The Shrine

Ivalice, I think, is the richest world Square ever came up with (probably because it spans more than one game), and frankly, I don't like the way it turned out in FF12. I don't like the meaningless juxtaposition of technology with high fantasy that Square has been doing since FF7. You might as well say the Mist is like the Force to explain why you've high fantasy equipment, fighting high fantasy monsters, and then you got the equivalent of star destroyers and TIE fighters floating around raining down doom from above. It's one thing Tactics alluded to a time when technology is abundant. It's another to shamelessly mix high fantasy with no regard to how little sense it makes with technology.

I don't like the invasion of non-human races in the world of Ivalice, a world that has always asserted itself as only for human. It's like you can't have a RPG just for the human guys because it'd be prejudice against non-human races these days. I enjoyed that Tactics and Vagrant story didn't have cuddly or furry races to look at. The game even says Ivalice is the world for Humes but walk into any town in the game you'd see a wider variety of races than California.

I don't like the lack of any of the game's alleged fedual city-states actually looking like a feudal city-state. Well, there is a city that reminds me of Zeltennia of FFT. For me it also happens to be the only town with a meaningful theme. Actually, it is awfully reminiscent of Ovelia's scene (which is played in the Ruins of Zeltennia): sad, grandiose, elegant, and cheerful. It's everything a city could be, and is. I'd have to assume they want to showcase all the cool cities but to me, none of the cool high tech cities belong in Ivalice, and a city that looks like it should belong in Star Wars doesn't impress me. And no, I don't like the Viera nature friendly city either. Ivalice is not a world where cities coexist with nature. They might not be mowing down trees and spewing smog/mako/whatever in the air (like say, Midgar) but a city is very definitely not part of nature in Ivalice.

That is not to say FF12 is a bad game, but it seems like they're merely leveraging the existing world of Ivalice because it'd take too much trouble to come up with their own version of Star Wars. But the Star Wars clone world of FF12 is no Ivalice. The game may say they're the same place, but I sure don't see any similarities, except one city.

Actually, it fits in perfectly with FFT's Ivalice. FFT's world has an airship fairling civilization which very much resembled FF12.

On the locations. FF12 is centered around the continent of Ordalia. Final Fantasy Tactics took place to the West of Ordalia. Lea Monde is located somewhere in Valendia.

The way I see it is that the other races were considered Monsters originally, and were not to be included within world politics. Final Fantasy tactics does have other races besides humans, they just do not take place in the world politics. They often accompany bandits and such.


As for the time frame. I think of Final Fantasy Tactics taking place somewhere around the time of Raithwell. Mainly because Raithwell was a very powerful King in Ordalia, and somehow the nation of Ordalia defeated the Empire of Ivalice in the 50 years war in Final Fantasy Tactics. I am not sure on this, but I think that the Rozarian Empire, located to the West of the world of FF12, is located in the same area that Final Fantasy Tactics takes place in.

I suppose we'll never know though.

Despite Ivalice being quite a well developed world, it still is not quite as advanced as the world of Ogre Battle; also created by Matsuno.

I agree with Don with regards to the odd technology/fantasy mix. FF7 was unique in this way, and was really cool, but now we have seen it in FF8 and FF10. I liked how FFT went back to the world being mainly medieval and was hoping FF12 would continue that since you play at the same place. I know there is a huge time gap between FFT and FF12, but i think they overdeveloped Ivalice during that period.

FF7's technology level is about identical to FF6's. So FF7 was not new at all. The existence of technology has been a staple of the series since FF1. It certainly was not new with FF7.

Also, as I explained, FF12 might actually take place before FF Tactics. Since FF Tactics actually takes place in a world where civilization is rebuilding from destruction, and the past civilization did have technology almost identical to what is seen in FF12. Though it could also take place in the future, and there is nothing that would suggest that their civilization could not return to its golden age.

Don Wang wrote:Bitch bitch, whine whine, I like to complain a lot

Honestly, Don, have you ever thought of providing constructive criticism on occasion?

A lot of people worked very hard on the game. I have issues with the little bit of the plot I've seen so far as well, but you just take bitching to the next level.

"I don't like x" and "I don't like x". That's really nice and super. Is there anything about the game that you actually *enjoyed*, however?

I have a better write-up of my theory on Ivalice history in the spoiler thread.

FF6's technology was nowhere near FF7, IMO. FF7's intoduction to advanced technology into world did seem new. Yeah, FF^ had the MagiTek armor, but that is about all i can think of right off hand. I dont remember abundances of steam engines, factories, or lots of guns in FF6...

Flip wrote:FF6's technology was nowhere near FF7, IMO. FF7's intoduction to advanced technology into world did seem new. Yeah, FF^ had the MagiTek armor, but that is about all i can think of right off hand. I dont remember abundances of steam engines, factories, or lots of guns in FF6...

