The Shrine

And by far #3 is my current favorite, although the first flying one (#4?) was a damn good ride, too.

It took me forever to finally figure out #3. I would climb the sword after he tried to chop me, only to get blocked by his wrist armor when trying to climb higher. The repeated hint "His armor looks brittle" led me to believe that i should keep pumping his wrist thing with arrows, but that was doing nothing. It was only by chance that i happened to be standing on the circular stone thing when he tried to chop me and instead hit the stone thus breaking his own bracelet. That battle took me about 50 minutes. In addition to the difficulty, i liked #3's look the best, so far.

The first flying giant was fun, but pretty easy and it took me almost no time to kill #6, the one with the beard under the temple. I simply was running away in fear, from #6, and hid so i could stop and think when he bent over to peer at me, giving away the secret to get on him pretty easily. Whenever i have had trouble, the little hints that the god gives you are usually enough to atleast give you something to try, like #5 said to try hiding underground. I dont know, Agent, i havent had to look at a GameFAQs yet... i'm sure the harder ones are still to come, though.

Once on these things i do a good job staying on, finding places to rest, and finding the places to stab, but figuring out how to get things started has been the challenge.

There is defenitely something odd going on, though, in the story. After each kill when you get inpaled by the black stuff and pass out, it appears that god voices are laughing at you. I fear that i am not helping save my dead g/f, but helping free the god? Are the colossus some kind of guardians? I hear the ending is one of the best in any recent game, so i look forward to it.

Flip wrote:I dont know, Agent, i havent had to look at a GameFAQs yet... i'm sure the harder ones are still to come, though.

Well, allow me to qualify things for a minute here. I rented the game, which means that I didn't read the instruction booklet and I only had a few days in which to play it (because once I got further into it, I knew I didn't want to spend money on it). Coupled with the fact that I hated the camera, controls, and game mechanics, if I couldn't figure something out within 10 minutes or so of futzing around, I said screw it and went to the FAQ to get things over with. For the record, I FAQed in some way to get past the 2nd (didn't know the feet were "emitting light"), 6th (kept trying to climb on via the fur on the back of his fist, although I did notice the beard), 9th, 15th, and 16th colossi.

By the way, Flip, I figured out something about my opinions on this game based on something you said. You referred to SotC as a "moving puzzle", and when I thought of the game that way, I realized "hey, that's exactly why I don't like it, they're crappy puzzles!"

See, for the past couple of years I've been participating in the MIT Mystery Hunt with some friends of mine, and for the past couple of months we've been doing a practice puzzlehunt to prepare. So, I've been doing a shitload of puzzles lately, all of which are far more involved and fun to do than the puzzles were in "Shadow" - because let's face it, the "Shadow" puzzles have one simple (yet in some cases, overly obscure and unclued, leading to accidental solving) gimmick to get on the colossus, and then once you actually get on, the battle is basically over - aside from a lot of dreary moments of holding R1 and then hitting square a bunch of times (or getting on, getting thrown off, and then having to do the exact same gimmick you did the first time over and over again).

And that's the other thing that really bugs me - the waiting. For some reason, the designers made the inexplicable decision to have the player spend most of the game waiting - waiting for the colossi to move into position ("fucking move, you son of a bitch!"), waiting for them to stop shaking once you get on them ("look, my stamina gauge is mostly full, just let me stab the asshole already!"), or waiting for the Wanderer to get up after suffering a particularly strong blow ("AAGH! WHY IS HE JUST LYING THERE? THIS IS POINTLESS! LET ME DO SOMETHING!"). The problem with making a game this way is that as soon as somebody falls out from under the spell of the game's experience, they realize "Hey, I'm not doing anything. This is pretty fucking boring."

And I'm not saying that I'd prefer a game with the opposite - i.e. bad art direction and nonstop action - because that's basically what PoP: Warrior Within was and I hated that game too. I like my games to have a healthy mix of gameplay and artistry, not concentrate on one to the exclusion of the other.

I hear the ending is one of the best in any recent game, so i look forward to it.

You'll probably like it. I won't say any more so that you can enjoy it.

I've always been a Police Quest, King's Quest, Space Quest, Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, Maniac Mansion, and Myst kind of guy. I like relatively simple puzzles to figure out with relatively simple execution to then pull it off followed by some sort of gratification for the accomplishment. You get all that in a unique little package with SotC. This game certainly doesnt require a membership in MENSA to beat, but not many would like it if it did.

