The Shrine

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6144641.html

This one is more discriminatory against games than I previously thought. No possibility of it even stretching to other forms of media; it's games only. Gotta love it.....

A law banning selling to minors, or fines, doesnt bother me. With the reality of games nowadays, i would defenitely put on them on par with movies and that industry has been regulating minors for years without too many problems.

I don't take as hard-line a position on this as others in the industry do, but I'd be pretty surprised if this one becomes law.

Treating games and movies fundamentally differently will have the game industry in an uproar, and they'll probably challenge the constitutionality of the law on a discrimination basis, as they have with similar bills in the past.

Flip wrote:A law banning selling to minors, or fines, doesnt bother me. With the reality of games nowadays, i would defenitely put on them on par with movies and that industry has been regulating minors for years without too many problems.

Movies are regulated by the movie industry, not the government. Check out www.mpaa.com

The issue is the discriminatory nature of this bill over that of all other forms of media. This is what I'm mad about....

Games are too, in a sense. The gaming ratings board takes things pretty seriously, and if you get hit with a "M" rating Wal-Mart won't pick you up, for instance.

As you said, it's the discriminatory nature of the bill that probably will lead to its constitutionality being challenged.

Mental wrote:Games are too, in a sense. The gaming ratings board takes things pretty seriously, and if you get hit with a "M" rating Wal-Mart won't pick you up, for instance.

As you said, it's the discriminatory nature of the bill that probably will lead to its constitutionality being challenged.

They've been trying forever to stop it constitiutionally. What I've been saying for the past few months is now that the federal gov't is hardcore on getting it done, it's only a matter of time before they find a way to get one past the courts

I don't think anyone here is effected by that. It also makes sense, you don't want moronic kids buying games like Grand Theft Auto 3 unless their parents approve of it.

As I said, I don't care too much if the government regulates sales to minors, as long as otherwise the First Amendment is upheld.

Zeus wrote:http://www.gamespot.com/news/6144641.html

This one is more discriminatory against games than I previously thought. No possibility of it even stretching to other forms of media; it's games only. Gotta love it.....

All because this nation can't police,babysit, and reprimand their own children, now they are forcing everyone else to do it and taking no responsibility.

GameSpot has been famous for posting news about bills that haven't even been put into law yet, and Zeus is famous for falling for GameSpot's "chicken little" syndrome.

SineSwiper wrote:GameSpot has been famous for posting news about bills that haven't even been put into law yet, and Zeus is famous for falling for GameSpot's "chicken little" syndrome.

Yeah, seems like I miss the whole "proposed" part EVERY TIME........

Hey, I'm just saying that it doesn't even fall into my radar until it's turned into more than one or two whackos seriously considering the bill.

SineSwiper wrote:Hey, I'm just saying that it doesn't even fall into my radar until it's turned into more than one or two whackos seriously considering the bill.

What if it actually passes? Many of them have already passed and have been shot down as being against the First Amendment. It's much closer to becoming law than you think. And with the Federal gov't now involved, it's really only a matter of time.

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:Hey, I'm just saying that it doesn't even fall into my radar until it's turned into more than one or two whackos seriously considering the bill.

What if it actually passes? Many of them have already passed and have been shot down as being against the First Amendment. It's much closer to becoming law than you think. And with the Federal gov't now involved, it's really only a matter of time.

I am sorry, I am not sure I see how making it illegal to sell children simulations about beating prostitutes to death to take your money back as a violation of Freedom of speech, religion, and expresion. Nor do I see how this will be a problem for any of us here.

I don't really care if these pass. The government historically can only censor material for minors, and I hope the adult market is never censored, but I'm actually for the whole rating system and not selling GTA to minors...

The Seeker wrote:

Zeus wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:Hey, I'm just saying that it doesn't even fall into my radar until it's turned into more than one or two whackos seriously considering the bill.

What if it actually passes? Many of them have already passed and have been shot down as being against the First Amendment. It's much closer to becoming law than you think. And with the Federal gov't now involved, it's really only a matter of time.

I am sorry, I am not sure I see how making it illegal to sell children simulations about beating prostitutes to death to take your money back as a violation of Freedom of speech, religion, and expresion. Nor do I see how this will be a problem for any of us here.

