Megaman games in the future. In Z1 you're really supposed to kill the real Megaman X because he has turned into some kind of ruthless dictator in his extermination of anything that's considered an enemy of humanity. This was scrapped in the last moment because Capcom said kids might stop buying this game if their hero (Megaman X) turned out to be a bad guy, so at the last moment you had Ciel creating Copy X while she's playing around with Lego blocks while she was 4 instead.

In X4 the Repliforce pretty much represents the legacy the original Megaman left behind but they don't even dare mention the word "Megaman" (not Megaman X) because then they might actually have to answer question like 'what the heck happened to Megaman?' (presumably killed by Zero). Certainly this stuff is way better than what actually happened in the game, so why did we get a dumbed down version? Because it'd be hard to go back and make another Megaman game if you had to explain how he was killed.

This is also how you could have Zero totally die at the end of X5 and then hide himself in a cave and rebuilt himself in X6. For that matter we're not even sure if he really died in Z4. Certainly ZX series does not affirm this. Again the only reason I can think of is that they don't want to rule out the possibility of another Zero game.

At one point the Megaman series had a vision and a dream. Now all it has left is 'evolution' because Capcom sucked the dream out of it.

[Zeus]

Caslevania III is still my favourite formula.

Rondo (Drac X Chronicles) is a pretty good one too. Same with Castlevania 4.

It's irritating they've abandoned the platformer Castlevania games. But it would probably have ended up like Mega Man and everyone would just say "they're milking it".

Which they're actually doing now with the Metroidvania games

[Julius Seeker]

The thing I like about the third one is the multi-path thing.

[Zeus]

The thing I like about the third one is the multi-path thing.

You haven't played Rondo, have you? Of course not, it's on the PSP. How silly of me....

You have two paths, the "normal" path and the "special" path. Basically you can barrel through the game on the "normal" path just like any normal level of Castlevania platformers. But if you want to search around, you also get the "special" path through a different way to end each level (different bosses as well sometimes). There are things to find as well (such as an unlockable character in Maria and more stuff in the PSP version, such as Symphony) and in each level you also have fake "alternate" paths. So each level (there's only 7 in the game plus 4 "special" ones) also has alternate paths within it, kinda like #3 did just a little more.

It's not quite as big as #3 but it's an excellent platformer with some neat stuff to do in the game.

[Don]

There's a finite amount of good ideas so yes no matter what eventually a game will look more or less the same after its 15th incarnation, but with the Megaman series they're not even trying at all. It is exactly the same as what it was before.

[Zeus]

There's a finite amount of good ideas so yes no matter what eventually a game will look more or less the same after its 15th incarnation, but with the Megaman series they're not even trying at all. It is exactly the same as what it was before.

That's what the X, Zero, and ZX series' were supposed to be. This is just a one-off. It's not like they've never tried they're just going full retro on one

[Don]

There's a finite amount of good ideas so yes no matter what eventually a game will look more or less the same after its 15th incarnation, but with the Megaman series they're not even trying at all. It is exactly the same as what it was before.

That's what the X, Zero, and ZX series' were supposed to be. This is just a one-off. It's not like they've never tried they're just going full retro on one

The originally started as something different but innovation was quickly abandoned when it can potentially threaten the ability to crank out more generic Megaman games.

Perhaps ignorance is bliss here. Most people don't know how X4 or Z1 was gutted to ensure there's a continuity that fosters easy to create sequels. Both of these games originally had a pretty serious setting unlike most of the other Megaman games. It's supposed to make you think whether this fascist-like government run by the Hunters, and later Neo Arcadia, is really doing the right thing. You can see where Zero series retained some of the important parts like the usage of the word "retire". Actually for most of the X and Z series you're basically running wholesale genocide on dissidents in a dictatorship, and originally that was a key point of the game.

Ironically the easy to make sequels sure didn't sell very much to begin with because enough people figured it out nonetheless.

[SineSwiper]

And there was only Mega Man-level changes with the GBA Castlevania games (Circle, Harmony, and Aria).

Not true at all. Circle was made by a different company, and the card system was fairly unique. (It was also really fucking hard.) Harmony was closest to something like C:SotN. Aria was a lot different with the second character tagging along. Don't think I've really seen a platformer like that before, actually.

[Eric]

Ok, so how many of you actually bought it?

