The Shrine

So I'm really getting into Mario Kart DS these days, but since I never really got into a Kart game before (no, not even Double Dash), I'm a total newbie to the Kart mechanics and the two times I've gone online thus far I've essentially gotten my butt kicked.

After some futzing around, it seems to me that the best way to go about learning the game is to do time trials, particularly against the Nintendo Staff Ghost Data (since they do you the favor of showing you on the touch screen exactly where they go and what they do with regards to drifting, boosting, mushrooms etc.). Here's the question that I have about that - since I'm just starting, I spent last night incessantly playing the Figure 8 Course over and over again until I finally managed to beat the staff guy using the same kart (by only .06 seconds, but I still beat him) - but since his name was Ninten* and they only showed one star on his kart's flag, does that mean that was only a one-star performance and I need to beat him by even more to earn three stars in a Grand Prix context? (I somehow doubt this is the case since the staff guy appeared to drive it near perfectly, but I'll ask anyway, because if not - eep!)

Also, I'm still trying to decide on a favorite kart. On the Figure 8 course, for example, I was able to barely beat the staff data with a medium kart (standard Mario), beat it by .4 seconds with a heavy kart (standard DK), and be over a second slower with a light kart (standard Toad). In a WFC match or Grand Prix, would a light kart be better in order to better recover from item mishaps or trips offroad, or does the top speed tradeoff hurt too much? (I think I know the answer to this myself, as online I've thus far been creamed by people playing as Peach and Yoshi, but figured I'd ask anyway.)

I haven't played the Mario Kart series seriously since the SNES era but it seems like most of the fundamental mechanics haven't changed much. In versus mode there' are usually more obstacles and you also have to deal with another player, so to play as a heavier cart would involve using your speed advantage to get ahead out of item-hitting range and then never letting the other guy closing the gap. You would pretty much need to know the track perfectly since the faster top speed carts have poor handle and acceleration, and then you still have to have enough time to get out of the range of items in the first place. Fast acceleration or good handling characters tend to be better for versus mode unless you're absolutely certain you can avoid every obstacle in a track.

I would disagree, the fat carts are great in versus since (like Don said) you can get a lead and stay there. Rest assured that people who play versus DO know the tracks that well. Although, in the N64 version there were weapons that would hit you regardless of how far ahead you are. so maybe this isnt the case anymore, but i know in the SNES version me and mu buds could only really compete with each other when we were both fatties.

In battle mode the accelerators and small carts were best.

When my DS comes, I'll let you know as I'll finally be able to play MK DS. Then you and I can race and it won't be as much of a slaughter.

The high top speed guys lends themselves toward playing a pure racing game, while the fast acceleration/good handling guys plays well in more active fighting games. I do believe the versus maps have extra obstacles to make it harder to turn it into a pure racing game.

It really depends on how well you can shake the guy off at the beginning because if you can't shake the guy behind you, then it'll eventually turn into a fighting game as opposed to a racing game and the big guys lose too much time when they do spin out due to their slow acceleration. In my big guy races I either stay at top speed for the entire race and win by a huge margin, or not win at all.

Flip wrote:I would disagree, the fat carts are great in versus since (like Don said) you can get a lead and stay there. Rest assured that people who play versus DO know the tracks that well. Although, in the N64 version there were weapons that would hit you regardless of how far ahead you are.

The blue shell hits all the time if you're in first and I've had a red shell chase me for half a track, so I'm pretty sure they have pretty far reaching range as long as they don't hit a wall or something.

Thanks for the replies, guys, but I gave up and just read a couple FAQs on mechanics and such, and to see what I had to do to unlock things.

I'm intrigued by this whole snaking thing, and even though a lot of people consider it cheating, apparently Nintendo intentionally included it in the game. I'll probably learn how to do it and then just not use it online unless I see somebody else using it.

I'd never heard the term 'snaking' before now. Looked it up on GameFAQs, and complaining about it is bullshit - it's nothing new. If you can do constant mini-boosts on a straightaway you deserve an advantage. Looks to me like the MKDS online community is plagued by whiney noobs.

I'd own so many of these fucks online.

I remember reading about that during the N64 days. Isn't that involve going in a straight way as a series of turns to get a boost? If you ask me, going straight should always be faster than anything else assuming we're still talking about a racing game. Back when I played in the SNES days, a lot of races comes down to knowing which turns you can make without a power slide because making a turn normally still gives you a slight speed bonus over power sliding. Power slide also makes you take wide angles which means you can really send them flying with an attack or even a good bump compared to just making the turn normally so sometimes you have to use break instead of power slide even if it's a turn that's easily doable with power slide.

I really think the strategy part of the game was learning when not to power slide, because I sure don't have any problem power sliding every single turn if I wanted to. It seems like all the later Mario Karts just want you to power slide on the entire course, though.

