The Shrine

I don't like Capcom as a company simply because they make great games that are totally ruined by the difficulty. Sometimes it borders on sadism. Who makes these corporate decisions? There is surely some mandate or some CEO that looks at a game and says "Hey, take out that difficulty meter and have it stuck on the ultra-hard setting." Dead Rising is one of these games.

Ninja Gaiden was hard, but you had so much fun playing it that it didn't matter, and it didn't really get that hard until the 3rd or so stage. With Dead Rising, they start you out on this crazy objective dash with a insane time limit, and enemies that kill you on sight if you dare go outside at night. (Never mind that they only way to escort these brain-dead survivors IS TO GO OUTSIDE!)

So, essentially, the entire game is a big huge pile of escort missions. The gaming community has universally shunned escort missions because of the stupid AI. Usually if a game has some sort of escort mission thingy in it, it is either the hardest and/or the worst part of the game.

Oh, and we haven't even got to several other issues, like the lack of save points (and the fact that save points don't heal you), the lack of any decent food around (even in the food court it's scarce), and some of the horrible weapons in the game (soccer ball, guns, soda cans, purses, plants, etc., etc., etc.). Sure, everything is a weapon, but that just means you have a wide selection of crap tools that break in three hits.

Why do people like this game? I've played Viewtiful Joe, Resident Evil 4, and many other Capcom games that are Capcom-hard, but this one doesn't even make sense with how it works. I understand the mechanics, but even hard games need a learning curve to pace the difficulty. This one basically gives you a pea shooter and lets you loose on thousands of zombies.

The real question is: why the hell are you playing Dead Rising when you haven't beaten Bioshock yet?

Zeus wrote:The real question is: why the hell are you playing Dead Rising when you haven't beaten Bioshock yet?

He has. I just did yesterday too.

I bought Dead Rising too... and you touch on what I had wrong with it and why I've never gotten more than 4 hours into the game. Sine, I found it funny yesterday that we had the same # of achievements in Dead Rising... and now that I know why that's even funnier

Tessian wrote:Sine, I found it funny yesterday that we had the same # of achievements in Dead Rising... and now that I know why that's even funnier :P

LOL, yesterday, when I was writing the post, I was saying to Shellie "Tessian doesn't even like it, so I'm definitely not the only one." "What makes you think that?" "Well, he only has 30 achievement points on the game, which you get at practically the beginning to the game."

SineSwiper wrote:With Dead Rising, they start you out on this crazy objective dash with a insane time limit, and enemies that kill you on sight if you dare go outside at night. (Never mind that they only way to escort these brain-dead survivors IS TO GO OUTSIDE!)

So, essentially, the entire game is a big huge pile of escort missions. The gaming community has universally shunned escort missions because of the stupid AI. Usually if a game has some sort of escort mission thingy in it, it is either the hardest and/or the worst part of the game.

The AI is dumb, but it's not the worst I've seen. Using the rally point (R Trigger+Y) as opposed to just pushing Y works much better in guiding survivors.

SineSwiper wrote:Oh, and we haven't even got to several other issues, like the lack of save points (and the fact that save points don't heal you), the lack of any decent food around (even in the food court it's scarce), and some of the horrible weapons in the game (soccer ball, guns, soda cans, purses, plants, etc., etc., etc.). Sure, everything is a weapon, but that just means you have a wide selection of crap tools that break in three hits.

Who says save points have to heal you? And your comment about there not being any decent food around is absolutely ridiculous. You can get an UNLIMITED number of Orange Juice cartons (4 or 5 blocks of health) from the upstairs food court (well, it's one cafe with a bunch of tables) in Paradise Plaza. Is that the name of it? The area you enter right outside of the base. Milk is also good and can be found in almost every area of the mall.

As for weapons, all you need is a few baseball bats for early game, then you can graduate to katanas. The baseball bat is useful throughout the whole game, and they're everywhere. You can get a katana on top of the orange awning connected to the aforementioned cafe with the orange juice. Once you get further in the game, there's a store that has plenty of katanas. You can increase the longevity of the weapons with books, some of which the effects stack with other books (ie- there's a one-handed chainsaw you can get later that lasts three or six, can't remember, times longer with two particular books).