[Zeus]

Ok, so how many of you actually bought it?

(raises hand). My bud and I each got it. I debated for a while whether or not I would and hadn't really decided fully until last week (unlike BC:RA which I decided to get once I heard about it). But once I saw the reviews my Mega fanaticism took over and I got it (that and the fact that I had 1400 Wii points sitting there for the last 2 years). It's been everything as advertised and a great game as long as you don't long for sliding/dashing and charging up. I do wish charging was included but ain't that comin' for Protoman?

On a side note, that's something I find irritating. The day the game comes out they announce $8 worth of downloadable content. Yeah, so you fuckers didn't have that all ready to go and couldn't have easily included it in the download. It's like making the challenges from BC:RA downloadable. I fucking hate stupid nickle and diming like that particularly when it's stuff that could have and should have been included with the original.

Did you get it? You enjoying it?

[Julius Seeker]

I plan to get it this weekend. I haven't bought a Mega Man game since Mega Man 2.

The game is selling incredibly well for a download. It has 60,000 downloads in North America on Wiiware during its first day. In comparison, Braid sold 28,000 in its first 3 days.

[SineSwiper]

That's because everybody whined and bitched and moaned about five fucking dollars. Also, I'm disappointed with the amount of people here who didn't even finish Braid.

[Zeus]

That's because everybody whined and bitched and moaned about five fucking dollars. Also, I'm disappointed with the amount of people here who didn't even finish Braid.

For good reason. There's no reason for a game with that amount of gameplay to be afforded a premium price. If you look at amount of content and length of gameplay, Braid doesn't touch BC:RA yet it's 50% more. Heck, from what I know, it doesn't even touch Castle Crashers.

I'm all for great short games. One of my favourite games from last generation was Beyond Good and Evil which is an 8 hour game or so. Short but fucking spectacular. But if they had tried to charge me a premium for that game (say and extra $10 at retail) I would have been a little peeved.

I will say thing: it's intriguing enough and the demo was good enough that I'd probably get it at $10. It's one of the very few games on XBLA worth the standard $10 charge. The vast majority of games on Live IMO should be $5 to $7. Not even Pac-Man CE is worth the $10 they're asking for and it's one of the best downloadable games on any system

[SineSwiper]

Hell, I got all of the puzzle pieces and completed just about everything and it was actually quite a bit of gameplay. If you're still bored, do the challenge runs.

[Lox]

I need to finish Braid. I got it so my friend and I could solve the puzzles together so I've been waiting for that.

Braid is easily worth $15. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you cannot value a game on the amount of time put into it. Some games are just beautiful to play and are like artful masterpieces.

[Zeus]

I need to finish Braid. I got it so my friend and I could solve the puzzles together so I've been waiting for that.

Braid is easily worth $15. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you cannot value a game on the amount of time put into it. Some games are just beautiful to play and are like artful masterpieces.

I agree and BG&E is one of those for me. $30 for an 8 hour game and zero complaints.

The "lack of value" argument is due to 2 things: the premium price and the fact that it's only downloadable. As I've said many times before, I put a lower value on games that don't come on hard media. Even BC:RA, which I consider to be the best value for the price, is just worth the $10. But if it were on a disc? Easily worth $20 or even $25

[Julius Seeker]

Someetimes short games have incredible replay value. You're not just going to play Super Mario Brothers 3 or Soul Calibur just once.

I like short RPGs like the FFL games on Gameboy. Final Fantasy Legend 2, in particular, has incredible replayability.

[Zeus]

Someetimes short games have incredible replay value. You're not just going to play Super Mario Brothers 3 or Soul Calibur just once.

I like short RPGs like the FFL games on Gameboy. Final Fantasy Legend 2, in particular, has incredible replayability.

Fighting games are a different animal, they're meant to be played in short spurts. And SMB3 ain't short if you go through the game fully.

[Zeus]

Capcom is proving with MM9 that companies are not learning their lessons with respect to the nickel and diming microtransaction bullshit

http://wii.ign.com/articles/913/913122p1.html

The worst part about it is that when you download MM9 they actually take you to the "manual" screen before you start the game and in that screen they actually detail all of these downloadables. Which means they were most likely done before release. Basically, they should have been included in the original release but the greedy fucks decided to hold them back and charge for them.