I must be crazy, too, because with the boss lock (L1) camera i think the camera is highly usable and i find the controls responsive.

I think you're a nut , but thats what makes this forum so great!

'kay...allow me to rephrase something. I don't mean that these are crappy puzzles in the sense that they're too easy, I mean that they are crappy puzzles in that they expect you to make assumptions with information you don't have.

For example, let's take the sixth colossus. How was anyone supposed to know that the colossus would bend down to look for you? You couldn't possibly have assumed that, because none of the other colossi had done so and there was no information supplied by the game that they were capable of that action anyway. So you ran under the balcony because that was the only place to go, and after a moment the solution fell into your lap, entirely by accident. I had the same kind of thing happen to me with a later colossus, and I don't like it - if someone is going to figure out a puzzle, allow them to do it by applying the information they have to the situation at hand, not hiding the information away and only allowing someone to stumble upon it after twenty minutes of blindly flailing about. (I had the same problem with the original Resident Evil, where one of the medals you needed was inside a book that you found, and the only way to get it was to look at the book in your item view, rotate it around such that you were looking at the pages, and "examine" the book, when the game never told you at any point that you could manipulate objects in that view. I was pissed at that bullshit too.)

Finally, and I'm only bothering to do this because you think I'm crazy for not liking this game, allow me to present a concurring opinion.

Tycho from PA wrote:A game made entirely of breathtaking boss battles is not unwelcome, to be sure. That's unorthodox. What's more, the "bosses" and your interactions with them are almost certainly exhilarating, when Shadow's camera is accurately displaying game events. As the game continues, you become more and more familiar with the somewhat strange control scheme set before you. It isn't that they're commands you're unfamiliar with - for example, you don't press the triangle button to drink a glass of milk or something. They just never feel quite natural. It's exaggerated by a sometimes wayward camera and a willful steed. I understand why things are the way they are, size disparities are pretty much what the game is about and the fact needs to be emphasized at all times. If platforming this awkward and weird were in any other game, I wouldn't tolerate it.

Tycho from PA also wrote:Having bested Shadow of the Colossus at the culmination of a three a.m. ultrasession, I'm confident that I know what there is to know about the title. Let me tell you that by the end, I was only beating that game because it was the closest I could come to physically beating the team that developed it. I was manhandling them by proxy. This isn't to say that I did not experience several profound moments while playing through it. The epic scale of some encounters is moving on a primal level. The understated story, "told" largely through inference, was not trite, irrelevant, or insulting! This is exceedingly rare. What I am saying, however, is that those sublime moments are largely transient. I am not of the opinion that their technology is up to the task they have set before it. I respect that creating a platform game with arbitrary, often organic surfaces - hairy mounds, spinal ridges, etcetera - represents completely original technical challenges. However, I do not grant that because they have attempted something difficult they're entitled to oral sex from me or any other person for manifesting some portion of their vision.

The idea is potent. Whenever their maddening technology doesn't obscure it, the power of that idea will seize the machinery of your conscious mind.

A lot of games these days require you either have a FAQ, buy the strategy guide, or have psychic powers to play it the way it is intended to be. That's why I usually get a FAQ before I play the game to make sure I don't end up wasting a lot of time running around in circles.

Don Wang wrote:A lot of games these days require you either have a FAQ, buy the strategy guide, or have psychic powers to play it the way it is intended to be. That's why I usually get a FAQ before I play the game to make sure I don't end up wasting a lot of time running around in circles.

Shadows is a little different, though, since they do give a hint or two if you need them.

I've decided that one reason you may not have liked it as much, Agent, is BECAUSE you rented it. You gave yourself a limited time frame which allowed you to get frustrated. I've beaten up to #9 now and while his solution was odd and took me and my wife a while to eventually get, the satisfaction factor of doing it and getting that final stab right in his stupid head was a wonderful feeling. I can picture someone playing him for 10 minutes, going to a FAQ, reading the answer, then saying to themselves, "Well thats dumb, how the hell was i supposed to figure that out?" when you would have figured it out given enough time. I've been there in plenty of Myst games reading a FAQ and thinking the same thing when i am really just mad that i had to go to a FAQ.