Don Wang wrote:I remember reading about that during the N64 days. Isn't that involve going in a straight way as a series of turns to get a boost? If you ask me, going straight should always be faster than anything else assuming we're still talking about a racing game. Back when I played in the SNES days, a lot of races comes down to knowing which turns you can make without a power slide because making a turn normally still gives you a slight speed bonus over power sliding. Power slide also makes you take wide angles which means you can really send them flying with an attack or even a good bump compared to just making the turn normally so sometimes you have to use break instead of power slide even if it's a turn that's easily doable with power slide.

I really think the strategy part of the game was learning when not to power slide, because I sure don't have any problem power sliding every single turn if I wanted to. It seems like all the later Mario Karts just want you to power slide on the entire course, though.

I don't think that was the intention. Mario Kart really isn't a pure racing game, never has been, never will be. Any talk of it being one is a fallacy. What I think they did here is add something for the kart-nuts to help stretch the game out and give them something to shoot for (ie. time records) long after they've wasted the rest of the game an the majority of people online. It becomes like a obsessive nerd dick measuring contest.

Personally, I don't mind this. I will never, even want to play the game that much, but for those who love it and can't get enough of it, this is an excellent way to add depth to the game. F-Zero GX for the 'Cube had a similar snaking thing. Wasn't easy to pull off, but for the nuts, it was there. A lot of fighting games (Virtua Fighter, Street Fighter) always had these crazy things you can learn to do if you dig deep enough that made you an uber-obsessive nerd.

I like the drifting boost you get in Mario Kart DS. It's dangerous but can really make a difference. Haven't seen that one before. I assume it's from the GBA one, but I haven't played that one much.

Don, there's a big difference between "sliding" in Super Mario Kart and "drifting" in MKDS. If I remember correctly, in SMK, going into a slide meant that you were going too fast through the turn - and if you slid for too long, you spun out, right? - and so avoiding sliding was the better way to drive. Driving skill in SMK was predicated on setting up your angles correctly and pressing/letting up on the acceleration & brake buttons as necessary.

In MKDS, drifting is a deliberate action you can take to sacrifice control for speed. See, every time you hit the directional pad in MKDS, your kart loses speed - unless you're drifting. The difference when you're drifting is that the kart will constantly want to rotate in the direction of the turn, so you have adjust your position throughout the turn by countersteering or whatnot. Driving skill in MKDS is therefore predicated on how well you can hug the inside part of a turn while drifting. I think the boost was developed to give people an incentive to drift as much as possible, since if you drift all the way through the turn, you're often pointing in the wrong direction at the end of it and the boost helps you straighten back out.

The fact that there are those who have figured out how to apply the drift boost in other situations really doesn't bother me - if the game lets you do it, and it helps you to go faster, why wouldn't you do it? However, since it requires more skill to snake and can really screw you over if you mess up, I think I'm just going to work on my "normal" MKDS skills for now, and if I start getting repeatedly hosed online even when I'm driving well, then I'll look into mastering the technique.

In SMK if you slid too long you spun out, yes, but sliding through turns was still preferable. If you jumped and slid into a turn (power slide) when you got out of the turn you didnt lose any speed and in fact went a little faster. It wasnt an obvious boost in speed, but it was faster. It may have been unintentional, but people liked it, so it seems in the later versions they showcase power sliding and thus have made it a little too good?

In SMK you're still slower if you power slide a turn compare to making it normally. Power slide also makes a wider angle than a perfect turn which means it has to travel more distance to cover the same turn.

The original Mario Kart was definitely very close to a racing game. Take a heavy guy and if you get a boost early and the other guy (not a heavy guy) doesn't hit you on the first item trip, you're never going to catch up to him if he can get past the rest of the course flawlessly. The later games seem move away from this direction though.

Flip wrote:In SMK if you slid too long you spun out, yes, but sliding through turns was still preferable. If you jumped and slid into a turn (power slide) when you got out of the turn you didnt lose any speed and in fact went a little faster. It wasnt an obvious boost in speed, but it was faster. It may have been unintentional, but people liked it, so it seems in the later versions they showcase power sliding and thus have made it a little too good?

It's been a while, but I don't think you got any speed boost in SMK. The benefit from jumping and sliding into a turn was that you could navigate extremely tight (sometimes 180 degree) turns without letting up on the gas. Without sliding, you'd have to slow down considerabley.

Don Wang wrote:Power slide also makes a wider angle than a perfect turn which means it has to travel more distance to cover the same turn.

That doesn't sound right, because I disticntly remember using the jump + slide method specifically for tight turns. I'd jump a bit before the turn, slide around it tighter than I could normally, and then I'd be back at full speed faster than if I let up on the gas. The trick was that if you jumped from too far out, you'd slide too long and spin out.