This is exactly the type of microtransaction that needs to be eliminated. Bring Down the Sky is a perfect example of something you SHOULD pay for. It came out a while after the game and includes a decent amount of gameplay (and it's only 300 points right now so not too expensive). This stunt by Capcom is bullshit

[Don]

I think Capcom made a game called El Dorado Gate wayyyyyy back and it's like $40 per game per episode? Of course I've never heard of anybody buying even the first game so I'm guessing that didn't work out too well.

I don't think micropayment in itself is unreasonable, but seriously how hard can it be to program Protoman into Megaman 9? I saw the ending credits and they seem to have 20 people work on this game, including 4 guys on music. I'm willing to bet if 3 of the guys who worked on music do the programming instead, they could've had Protoman in... and yes that's with musicians programming even if the skillset is completely unrelated.

Something to think about though... if you look at the ending credit of Megaman 9, there are a lot of people on them. 20 might be too much but at least 10 people worked on the game for sure for something that should've been doable with about 3 guys. So I don't think the budget for this game is as low as you'd think it is since all these guys on the staff has to be paid. It's not like you get paid less for your time just because you're working on an older looking game.

[SineSwiper]

Capcom is proving with MM9 that companies are not learning their lessons with respect to the nickel and diming microtransaction bullshit

Actually, they are learning their "lesson" quite well: You fuckers will bitch about it, but still buy it anyway, because you are suckers for this shit. If Capcom sold a new costume for MegaMan that only changed the color from blue to red and it cost 1000 points, you people would STILL buy it.

[Zeus]

Capcom is proving with MM9 that companies are not learning their lessons with respect to the nickel and diming microtransaction bullshit

Actually, they are learning their "lesson" quite well: You fuckers will bitch about it, but still buy it anyway, because you are suckers for this shit. If Capcom sold a new costume for MegaMan that only changed the color from blue to red and it cost 1000 points, you people would STILL buy it.

You think I would pay for this fucking nickle and diming bullshit? No chance in hell. Even if I got the points for free I wouldn't get it. I got the game to play a new NES Mega Man game I've never played and they just barely got my money with the price they were charging. There's no fucking way I'm gonna give them almost double for this shit they should have included in the first place.

It's the same thing as when I buy a 360 game with multiplayer in it. I look at the value sans multi since I'll never play it and determine if it's worth it for me. In this case, a new NES MM game was worth it. This extra shit? NO fucking way. It's not like they're adding a whole new storyline for Protoman (for $2 I'd pay for that; Vile's storyline in Maverick Hunter was excellent and well worth going through the game again) or anything

[Zeus]

I think Capcom made a game called El Dorado Gate wayyyyyy back and it's like $40 per game per episode? Of course I've never heard of anybody buying even the first game so I'm guessing that didn't work out too well.

I don't think micropayment in itself is unreasonable, but seriously how hard can it be to program Protoman into Megaman 9? I saw the ending credits and they seem to have 20 people work on this game, including 4 guys on music. I'm willing to bet if 3 of the guys who worked on music do the programming instead, they could've had Protoman in... and yes that's with musicians programming even if the skillset is completely unrelated.

Something to think about though... if you look at the ending credit of Megaman 9, there are a lot of people on them. 20 might be too much but at least 10 people worked on the game for sure for something that should've been doable with about 3 guys. So I don't think the budget for this game is as low as you'd think it is since all these guys on the staff has to be paid. It's not like you get paid less for your time just because you're working on an older looking game.

I think you're missing the point: this shit was actually finished before the game was released. It's more they held it back or pulled it out to nickle and dime you and not because they couldn't get it in there in time. The first day you download it they say "here's the downloadable shit we're gonna screw for that should have been included in the first place".

It probably has less of a budget than GBA games did back in the day and those were notorious for being places to take risks since you didn't have to sell too many copies to make a profit. Taking into account there's FAR less distribution costs, it's an extremely low risk proposition for Capcom. Assume they get $5 out of each game, you'd only have to sell 50,000 copies to recoup what is doubtful to be more than a quarter mil development cost (don't think that all 20 of those people did this full time for a year or anything; you could consult for a day and get your name in the credits). They'll probably do that in the first week on the Wii version alone. Even more true considering there's little to no pre-design costs. It's playing on the built-in NES emulator on the Wii and is made using an existing game engine and existing character and level designs plus some new ones. There's no chance in hell this one cost more than a quarter mil.