I can understand your Resident Evil example, but this games gives you 2 weapons, an environment (with usually something unique like a geyser), and a boss (with usually soemthing unique like a beard or long tail)... a fairly simple set of tools.

Tycho complains about the camera (what 3D game doesnt get this review?), the horse, and the technology? The platforming is minimal and the controls to do it ARE responsive... i just dont see what he means by unnatural. He admits to liking the scale, liking the idea, had profound moments, and was not insulted by the story; so what is he complaining about? The technology? Tycho is a writer who goes against the grain just to be 'that guy'.

It isnt my mission to make everyone like the game, so it doesnt bother me that you dont, but i find it intrigueing that what you dont like seems to be the reasons why i do. The game is still art, to me, and the slightly obscure camera angles, the more realistic character interaction (like when taking a hard blow), the drab coor palette, and the horses AI all just make it unlike any game out there... for the better.

I'm on either 6 or 7 right now, and I enjoy the game. I understand Agent and Tycho's complaints, and I agree with them to a large degree. It's just that the experience is so original that I'm willing to look past the game's faults. I don't play many games these days mainly because I feel like I've done it all before, and I don't feel like I've played this game before.

The boss puzzles are generally simple and sometimes arbitrary, but there's usually some clever little thing that pleases me. Boss 3 (which I also like the best so far) came easily to me, while Mr. Climb My Beard took me a while to figure out. That really doesn't bother me, because the <i>eureka</i> moment, along with the follow through, is so satisfying.

And that first time you jump on a boss and the music changes is a rush I haven't felt while playing a game in a long time.

Flip may have a point about time constraints, because I've had this game since a week or two after it came out, but I'm still not half way done. I would resent the feeling that I must go and figure out the next boss.

Don Wang wrote:A lot of games these days require you either have a FAQ, buy the strategy guide, or have psychic powers to play it the way it is intended to be. That's why I usually get a FAQ before I play the game to make sure I don't end up wasting a lot of time running around in circles.

That eliminates the <i>eureka</i> moment, and general exploration. Those are two big motivations for me to play games.

You know, you guys do have a really good point. Renting it very likely was a bad idea, and in hindsight it was an especially bad idea to rent it during a vacation week when I also picked up a DS and the four best games for it (Mario Kart, Advance Wars: DS, Dawn of Sorrow, and Meteos) - I think I almost resented SotC for making me play it (and rush through it) so that I could feel that I didn't waste my money. Maybe I should go buy a used copy of ICO one of these days and give it a nice, leisurely shot.

Kupek wrote:I'm on either 6 or 7 right now, and I enjoy the game. I understand Agent and Tycho's complaints, and I agree with them to a large degree. It's just that the experience is so original that I'm willing to look past the game's faults. I don't play many games these days mainly because I feel like I've done it all before, and I don't feel like I've played this game before.

The boss puzzles are generally simple and sometimes arbitrary, but there's usually some clever little thing that pleases me. Boss 3 (which I also like the best so far) came easily to me, while Mr. Climb My Beard took me a while to figure out. That really doesn't bother me, because the <i>eureka</i> moment, along with the follow through, is so satisfying.

And that first time you jump on a boss and the music changes is a rush I haven't felt while playing a game in a long time.

Flip may have a point about time constraints, because I've had this game since a week or two after it came out, but I'm still not half way done. I would resent the feeling that I must go and figure out the next boss.

Don Wang wrote:A lot of games these days require you either have a FAQ, buy the strategy guide, or have psychic powers to play it the way it is intended to be. That's why I usually get a FAQ before I play the game to make sure I don't end up wasting a lot of time running around in circles.

That eliminates the <i>eureka</i> moment, and general exploration. Those are two big motivations for me to play games.

Pretty much how I feel about the game. I mean, there's lots of slowdown and pop-up, and the camera is flakey, but the experience is so damned good it doesn't matter.

Agent, if you like pinball games at all, get Metroid Pinball for DS. It's freakin' great. If it wasn't for the fact that the ball falls down the middle WAY too easily and the stupid choice to have the tilt feature activated by rubbing the touch-screen (thus rendering it useless and making the ball fall down the middle more often than it should), it would be the best of the pinball games I've played. What other pinball game do you beat a boss, have energy, and actually shoot stuff? You have missles and power bombs too. So much fun. That, Mario Kart DS, and Colossus have actually dragged me away from Guitar Hero. Well, that and the fact I'm on freakin' hard songs in Expert (Crossroads and another I can't remember; done 23 of 30 so far).