Like I've said numerous times, it's the way they're written. Remember, the gov't will be in charge of what is "appropriate" and what isn't "appropriate". If you trust your gov't that much, good for you. What I say is only Nintendo-like games are going to available to everyone under 18 and anyone who wants to make a game that'll appeal to anyone will have to ensure there's very little "unappropriate" things in there. That's going to be a very FAR ranging definition.

And just because it won't affect me doesn't make it right. Imagine you were 14 or 15 when laws like this come into effect.

Zeus wrote:Imagine you were 14 or 15 when laws like this come into effect.

Wouldn't be too difficult:

"Dad I want Mortal Kombat for Christmas."

The law does not prohibit minors from playing games, just from purchasing them.

Besides, mostly all games I played growing up WERE in fact Square, Enix, Nintendo, RARE, and Sega games, companies which do not produce (EDIT) AO rated games.

The Seeker wrote:

Zeus wrote:Imagine you were 14 or 15 when laws like this come into effect.

Wouldn't be too difficult:

"Dad I want Mortal Kombat for Christmas."

The law does not prohibit minors from playing games, just from purchasing them.

Besides, mostly all games I played growing up WERE in fact Square, Enix, Nintendo, RARE, and Sega games, companies which do not produce M rated games.

Well, as long as you have the solution for everyone, all is good then....

I generally don't mind a government censoring *some* things for minors. The trick is to do it in a way that doesn't interfere with free speech for adults.

The game industry has proven adept at handling these challenges, though. I'm content to let them keep on with it.

Zeus wrote:

The Seeker wrote:

Zeus wrote:Imagine you were 14 or 15 when laws like this come into effect.

Wouldn't be too difficult:

"Dad I want Mortal Kombat for Christmas."

The law does not prohibit minors from playing games, just from purchasing them.

Besides, mostly all games I played growing up WERE in fact Square, Enix, Nintendo, RARE, and Sega games, companies which do not produce M rated games.

Well, as long as you have the solution for everyone, all is good then....

Well, the point of the law will be that parents regulate what games that their children play. Why should minors be allowed to own games which involve scenes where you pay prostitutes and then beat them to death after to get your money back if their patents don't want them to?

This is not a censorship law, it is just a regulation for minors in the US. You aren't even American, nor are you under the age of 18: you haven't even complained about how ESRB ratings (as well as movie ratings) are legally enforced in certain provinces in Canada including Ontario and nothing horrible has happened.

This law, even if passed, is quite trivial since most locations already enforce this regulation without an existing law anyways. If it is passed, nothing really changes.

Mental wrote:I generally don't mind a government censoring *some* things for minors. The trick is to do it in a way that doesn't interfere with free speech for adults.

The game industry has proven adept at handling these challenges, though. I'm content to let them keep on with it.

You are, but Hilary and Joe aren't. That's the issue. It's not like I show my 5 year old neice super violent movies or pornos all the time, but when you're talking about this type of enforcement, that means that you'll be getting the vast majority of Nintendo-like games since place like Walmart won't bother carrying the equivalent of AO-rated games since they don't want their shelf space taken up with titles that they really shouldn't be displaying to minors.

Seek, the only enforcement of the games is self-enforcement by companies like Walmart and EB. The issue is, unlike the movie industry, which will punish a theatre if they hear they broke their rules, there's no such thing in the games industry. Hence all the talk about US federal involvment.

Zeus wrote: You are, but Hilary and Joe aren't. That's the issue. It's not like I show my 5 year old neice super violent movies or pornos all the time, but when you're talking about this type of enforcement, that means that you'll be getting the vast majority of Nintendo-like games since place like Walmart won't bother carrying the equivalent of AO-rated games since they don't want their shelf space taken up with titles that they really shouldn't be displaying to minors..

Walmart has only ever sold "Nintendo-Like games"; those are the type that generally sell well and the type that all major videogame producers develop primarilly or exclusively (Like Square, Sega, Enix, Namco, etc...) ; if there was a large enough market for porn games, then I am sure Wal-Mart would capitalize on it. Adult Only games such as BMXXX are generally ridiculed by the public (including Penny-Arcade) as being "videogames for jackoffs"; that is why there is no market for them and few companies who are willing to put resources into developing them into something that doesn't suck.