Capcom is good at leveraging their franchises. This is a pretty solid move on their part. As a consumer and fan, I'd personally like to see more of them (hopefully a bit cheaper but I doubt it) if they're of the same quality. And they know that. They know their consumer base extremely well.

Of course, I'd much rather see them continue the PSP remakes on the XBLA as they were fucking incredible.

[Blotus]

Holy fuckin hell this game is hard. I tried four stages and didn't complete any of them.

[Don]

The ending credit list on MM9 looks as long as the Megaman games for the Zero series at least. I estimate a game's budget by its staff size since there's usually a pretty obvious correlation between that.

Protoman can slide and use the charged shot. So much for going back to good old gameplay.

[Don]

I saw someone clear the game and there are 73 people's name that showed up in the credit.

Even if you assume some of them might repeat (not like I bothered to check if a guy is responsible for more than one thing), that's a whole lot of people. I realize a lot of these are like 'marketng' or whatever but I assume if their name shows up that means that guy at least spend a significant time related to MM9.

The breakdown is roughly equal between Inticreates, Capcom Japan, and everything else.

[Julius Seeker]

I have no idea why people are whining about optional extras that cost 1 or 2 dollars more. No one is forcing you to buy these extra game modes. You can get the game, or you can get the game with the extras for a little more, it's really a very simple concept that isn't stabbing anyone in the back.

[Zeus]

Holy fuckin hell this game is hard. I tried four stages and didn't complete any of them.

Try Splash Woman's level first. It's a cakewalk and she's easy

[Zeus]

The ending credit list on MM9 looks as long as the Megaman games for the Zero series at least. I estimate a game's budget by its staff size since there's usually a pretty obvious correlation between that.

Protoman can slide and use the charged shot. So much for going back to good old gameplay.

IGN just but up a fuck lot more detail on the Protoman download. There's a lot more to it than just sliding and charging

http://wii.ign.com/articles/913/913727p1.html

Still should have been included in the original release rather than nickle and diming

[Zeus]

I have no idea why people are whining about optional extras that cost 1 or 2 dollars more. No one is forcing you to buy these extra game modes. You can get the game, or you can get the game with the extras for a little more, it's really a very simple concept that isn't stabbing anyone in the back.

It's because they were finished before the game was released. Basically, they were included in the original game design and taken out to nickel and dime the consumer. And on top of that they're not even adding any real extra content like, say, the Bring Down The Sky expansion for Mass Effect did. It's purely a way to fleece the consumer as much as possible, kind of like the horse armour in Oblivion which should just have been an unlockable

[Don]

I'm not seeing how 'taking double damage' and 'not being able to buy energy tanks' could have taken more than about 1 day to implement. If I had to guess, after the slide and the charged shot, the hardest part would be changing the icon of the 1ups.

[Julius Seeker]

I have no idea why people are whining about optional extras that cost 1 or 2 dollars more. No one is forcing you to buy these extra game modes. You can get the game, or you can get the game with the extras for a little more, it's really a very simple concept that isn't stabbing anyone in the back.

It's because they were finished before the game was released. Basically, they were included in the original game design and taken out to nickel and dime the consumer. And on top of that they're not even adding any real extra content like, say, the Bring Down The Sky expansion for Mass Effect did. It's purely a way to fleece the consumer as much as possible, kind of like the horse armour in Oblivion which should just have been an unlockable

I still see no problem. Who's putting the gun to your head and forcing you to buy this stuff? If people want it, they can buy it; if they don't, they don't have to.

[Zeus]

I'm not seeing how 'taking double damage' and 'not being able to buy energy tanks' could have taken more than about 1 day to implement. If I had to guess, after the slide and the charged shot, the hardest part would be changing the icon of the 1ups.

My point exactly

[Zeus]

I have no idea why people are whining about optional extras that cost 1 or 2 dollars more. No one is forcing you to buy these extra game modes. You can get the game, or you can get the game with the extras for a little more, it's really a very simple concept that isn't stabbing anyone in the back.

It's because they were finished before the game was released. Basically, they were included in the original game design and taken out to nickel and dime the consumer. And on top of that they're not even adding any real extra content like, say, the Bring Down The Sky expansion for Mass Effect did. It's purely a way to fleece the consumer as much as possible, kind of like the horse armour in Oblivion which should just have been an unlockable

I still see no problem. Who's putting the gun to your head and forcing you to buy this stuff? If people want it, they can buy it; if they don't, they don't have to.