So you don't recall Vector, Zozo, Narshe, Figaro Castle, railroads, airships, or the guns of the Imperial troops and robotic guards?

only as anomolies to the otherwise undeveloped world. The tech in FF7 was more normal and far more integrated into everyday life. They were nowhere near identical.

Flip wrote:only as anomolies to the otherwise undeveloped world. The tech in FF7 was more normal and far more integrated into everyday life. They were nowhere near identical.

I don't think you are accurately remembering FF6 or FF7. My evidence of this is that you completely forgot about every technological aspect of FF6 except Magitech armour; not even remembering the Empire which utilizes them. If you recall FF7's world, it only utilizes technology in Midgar and a handful of other locations. The rest of the world is very low tech. That doesn't really make it any more advanced than FF6.

i defenitely didnt play FF7 as much as 6, and havent played 6 in a while so the memory is rusty, but the fact that that perception exists inside me makes it hard for me to change my opinion.

I'd like to hear what others thought, did anyone walk away from those games thinking FF7 had more technology? Maybe a poule is in order (weee!) to decide. I have fond memories of this board thinking WWE is more redneck han golf.

Would you agree that FF8's technology is vastly superior, as a whole, to FF7's?

The world of Ivalice is definitely the standard 'back in the old days there was technology and people screwed up and now there is no more.' That's why in FFT there are no airships or any technology but the final fight takes place on the 'Graveyard of Airships'. There's no indication that airships exist anywhere in the world of Ivalice in FFT besides perhaps referenced in the Tavern jobs you send people out to because they're dead along with the civilization that once fostered them.

Which is fine. No one says Ivalice always has to be a feudal city-state nation forever. The problem is that all these technology makes no sense in the land-based army warfare that seems central to the game's conflict. You in real life would have a better chance now trying to shoot down a bomber then a level 100 character in FF12 trying to take out a standard fighter (say, like the one in the tutorial) because at least right now you can go buy a missile launcher and hope you get really lucky. The only way you could do that in FF12 is if a fighter plane with seemingly considerably longer range than any bow, gun, or magic would come down to melee range (like the tutorial) allow you to beat on it until it blows up. It's almost comical you're slogging through Judges, dragons, undead, or whatever obstacles necessary to defeat the Archdean Empire but all they have to do is send a couple fighters and you'd have no chance of ever defeating them since you're on the ground for about 99% of the time. It evokes the image of Civilization 1 where Knights defeat tanks and bombers because they've the city wall bonus, except while it's merely a gaming inconvenience in Civilization, it's reality in FF12. It's almost comical in the introduction you got a battle directly from Star Wars with cruisers raining doom on each other and impenetrable force shields (er, Palings), and then you've chocobo cavalry beating each other with swords that's supposed to make a difference never mind just having a fighter shot down and crash can take out a huge chunk of an army, let alone having any of that aerial firepower aimed at the ground. What Dalmasca needs is not the Sword of Kings or Nethicite or heroes. They need to invest in some battleships.

As for FF7 vs FF6, FF7 technology is integrated and it doesn't assert itself as an abnormally advanced technology. You might as well just think of Mako as nuclear power and everything is quite consistent minus the distribution of the said technology, but this even makes some sense because you don't want Mako Reactors all over the place and it's pretty clear technology doesn't happen without them.

FF6 doesn't assert itself as a technology developed or integrated world. What they have is abnormal technology, typically called 'ancient technology' or, in this case, 'Magitek'. There's none better example of this than FF4. How do we get to the moon? We pray and the ancient Big Whale (which is obviously a spaceship of some sorts) will take us there. Who built it? The ancients! Why does it work? Because it's ancient technology! There's functionally no difference between the Big Whale and some kind of magical ritual that teleports you to the moon, except the latter would actually make more sense in most RPG worlds, including FF4.

In terms of technology marvels in RPG world, Figaro Castle's ability to mobilize an entire castle, burrow under ground, drill through solid rock, and then reappear miles away, is one of the most incredible feats of technology ever. Lesser villians and wannabe gods have fought for far less capability before meeting their demise. But this technology is not integrated. Why does Figaro Castle technology work? It just does. What powers the technology of Vector? It's Magitek. In this respect at least everything in FF12 supposedly needs a power source (Nethicite and Magicite) so at least the power comes from somewhere as opposed to just have stuff pop out of ground when you need it.

FF8 is a very well integrated technology world because it makes no attempt to assert itself as any kind of high fantasy world. Aside from the enemies being traditionally high-fantasy and the necessary high-fantasy weaponry of the protagonists (and even then you could argue Gunblade is not exactly like a sword), it might as well be a ~2200 AD world. All the warfare makes sense within its world. To attack a Garden you need another Garden. The moves and the countermoves in the Garden battle fits its world. Sure in the end Squall charged in and destroyed everything but that's to be expected.

