The Shrine

So I've had my WoW account for a year and some change now, and I am seriously wondering when I will quit. I only really play when my guild is raiding, and I am not a huge fan of leveling an Alt (but i have been working on a dwarven hunter a lil bit). I have seen Onyxia go down, I have seen Rag go down, I've seen Hakkar go down. We are finally beginning BWL and I will see more stuff drop within the month. But what, I play a new dungeon for gear that is better to do the next dungeon, and then with said gear I may do PvP for more gear.

Is it me or do all MMO's just fail in the end? Raid this, raid that. It has been the same since EQ. I'd like to hear an argument otherwise....

Yet we all hop to the newest one each time, waiting for the next patch or expansion to fix it and add more to somethign that is going nowhere. But I guess the same could be argued for FPS and RTS. I could play the same maps or matches over and over and just use slight variations in strategy....

bah...

MMOs haven't failed at gameplay, but they have failed at storytelling, at least in my opinion so far.

I talked about this in #gamedev one afternoon, and I identified two major problems, one of which is harder than the other.

The first problem is the difficulty of making each player somehow feel special, or feel they have a place, in a world designed for thousands of players. It's not possible for every player to be "the chosen one" or whatever RPG hero you'd like to come up with. This is a solvable problem, I think, though - instead of the hack and grind of present MMO's, one has to be made with enough interesting things in the details to keep even average players happy, and give them a sense of being a real part of the world.

The second problem is harder, and is described quite adequately by the word "griefing". It's hard to stage what amounts to a grand collaborative story when you will almost certainly have a small minority of players whose only aim is to wreck the story for everyone else. One thing I thought of is allowing bandits and other griefing-sort-of-roles to be played by players instead of people (I've heard EVE Online does something similar), but I don't think it would solve the problem, because griefers aren't truly out to PK - they really are out to screw up others' enjoyment however they can. I have a feeling that if griefing was set up so that a certain type of griefing worked well within the system, a certain percentage of the griefers would fuck the system up in other ways.

I do think this is at least a partially solvable problem - sadly, there may not be a complete solution, granting any type of free will (and an MMO is a kind of it) always carries with it the ability to use that free will completely counter to the best aims of the system - but I haven't come up with any really good solutions yet. If you guys think of anything, definitely post it - I'd be soooo interested to hear it.

Anyway, that's my little interjection on the subject.

I remember back when "MMO's" were called Online RPG's. Anyways, things have changed now.

I have a similar thing with a game caled Utopia, when I started playing I always wondered when I would stop...... That was back in 1998 =P

I am a lifer when it comes to Utopia. Right now my Kingdom has come closer to taking the triple crown on the main server than any Kingdom has come in history:

#1 for NW
#1 for Land
#4 for Honor
We have fought 8 wars, 2 we had to withdraw from, and 6 war wins, no fake wars.

There's one Kingdom who rivals us, and that is one called Brute Force (second for Honor, fourth for land and NW).

Okay, here's a radical idea: you're finished with the game. You've played all the game has to offer.

Kupek wrote:Okay, here's a radical idea: you're finished with the game. You've played all the game has to offer.

It doesn't work. It's like quiting smoking cold turkey, VERY few can do it. They need intervention.

Sadly, that's not even a joke.....

End-game burn out is a particularly tricky issue for WOW, because your character is the only thing you're really invested in. This works out okay for levels 1-59, because you're steadily improving your character by levelling and acquiring gear. It works for a certain amount of time at 60, because you can still improve your character with better gear (although it loses a lot of players at 60, because not everybody digs WOW's means of gear progression).

But beyond gear progression for your character there's very little to do at 60, because the world is so static. My only other reference point for MMOs is UO, which as well as character progression had a world that was actually mutable. I imagine that other MMOs might have an evolving story that keeps you involved in the game. WOW doesn't really have this, just constant character improvement.