Obviously. All i'm saying is that it should have been included with the original download to begin with since it was obviously planned with the original game and finished before release. It's WHY we have to pay for it that's the issue

[Julius Seeker]

Those extras are a product for sale, just like anything, you are not forced to buy it. It's a simple question of whether you want to pay 12 dollars for the version with Protoman, or 10 dollars for the version without. I see no reason to whine about that.

[Lox]

Looks like the PA guys like it...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/10/1/

[Julius Seeker]

It hit 140,000 sold for its first week on the Wiiare charts.

[Zeus]

Looks like the PA guys like it...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/10/1/

It's a very good MM NES title if you like that sort of thing. And Wily is HARD (and each of the 3 version is from another MM game, which is neat)

[Don]

Wily's only hard because you can't slide. All the pattern he uses are the ones that are normally evaded by sliding, except you can't slide. In fact that tracking spark pattern must have been used in at least 5 Megaman games already.

I read about the sales numbers but there are 70+ people on the credits for Megaman 9, which is more than any Megaman game I remember seeing, so I'm not sure if it's actually as much of a success as it looks. I view it more like they decided to sell out the Megaman franchise for 1.4 million dollars and end the possibility of it ever being anything beyond a money grabbing scheme.

[Kupek]

We've gone back and forth on this for months, so I doubt this will make a difference, but I'm going to try again: what I've read says that this game does have innovation, it's just in the level design. They stripped away all of the unnecessary (yes, I realize this is an arguable statement) mechanics and focused on creating innovative levels.

What I don't understand about your perspective, Don, is you don't seem to think that's a legitimate design decision.

[Don]

Except for $2 you get to buy a character that has the slide and charged shot, which is the cornerstone of the Megaman gameplay. So they're obviously not unnecessary if it's deemed worth selling it for $2 later.

It's more like you're being a purposely crippled version of the game for $10 that requires $2 so you can get the same advancements that existed 15 years ago. It'd be like playing the Zero or X series without a dash. You can still beat the game assuming the levels are redesigned to not require dash jumps to get through certain pits, but it'd be a crippled version of the gameplay that serves no reason whatsoever. You also have a very artifical pumping of difficulty via crippling gameplay. In Zero 3, Omega's 2nd form has an EX attack that is virtually undodgeable without dashing. Of course that's not a strange assumption to assume players can dash since there are more Megaman games with some sort of dash (counting slide as a dash) then not.

Like it or not the gameplay of Megaman world does not exist without a dash/slide. There are exactly 2 games in the franchise where you cannot dash/slide before MM9. It's downright bogus when one of Wily's pattern is directly copied from one of the many Megaman games that features sliding, and every video you see people dodging that pattern involves using sliding because to do it without requires basically emulator assisted perfection. So far the videos I've seen people are very bad at dodging this same pattern, because it's mostly not intended to be dodged without sliding unless you jumped perfectly.

[Julius Seeker]

I read about the sales numbers but there are 70+ people on the credits for Megaman 9, which is more than any Megaman game I remember seeing, so I'm not sure if it's actually as much of a success as it looks.

It depends on the nature of the credits and the resources allocated by the people involved. 70+ people sounds about right. If resources were re-allocated from other projects to meet milestone deadlines, then their contribution still has to be credited. Contract details, publisher details, and developer details are all possibilities. The contributions may not necessarilly have been very costly. Even so, that's 140,000 on Wiiware in 1 week in North America; total sales will be much higher than that; especially by years end.

[Kupek]

Having a boss that was designed for the slide, and not having the slide is bogus, I agree. But that's a small aspect of the overall game - it's a legitimate point, but I don't think it invalidates the design of the game as whole. Games aren't proofs; they don't fall apart if one thing is wrong.

I guess we're going around in circles again, because you said taking out elements of gameplay serves no purpose. But I think it has a clear purpose: level design. Simply, the more capabilities the player has, the harder it is to make a well designed level. The more variables in an equation the harder it is to solve. I get why you may not like this - you like having the extra capabilities as a player - but I guess I'll never understand why you don't think it's a valid design choice.