The Seeker wrote: Walmart has only ever sold "Nintendo-Like games".

Didn't realize Walmart didn't sell GTA....

Here's an in-depth look at the issue by IGN

http://cube.ign.com/articles/692/692862p1.html

Zeus wrote:

The Seeker wrote: Walmart has only ever sold "Nintendo-Like games".

Didn't realize Walmart didn't sell GTA....

They pulled the versions that could be patched to have nudity in them. Did they not?

They may have, but they sell San Andreas now; solo and as a part of the trilogy. I don't know who said otherwise here not too long ago, but Wal-Mart does indeed sell M-rated games.

Black Lotus wrote:They may have, but they sell San Andreas now; solo and as a part of the trilogy. I don't know who said otherwise here not too long ago, but Wal-Mart does indeed sell M-rated games.

They sell M-rated games, but have never sold Adult Only games to my knowledge. There is not really a market for Adult Only games, they are not in demand.

What games have been released for consoles with an AO rating since the ESRB came up with it?

Black Lotus wrote:What games have been released for consoles with an AO rating since the ESRB came up with it?

Actually, when I think about it, I can't think of any =)

Seems to be mainly a PC game thing. I am not sure about the Japanese market, but I think developers are aware that there is not a market for these types of games; or at least they would probably look at their performance on the PC. This is just my speculation though on the situation though, I could be wrong about this.

The Seeker wrote:This is just my speculation though on the situation though, I could be wrong about this.

Isn't that what I've been trying to prove for the last week?

Zeus wrote:

The Seeker wrote:This is just my speculation though on the situation though, I could be wrong about this.

Isn't that what I've been trying to prove for the last week?

Quite obviously not. My quote is in direct relation to the rest of the paragraph which you cut the quote from. That is whether or not game developers looking at the failure of A-O games to judge whether they will invest special development costs or marketing into the genre. I am not sure whether they do this or not, but it would certainly make a lot of sense that they would.

What you have been trying to say that this law is a very bad thing and that it will actually change something; you have offered no proof that really anything will be changed at all. For this reason I have been saying that it is a very trivial thing that will not effect any of us.

Besides, there are three points that you seem to be dodging:

1) You are NOT American, yet you are acting like this is a great insult to you when none of the Americans are.

2) You are NOT under the age of 18. You have only stated "imagine you were 14 or 15" which I did, and I gave you an answer which you accepted.

3) Lastly and most importantly: In Ontario, where you live, ESRB ratings are legally enforced and you have not mentioned any horrible apocalyptic results of this: http://www.ofrb.gov.on.ca/english/page19.htm

Seek, anything that happens down there will affect us. It really doesn't matter if we incorporate the same laws they do. The fact of the matter is, we have about 1/10th the market of the US and are more of an afterthought, evidenced by the fact that we often don't get a lot of the lesser stuff (we have to get EB or some smaller stores to import in Electroplankton or the SF Anniversary controllers) and often only get the leftovers (we got WAY less Guitar Heros and Phoenix Wrights proportionately than the US).

So, if these laws pass and there aren't as many mature games released in the US, it's not like we're magically going to get more of them produced solely for the Canadian market. At best we'll get some imported stuff they might not, but if they're not made for the American market that means they're not made for the Canadian market.

And my argument the whole time has been that this will lead to a dramatic decrease and maybe even complete lack of Mature games on the market as we're likely going to see large retailers not even carry 18+ games as those are the equivalent of AO now. That's what the wording of the 18+ is if you read that Gamespot article I posted a while back. No sales to under 18 is what AO is and is what 18+ is. It's a HUGE change as Mature is a suggestion. Also, let's not forget that we're talking about federal enforcement and not the currently voluntary one in the US.

So, to answer your questions directly (I didn't quote as it would be too long):

1) It's not an insult to me, I'm just worried about the effect of something like this become law on the selection of product I will have. As I stated above, I get affected the same way whether I'm an American or not. I'm an adult, I want to choose. But if you stifle the development of these mature games long before the industry has reached a mature enough stage in the social conscious to carry "adult only" games, my selection will be severly limited.