At any rate, how do you define more technologically advanced? The most advanced city? Midgar is quite advanced. The most destructive weapons? Sister Ray is about as powerful as it gets (though I'd say Figaro drilling through solid rocks as a vehicle probably requires even more power). How well the technology is distributed? Esthar is far more developed than Windmill or FH. I guess you can say FF8's technology is at least reasonably distributed and don't have any city that obviously missed the boat on technology unless there's a clear reason on why there would be no technology in the said city in the first place.

Narshe's mines are coal mine, that suggests immediately that the Northern continent uses steam power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNzVhx08jEk

This video also shows Vector, as well as Vector's airforce in action. Vector is clearly a technologically advanced city which is proof that FF6 used technology before FF7 did. Actually, if anything, FF12's technology more resembles FF6's than anything.

Noone is arguing that there wasnt technolgy. Hell, they all had airships. But, FF7 was the first game that people walked away thinking "Wow, this is much more sci-fi/fantasy than the pure fantasy of the past games".

I think most people are of this opinion. FF7 took fantasy to a new sci-fi level and FF12 is doing it, too. I was hoping more for a game like FF9 where fantasy is the main world element. Like Don said, "I don't like the meaningless juxtaposition of technology with high fantasy that Square has been doing since FF7."

Flip wrote:Noone is arguing that there wasnt technolgy. Hell, they all had airships. But, FF7 was the first game that people walked away thinking "Wow, this is much more sci-fi/fantasy than the pure fantasy of the past games".

I think most people are of this opinion. FF7 took fantasy to a new sci-fi level and FF12 is doing it, too. I was hoping more for a game like FF9 where fantasy is the main world element. Like Don said, "I don't like the meaningless juxtaposition of technology with high fantasy that Square has been doing since FF7."

FF12 is fairly medieval for the most part. It has less technology in it than even FF6. It is really only the airships (which actually do not appear that often), Archadia, the most advanced location resembles a Victorian aged city on the technological level of Narshe (though much larger, obviously). Combat is done primarilly with swords, bows, and spears. They do not use guns or lasers. As far as how advanced it goes, it is between FF4 and FF6.

Actually, the game itself is fairly similar to Skies of Arcadia. There are too many similarities for it to be an accident. This is certainly not a bad thing.

I actually think that FF12 takes place FAR FAR before FFT. Isn't there an abundance of documentation in FFT outlining an ancient civilization in Ivalice with resources such as airships? Hell, even the last boss of FFT was in an airship graveyard.

And yes, I look at FF12 to be moreso akin to FFTA than FFT. Though the technology definitely wasn't present in FFTA like it is in FF12.

OracIe wrote:I actually think that FF12 takes place FAR FAR before FFT. Isn't there an abundance of documentation in FFT outlining an ancient civilization in Ivalice with resources such as airships? Hell, even the last boss of FFT was in an airship graveyard.

And yes, I look at FF12 to be moreso akin to FFTA than FFT. Though the technology definitely wasn't present in FFTA like it is in FF12.

The evidence against that, at least what I think is the existence of the Kiltean religion. It seems that it is very old in FF12, older than Raithwall. The Kiltean religion exists in Vagrant Story as well, and the origin of it is explained; though it seems to point towards the founder living a long time before, possibly thousands of years. Though, with the existence of airships, and civilization strongly resembling that of the ancient civilizations of the FFT world, that is fairly strong evidence to go against it.

I'm not entirely familiar with FFTA, but I do know that the different races which live in FFTA's world are in FF12.

I'm not sure how you can possibly get the idea that FFT takes place after FF12 when Ivalice is the by the book 'fall from ancient technology' world.

Like others and I have said, the end of FFT takes place on the 'Graveyard of Airships'. That implies airships are a thing of the past because if they're not, you'd have seen them in the game already.

My main sources for believing that FFT takes place AFTER FF12 is because a) Airships are ancient technology in FFT and b) because moogles are extinct in FFT.

Hell, I could even go as far as to say that nethicite strongly parallels the idea of the Zodiac Stones. A stone that takes control of a human, giving supernatural powers at the cost of their free will.

I find your post contradictory, Don. If airships are a thing of the past in FFT, doesn't that imply that it took place after FFXII?

Err, I missed a 'does not' in there somewhere. It was replying to Seeker's assertion that FFT takes place after FF12.

Oh man, I need to replay FFTA. I've got the feeling there are wells of lore in that game that need to be tapped to make real sense of Ivalice.

Which is insane, given the "It was all a dream!" nature of FFTA :\.

FFTA = CS Lewis series. It just takes forever to get into the story, or so I am told, I have not played long enough to really know.