[Don]

Why does taking away capability make the game worse? It's like saying what if Super Mario Brothers no longer has the ability to dash? You can make a game that doesn't require it, but gameplay obviously has to be vastly simplified to compensate. For the most part the entire gameplay of MM9 is very simple precisely because you cannot slide at all, so you can't make patterns that require sliding as a way to avoid it, except the 4 spark pattern used by Wily at the end (or rather it'd require a skill level that is unobtainable by a normal player to dodge it without sliding).

While simplicity is not necessarily a bad thing, it's also limiting. Zero's triple shot pattern is not realistically dodgeable without a wall jump or a double jump, and is absolutely impossible to dodge if you're not allowed to dash. So his signature pattern would not have been possible in an original Megaman platform (slide is not as powerful as a dash and would not get you out of the pattern) unless you're supposed to beat a boss while never dodging their pattern at all, and in that case you might as well call it a RPG or Megaman Legends 2. While wall jumping/double jump also leads to some very degenerative gameplay elements, the fact is that you needed at least one of those for the most recognizable pattern in Megaman history to occur.

Obviously some gameplay could end up adding unnecessary complexity. A lot of the X series is ruined by the abusive wall jumping mechanism where you just stay on the upper left corner of the room 90% of the time. In X4 the Plasma Shot is so powerful that if not for the fact that special weapons stun bosses in infinite combos, you'd never need any weapon besides your charged shot, which leads to a completely broken gameplay as X. But these guys are professional so I don't think it's asking too much for them to figure out a compromise between variety and broken. Protoman's charged shot in MM9 seems to be set at 3X shot strength (as opposed to say, 20X strength in the case of Plasma Shot in X4), and is canceled if you take damage while charging. This makes it not too great against regular enemies (you can shoot faster than you can charge), and bosses in MM9 seems to have relatively short invinicibilty frames so it doesn't seem like you get a significant damage advantage using a charged shot (charged shots have a huge advantage on bosses with long invinicibility frames since you just recharge in between). Presumably the fact that it can be canceled also factors into balance while fighting bosses.

So obviously these guys can still do their job without throwing away every bit of progress that has been made in the 20 years. It is not easy to sort out all the junk in the Megaman universe versus something that actually added gameplay, but they have 20 years to figure this stuff out too. I don't buy this 'complexity is too hard' argument Inafune is saying, especially when you can get these complexity back for $2 and it seems like the game actually accounts for those, which implies that the team indeed knows how to handle these elements and didn't have to deliver a game that was artificially crippling in terms of gameplay.[/img]

[SineSwiper]

We've gone back and forth on this for months, so I doubt this will make a difference, but I'm going to try again: what I've read says that this game does have innovation, it's just in the level design. They stripped away all of the unnecessary (yes, I realize this is an arguable statement) mechanics and focused on creating innovative levels.

What I don't understand about your perspective, Don, is you don't seem to think that's a legitimate design decision.

BC:R's old-school character and level design was a legitimate design decision. MM9's isn't. BC:R was at least attempting to modernize the NES game.

Even then, the lack of abilities (ahem, not jumping) was really restricting until you figured out how to move better with the hook.

[SineSwiper]

I agree and BG&E is one of those for me. $30 for an 8 hour game and zero complaints.

The "lack of value" argument is due to 2 things: the premium price and the fact that it's only downloadable. As I've said many times before, I put a lower value on games that don't come on hard media. Even BC:RA, which I consider to be the best value for the price, is just worth the $10. But if it were on a disc? Easily worth $20 or even $25

God! If only you knew how good it was. I'm half tempted just to buy it for you.

[Kupek]

Do you have a reason why BC:R is legitimate while MM9 is not? Keep in mind when I say "design," that has nothing to do with graphics and sound.

[Zeus]

Do you have a reason why BC:R is legitimate while MM9 is not? Keep in mind when I say "design," that has nothing to do with graphics and sound.

I'm with Kup on this one (sorry, Kup). The design is old school which a lot of people love. The aesthetics is just an artistic choice. BC:RA plays just like the original BC, almost to a fault. Just some minor changes the levels, the addition of a large final level, and changed bosses (not including the multi, co-op, and challenges). MM is basically MM2 with new levels, bosses, and weapons. They're not that far off aside from aesthetics and the fact that BC:RA has some extra bonus stuff