It's a shame, because grind aside, WOW really is a kickass game. The mechanics are solid, it has really fun, mostly fair PVP, and there's a lot of content there. Just not enough. They've deployed a boatload since release, and the expansion will help, but I think the game needs more than just more of the same to maintain its current massive and mostly happy player base. Housing for a start, and expanded tradeskills would be nice .

Zeus wrote:

Kupek wrote:Okay, here's a radical idea: you're finished with the game. You've played all the game has to offer.

It doesn't work. It's like quiting smoking cold turkey, VERY few can do it. They need intervention.

Sadly, that's not even a joke.....

Yeah it's pretty nuts, I have guildmates that ditch school/class to stay logged in and do absolutely nothing.

Other guildmates just sit in front of Ironforge all night long, and don't log, they just sit there dueling or watching other ppl duel until 6AM.

The Seeker wrote:I remember back when "MMO's" were called Online RPG's. Anyways, things have changed now.

I have a similar thing with a game caled Utopia, when I started playing I always wondered when I would stop...... That was back in 1998 =P

I am a lifer when it comes to Utopia. Right now my Kingdom has come closer to taking the triple crown on the main server than any Kingdom has come in history:

#1 for NW
#1 for Land
#4 for Honor
We have fought 8 wars, 2 we had to withdraw from, and 6 war wins, no fake wars.

There's one Kingdom who rivals us, and that is one called Brute Force (second for Honor, fourth for land and NW).

Traded into Playboys? Pfft, I played midway through the age. Managed to turn my lil' kingdom from a shithole ghetto, into a half decent KD - but I'm facing too much resistence to change, so I'll ditch them at the end of this age.

As for WoW, all MMORPGs are like this. That's why most of us Game Hop (sadly, nothing new is on the horizon), usually right around the point we can ebay our accounts for ridiculous cash.

The only MMO I've seen do it close to right is UO (pre-nerf/expansion) - and that's because they completely removed all of the grind.

I've been in PB's since we had that Kingdom a couple years ago. It seemed like the logical thing to do, I didn't really have the time to "play" anymore, and Playboys have always had the door open to me even since before they were called Playboys (5+ years ago). I would like to start in a smaller Kingdom and build it up later when I have a bit more free time on my hands. There is nothing more fufilling in Utopia than carving out a Kingdom of rabid butchers that will kill anything you want them to. The only downside to Playboys is getting phone calls at 4:30 in the morning because we're waving someone =P

Hmm...

I've had an idea floating in my head for an MMORPG type game (or a single player Morrowind type game) where the largest focus is on change. Particularly quick change.

The idea is that first and foremost, eliminate the level grind. Any leveling system would be focused on constant and (relatively) easy progress. I don't intend that anyone would get to level 60 in an hour, but that the player will see constant and regular progress in their character. Each time they play, by the time they log off they will have seen their stats increase, even minutely, gained new skills/abilities, etc. This concept may or may not even require a level system.

A second idea I had, which ties into the "quick change" concept, is the idea of "shortcuts". However, all shortcuts come at some sort of price to the character.

For example, you might get a "Lich's Robe" that increases your character's magical power to unbelievable proportions, to the point where you could single handedly scorch a village with a flick of the wrist. However, as a result, the character will contract a magical disease that slowly rots him away, a la leprosy. So the trade off is that for immense magical power, he must sacrifice his body.

Another example, where the trade off may be taken in a less tangible means:

Say you're some big bad ass warrior who is looting a cave. Then you find this really evil looking sword, the inscription of the sword is, uh, lets say it's called "Soul Edge". So he picks it up... and nothing. No damage, no metamorphasis, nothing. Nothing, that is, except a very bitching sword.

After having a few hours of fun, life calls to him, so he log out. The next day, you log in, and his character is standing in the middle of a village, covered in the blood of NPCs and PCs alike. "WTF happened?" they might ask, well that was the trade off. He lost control of his character.