2) I am not a selfish person, so I don't look at this purely as what is good for me (which, incidentally, is the problem with how people vote, but that's another huge argument on its own). As a 14 or 15 year old, I knew the difference between real and fake so I could play or watch anything and not have it affect me. Now, those same 14 or 15 year olds will have someone tell them that any sort of violence below that of a TV14+ rated TV show or the local news is "not appropriate" by the federal government, not exactly an unbiased source. They won't be able to choose as the choice will be made for them: you can't have it. So these kids will have to rely on parents or other elders to buy it for them.

3) Already answered this one above

And on a related note, a look at the games I have been playing over the past half year shows that there are basically no Mature games other than MGS3 (Guitar Hero, Castlevania: Aria, DS stuff, Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga, Capcom Classics). I don't play that many mature rated games in general. But that doesn't mean that I want the selection stifled by some bible-thumpers in power, even if it hardly affects me. It's the principle of the matter that I don't like, not its affect on me.

Zeus wrote: if these laws pass and there aren't as many mature games released in the US

I didn't read anything anywhere about releasing fewer M-rated games in the US. Do you have any proof that this is happening?

Zeus wrote:And my argument the whole time has been that this will lead to a dramatic decrease and maybe even complete lack of Mature games on the market as we're likely going to see large retailers not even carry 18+ games as those are the equivalent of AO now. That's what the wording of the 18+ is if you read that Gamespot article I posted a while back. No sales to under 18 is what AO is and is what 18+ is. It's a HUGE change as Mature is a suggestion. Also, let's not forget that we're talking about federal enforcement and not the currently voluntary one in the US.

There is absolutely nothing in the article about M-rated games being taken off the market. Nor is there anything that even suggests that this is a possibility.

Zeus wrote:1) It's not an insult to me, I'm just worried about the effect of something like this become law on the selection of product I will have. As I stated above, I get affected the same way whether I'm an American or not. I'm an adult, I want to choose. But if you stifle the development of these mature games long before the industry has reached a mature enough stage in the social conscious to carry "adult only" games, my selection will be severly limited.

I have no idea why you think this. I don't think any videogame publisher or store has said anything about releasing a different number of M-rated games if this law is passed. There is also no evidence to suggest that they will. This is why I am not worried about anything.

Zeus wrote:2) I am not a selfish person, so I don't look at this purely as what is good for me (which, incidentally, is the problem with how people vote, but that's another huge argument on its own). As a 14 or 15 year old, I knew the difference between real and fake so I could play or watch anything and not have it affect me. Now, those same 14 or 15 year olds will have someone tell them that any sort of violence below that of a TV14+ rated TV show or the local news is "not appropriate" by the federal government, not exactly an unbiased source. They won't be able to choose as the choice will be made for them: you can't have it. So these kids will have to rely on parents or other elders to buy it for them.

Why do you feel that 14 or 15 year old kids should have the right to buy whatever games they want if their parents don't want them to play certain games?

Zeus wrote:3) Already answered this one above

Then why do you feel that it's alright for 14 or 15 year old kids in the US to buy whatever games they want, but think it's not an issue in Ontario where you actually live? Why not complain about the laws in Ontario that are already in place? You also talk about 14 and 15 year olds, what about 9 or 10 year old kids? Do you think THEY should be able to buy M rated games with extreme violence and gore in them as well?

Zeus wrote:And on a related note, a look at the games I have been playing over the past half year shows that there are basically no Mature games other than MGS3 (Guitar Hero, Castlevania: Aria, DS stuff, Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga, Capcom Classics). I don't play that many mature rated games in general. But that doesn't mean that I want the selection stifled by some bible-thumpers in power, even if it hardly affects me. It's the principle of the matter that I don't like, not its affect on me.

No one is limiting your selection, you are over the age of 18, they are limiting the selection of games to kids 18 years old or younger whose parents don't want them playing the games in the first place. The reason why these laws are coming into consideration is because stores are actually selling these games to minors and parents, who do not want their kids playing these games, are getting angry about it. Greedy people who work in stores (like Futureshop for example) who just want to get their commission, want to get their extra few bucks for a sale, so they don't care what they sell to minors. Stores which sell games to minors SHOULD receive fines the same way they would if they sold cigarettes to minors.

Anyways, as a conclusion: I do not really think you'll have anything to worry about. I really do think you are over-reacting on a law that is probably quite good to have passed.