Don Wang wrote:Power slide also makes a wider angle than a perfect turn which means it has to travel more distance to cover the same turn.

Yeah, like Baby Park? It's all angling. Even if you do travel a bit further you're doing it at full speed, so it's still preferable

Power slide makes a wider angle than if you just try to make the turn normally since you can also steer a wider angle than normal while power sliding. Of course the drawback with turning normally is that you might not make the turn completely and go to the dirt area and slow down.

To illustrate let's take a typical 180 'n' shaped turn.

If you power slide you'll roughly trace out the outer edge of the 'n' figure and make this turn.

If you turn normally you'll end up tracing the inside of this turn. If you make the turn you'd require a shorter amount of distance to make this turn because you're taking basically a straightline path across the 'n' as opposed to a circular arc. I think you also slow down just a little bit for power sliding because if you power slide back and forth on a straight path, the person moving straight will pass you up.

Of course, the drawback of not using power slide is that you may very well fly out of the 'n' turn completely if you can't make the inner turn at full speed.

A good example of this is on the Rainbow Road, one of the last n shaped 180 turns can be made by Toad/Koopa Troopa by just turning. It is a dangerous turn but if you're behind you may have no choice to do it and it is satisfying to come back from behind against someone who power slides flawlessly with only racing techniques.

Speaking of which, Rainbow Road is a great track because it is so narrow that you can actually swing too far out with a power slide and fall off the edge, and every turn is makeable by just turning (though with considerable risk) at least for the little guys, so you end up having to use all the techniques, including breaking, as opposed to just have a power slide snoozefest on most courses where all turns are either easily makeable by turning or only makeable with power slide.

Don Wang wrote:If you power slide you'll roughly trace out the outer edge of the 'n' figure and make this turn.

In SMK, if you jump at the right point before the turn, you take the turn much tighter than if you went through normally. I think you're right in that sliding actually results in a wider turn, but you don't follow through on the whole thing. Your kart is facing in the direction you want to go as you slide (or close to it), so you cut off the slide as soon as you can go straight and be on the track around the turn.

My main problem was trying to slide <I>too</i> tightly. I'd jump too early and end up sliding into the barrier, instead of sliding just past it.

I think i could take any of you donkeys in SNES SMK. Lol, the gauntlets are off, too bad we could never do anything about it. SMK rules.

Kupek wrote: In SMK, if you jump at the right point before the turn, you take the turn much tighter than if you went through normally. I think you're right in that sliding actually results in a wider turn, but you don't follow through on the whole thing. Your kart is facing in the direction you want to go as you slide (or close to it), so you cut off the slide as soon as you can go straight and be on the track around the turn.

My main problem was trying to slide <I>too</i> tightly. I'd jump too early and end up sliding into the barrier, instead of sliding just past it.

That sounds about right, but I'm certain there is a penalty to power sliding that prevents you from using it obsessively. For example take Mario Circuit 1. If you power slide on all the turns, which can be trivially made even with the worst handling character, you'd definitely fall behind compare to someone who is just turning them normally (same top speed class of course). At the very least, power sliding when it's not needed causes you to go through extra distance that could be avoided, and I'm fairly certain there's a small speed loss during a power slide too.

I think the main thing is speed loss. It only benefits you when the turn is so tight that you'd have to slow down anyway.

I was talking with my friend and I think I found what I don't like about the later SMKs. The original was mostly a pure racing game. If someone pulls outside of your item hitting range and you're in the same speed class and you have equivalent skills, you might as well hit give up and save the trouble. Yes versus mode has elevated obstacles and the occasional lightning can turn the tide around, but for the most part the person who is ahead stays ahead for good. I've played countless times on Rainbow Road and the vast majority of them are decided in the first 10 seconds unless you do some crazy things like making a 180 turn without power sliding/breaking.

The later SMKs seem to be more party games. Even if you fall behind you could get an item that will zap someone halfway across the lap so you don't have to hit give up the moment you're behind by a screen. I guess that makes them more interesting, but it also feels like the game is less focused on driving. And no I don't think power sliding on a straight way is 'driving'. It's about the same as if I do a motion for fireball on a straight path I go faster, and in that case I might as well play a fighting game, or the battle mode.

Don Wang wrote:I was talking with my friend and I think I found what I don't like about the later SMKs. The original was mostly a pure racing game. If someone pulls outside of your item hitting range and you're in the same speed class and you have equivalent skills, you might as well hit give up and save the trouble. Yes versus mode has elevated obstacles and the occasional lightning can turn the tide around, but for the most part the person who is ahead stays ahead for good. I've played countless times on Rainbow Road and the vast majority of them are decided in the first 10 seconds unless you do some crazy things like making a 180 turn without power sliding/breaking.