Quick change would also apply to the world. Maybe someone who levels enough and/or grabs enough powerful artifacts can start wrecking citys. Heck, maybe a player can get powerful enough to start digging craters out of the planet and even threaten it's utter destruction. Of course, other players and/or NPCs will want to stop this, and this uber-powerful character also has to race against the self-destructive attributes of the powerful artifacts that he uses.

So while few other players could beat him in a battle, if they buy enough time, he might be consumed by his own artifacts before his plan pops off.

Clearly in such a destructive (although there would be other things to do other than run around, looking for artifacts, and blowing people up) world, players will die. A lot. However, the idea is this won't be such a problem because a new character can level up quickly or perhaps find some sort of artifact that will rocket him up to the top. Also this may mean that staying alive is not just a matter of power, but also a matter of personal skill at the game.

I mention this because it may be a solution to the two problems that Nev pointed out:

1. Players can feel special because either they develop their character in a unique way (ideally there will be enough minute ways to develop a character through stats and skills that the player will be satisfied) or they may have found that one bitching artifact that does such and such way better than anyone else or indeed, any other artifacts can (or at least, it's the best that has been discovered).

2. The game will incorperate griefing. How better to ruin everyone else's game than to blow up the fucking planet? However to do so, you must work within the game, and within the evolving story.

Of course, it's not perfect, and it won't stop someone from sitting on a street corner and cursing at everyone in leet, but it's an idea.

And since I have no programming skill of note, I figure I certainly won't be making this game.

I've never played an MMO, so this is basically just being pulled out of my ass from what I've read about them, but I think it would be really interesting if a company had enough balls to put out a game where the following rules would apply:

-Each account is allowed one PC at a time.
-If your PC dies, he/she is gone forever and you must start a new character.

The ramifications of those rules on both the design of the story and the effects it would have on the in-game society would be staggering, wouldn't they?

Making an MMO like that is on my list of "things to do before I die", Agent - the ability to make alts would probably be a privilege that one would have to quest for, or whatnot, and I'd probably try to follow something like a "hireling" model instead, wherein high-level characters can have followers, and if the main character dies you can switch to one of them.

However, this all is waaaay back in the list, behind other a lot of other things, the first of which is "Don't get eaten alive by a bigger, stronger game company before you make it out of the gate."

The spot I'm at in the game industry now is a lot like the first stage of gameplay from that Spore video, only with a lot more things that want to eat us.

BTW, I haven't forgotten about the game store thread...still looking for a free hour or two to write something up.

The Seeker wrote:I've been in PB's since we had that Kingdom a couple years ago. It seemed like the logical thing to do, I didn't really have the time to "play" anymore, and Playboys have always had the door open to me even since before they were called Playboys (5+ years ago). I would like to start in a smaller Kingdom and build it up later when I have a bit more free time on my hands. There is nothing more fufilling in Utopia than carving out a Kingdom of rabid butchers that will kill anything you want them to. The only downside to Playboys is getting phone calls at 4:30 in the morning because we're waving someone =P

So what is your KD# this age? Me, I landed in - 10:27 - a ghetto (albeit with nice, friendly players)...maybe I'll try to teach a few noobs, then move on again.

kali o. wrote:

The Seeker wrote:I've been in PB's since we had that Kingdom a couple years ago. It seemed like the logical thing to do, I didn't really have the time to "play" anymore, and Playboys have always had the door open to me even since before they were called Playboys (5+ years ago). I would like to start in a smaller Kingdom and build it up later when I have a bit more free time on my hands. There is nothing more fufilling in Utopia than carving out a Kingdom of rabid butchers that will kill anything you want them to. The only downside to Playboys is getting phone calls at 4:30 in the morning because we're waving someone =P

So what is your KD# this age? Me, I landed in - 10:27 - a ghetto (albeit with nice, friendly players)...maybe I'll try to teach a few noobs, then move on again.

21:28 the Flaming Fists

Province Fist of Pain

That's me.