Alright Agent, i'll eat some of my words and apologize for giving you a hard time. This game is defenitely not without its flaws, some of the later colossus drove me nuts.

I started right after work yesterday and me and the wife (she loves to watch this game and help figure things out) played until 11, so about a 4.5 hour session. We started on #10 (the sand worm thing) and we got through him pretty easily with no help. Still fun.

Then #11 almost made me twist my controller until it shattered into a million pieces. Figuring out that we needed to get fire was easy enough, but getting stun locked while trying to do it SUCKED. That stupid ram sometimes never let you get up before he would head butt you again and again and again until you died. Not only that but i kept leading him off the wrong edge, not knowing that i needed him to fall off the other side. Once in open space he would stun lock me constantly. Luckily once we finally got him over the correct edge (which we just decided to try on a whim) and his armor shattered i didnt miss the first time i jumped on his back. Very annoying boss.

#12 (the walking island guy) was almost as annoying as it had one of the most convoluted solutions. What was annoying was that they made you do the same thing 3 times. Once we figured out that you needed to get on top of the shrine things to get him to put his front feet up and expose his weak spot on his belly, they would only let you take 1/3 of his life before he would put his feet back down. The first time we jumped from him to a shrine, we just happened to be next to a shrine, thus for the second time we had to do it, it took us a while to realize you could steer the thing by hitting the rocks on his head. That is defenitely one of those puzzles where you scratch your head afterwards and say, "How the F was i supposed to know that."

#13 (the second flying monster), was a fun boss, but was also annoying that they made you mount him 3 times. Once you got 1/3 of his life away he would do a sand dive and knock you off. Plus, they never even exposed the next weak spot until you got on again. Hitting his stomach sacks with the bow and arrows was fun target practice, though, and leaping from Argo to cling on his wing was pretty cool. So, no real complaints except that it is dumb to force me to do it. If i fell off on my own, that is one thing, but it seems like cheating to make it so i fall and have to do it again.

#14 was a stun locking bitch, just like #11, but atleast he wasnt that hard. I platformed that level well and didnt ever fall off. He did stun lock kill me twice, though, as i was trying to figure out what to do.

Anyways, that is how far i am at this point and can understand a little better some of your grievences. I still really like this game, but did also have a few issues with a couple cheating annoying bosses.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head there Flip - the stun locking and the needless repetition were two bewildering design decisions that really cheesed me off and were the main part of my problems with the latter half of the game.

Keep going, though - I guarantee you'll find the ending worth it.

Finally had the thime to beat this game and we did really like the ending. Leading up to it, though, was sort of a pain (#16):

#15 took no time at all, we were extremely lucky because we found the way to do it by chance. We were trying to jump up on the low edge that is too high when the colossus tried to stomp on us, and provided the boost. after that we just happened to be on the right spot when he swung at us and broke the ceiling down allowing us to climb higher. From reading FAQs after we beat him, one pointed out that you can access 4 seperate levels from the stomp boost, but only 1 of those will have their ceiling collapse when swung at, we were lucky to be on the right one first try. After that there wasnt too much hard stuff to figure out and he was toast.

#16 took us a good while, and i was anxious to beat him so i finally had to use a FAQ, too. We died a whole bunch of times in the very beginning alone by his fireballs until we found the paths that led up to him. Once we climbed all the way to the top we figured out how to get to his right hand, and that was where we got stuck. Who woulda knew you needed to shoot his shoulder with the bow and arrow, if they put a blue mark there then i sure as hell couldnt see it. While on his right hand i fell off atleast 20 times trying things until i gave up and looked it up, after that he was pretty easy.

The ending wasnt too suprising, but at the same time was. I basically guessed that you were being tricked just by the mood of the game and by the violent 'victories' you had after killing each colossus, but never would have thought you would die... and then be reborn. They did a good enough job with story explanation, but still left some things that you needed to fill in with your own imagination. I was happy that the god kept his end of the bargain.

A very good game, but not the game of the year i originally thought it was going to become. They try to have replayability with the hard mode and time attack modes, but without the 'a-ha!' factor it probably wont be that much fun.