The later SMKs seem to be more party games. Even if you fall behind you could get an item that will zap someone halfway across the lap so you don't have to hit give up the moment you're behind by a screen. I guess that makes them more interesting, but it also feels like the game is less focused on driving. And no I don't think power sliding on a straight way is 'driving'. It's about the same as if I do a motion for fireball on a straight path I go faster, and in that case I might as well play a fighting game, or the battle mode.

100% agree.

Flip wrote:I think i could take any of you donkeys in SNES SMK. Lol, the gauntlets are off, too bad we could never do anything about it. SMK rules.

Doesn't ZSNES have an online option for multiplayer games?

I tried it before but it seems like one person has to be the server and it gives you a pretty big advantage since you get to tell everyone what's going on. I was playing against a friend on a fighting game and he'd never be able to block anything when I was the server since it looked to me he wasn't blocking!

Some of the major problems with the original Mario Kart that I always had was:

1) Only two players
2) Lowsy controls (in comparison to the others)
3) If you got hit with a weapon once, you lost the race. It is a matter of who gets the red shell first that determines the winner.
4) Too slow (that Sonic the Hedgehog 2 commercial demonstrated my thoughts accurately)

Luckily they addressed all of these problems in the later versions.

As far as power sliding goes. Yeah, this is something that you have to master in order to compete with better players in all of the games. None of the Mario Karts are typical racers, if they were I know I wouldn't be playing them =)

Well, I only played MK:DS in Babbages, but it seems pretty similar to Double Dash except there's only one level of boost sparks instead of three. So, going by my Double Dash experience, the ghost racers in time trials are FAR from perfect - they only seem that way at first because you don't really need to master the game controls to beat the cup circuits. After a little practice, that ghost racer will WISH he had your skills.

DonWang wrote:The later SMKs seem to be more party games. Even if you fall behind you could get an item that will zap someone halfway across the lap so you don't have to hit give up the moment you're behind by a screen. I guess that makes them more interesting, but it also feels like the game is less focused on driving. And no I don't think power sliding on a straight way is 'driving'. It's about the same as if I do a motion for fireball on a straight path I go faster, and in that case I might as well play a fighting game, or the battle mode.

Any racing game that involves weapons is automatically a party game. There's just no "pure" racing experience that allows you to shoot other racers with turtle shells. I love all the iterations of MK, but the focus was never on pure driving skill, even in the SNES days, the newer versions like Double Dash have just improved on the formula.

Gentz wrote:Any racing game that involves weapons is automatically a party game. There's just no "pure" racing experience that allows you to shoot other racers with turtle shells. I love all the iterations of MK, but the focus was never on pure driving skill, even in the SNES days, the newer versions like Double Dash have just improved on the formula.

Well, the SNES version is all about the luck of being the first one to get the red shell. I wouldn't say driving is even that big of an issue in the original since the game has most of the easiest tracks in the series (with Double Dash excluded).

The SNES one probably seems like less of a party game because it is limited to only 2 player mode, whereas later games have maximums between 4 and 8 players (though 4 seems to be the magic number) which makes things quite a bit more interesting.

The red turtle thing only applies if you're in the same speed class because otherwise one character will quickly get out of item range after the first lap. It's the fact that it is a pure racing game so that one red shell is devastating because once you blow past the item hitting range, it's pretty much over.

Also red shells aren't a guaranteed hit against good players because you can hop over it and hope it'll miss on the tracking, or block it with a well-timed shell/banana pill.

For the track difficulty, I think it's because the tracks do not have incredibly hard turns that allows you to have the difference between a regular turn versus power slide. Anyone can just power slide every single turn and make them more or less trivially even with the heavy racers, but you really have to know the game to know which turns you can make normally so you don't lose speed.

The red turtle thing only applies if you're in the same speed class because otherwise one character will quickly get out of item range after the first lap. It's the fact that it is a pure racing game so that one red shell is devastating because once you blow past the item hitting range, it's pretty much over.

Yeah, but Don, the fact that there are red shells in the game to begin with automatically takes the focus away from "racing purity." Frankly, I think it's pretty absurd to use the term "pure racing" in the same sentence as Mario Kart, anyway. In a "pure" racing game the battle is solely between the track, your car, and your wits. MK has always been a battle racing game, first and foremost.

I mean, I do agree that SMK's learning curve is steeper than DD's, and that the gulf between a pro and a novice is a little wider, and in that sense it is more "pure," but there's just no room for Seeker's great red shell dilemma in a pure racing game. SMK's only choice was to evolve to integrate the battle aspects more fully into the racing, and in that sense, while SMK might be more "pure" from a racing standpoint, DD is a much more complete game. DD's weapons are so much more balanced, versatile, and responsive than SMK's