Also, give your followers weapons whenever possible. They'll make better use of handguns than you will. The handguns in the game are weak and the iffy auto-aiming system does not help. Shotguns are good, but don't give them to followers because they might hit you with the spread.

SineSwiper wrote:Why do people like this game? I've played Viewtiful Joe, Resident Evil 4, and many other Capcom games that are Capcom-hard, but this one doesn't even make sense with how it works. I understand the mechanics, but even hard games need a learning curve to pace the difficulty. This one basically gives you a pea shooter and lets you loose on thousands of zombies.

You don't HAVE to save everybody. In fact, you can't save everybody in one playthrough. And if you're repeatedly getting killed, use the tips I gave you above or go read a FAQ. I never had as much trouble with the game as you seem to be having.

Dead Rising is still one of the best games on the 360 and I like it because it's original in execution (not so much in concept since it rips off Dawn of the Dead), the B-movie feel of it, it plays well when you get used to it, and it looks and sounds really really good.

I think you kinda miss the most glaring "bug" in the game: If you need to rescue people, and the only way to do that is to go outside, why is there a big fucking car full of convicts that gun you and your party outside the moment you step out in the dark? The last time I saw such an unfair situation in a game was when I triggered some in-game copy protection that was SUPPOSED to kill you.

Sorry, I couldn't find the rocket launcher in the mall to destroy the car... Oh, wait, wrong game...

Black Lotus wrote:Who says save points have to heal you?

It does in most games with fixed save points. I fucked up my game and had to restart when I was stuck with one point of health left. I could have gone to the food court, but then somebody would have died.

Black Lotus wrote:And your comment about there not being any decent food around is absolutely ridiculous. You can get an UNLIMITED number of Orange Juice cartons (4 or 5 blocks of health) from the upstairs food court (well, it's one cafe with a bunch of tables) in Paradise Plaza. Is that the name of it? The area you enter right outside of the base. Milk is also good and can be found in almost every area of the mall.

Well, the problem is that you have to go to these areas to get it. You can only hold five items and most of that it reserved for the weapons that break after 5 hits. If you run out, you could go back and get some more, but:

1) The food court is about the only place with any decent food.
2) Going to the food court (or the 2nd floor of Paradise) wastes time, and every second wasted means that a bunch of people get killed.

The convicts can be avoided, you just need to time it better. Easy way to kill them too is to stand behind a tree and get the front of the truck stuck on the opposite side (they won't move), then peek out from the side of the tree and shoot the gunner. From there you can katana the driver and the passenger (they won't do shit).


Really, DON'T worry about saving everybody. Even if you only save half of the survivors you're still going to be at a good enough level to beat the game, and most of the survivors don't net you anything aside from experience.

I didn't save one person other that the dude who was right there on the ceiling. The game was hard as fuck, but it just requires a lot of patience and I also hated the bosses. Then you get infinity mode and can just dick around which is fun, but all the bosses are out so it is also kind of hard and lame... I hope they make a second one that doesn't revolve around getting to certain objectives at a certain time.... like the demo, where you can just dick around and kill zombies for a while if you want.

My biggest problem with the game is the time limits... I just HATE games with time limits.

SineSwiper wrote:The last time I saw such an unfair situation in a game was when I triggered some in-game copy protection that was SUPPOSED to kill you.

Ok now you got me curious, what clever game was that?

Tessian wrote:Ok now you got me curious, what clever game was that?

Alternate Reality, first RPG I played. One of the most interesting copy protections out there. The Dungeon Master series had, by far, the best copy protection I've seen in any game. Back when men were men, and you had to have your manual handy to play a game (Page 34, Paragraph 3, Word 5).

Haha I remember those copy protection stuff! Back when they hoped that copying the manual at your local library was too much effort.

I remember the one from Sam & Max... each time you started it up you had to dress them up like they were on Page X

Black Lotus wrote:The convicts can be avoided, you just need to time it better. Easy way to kill them too is to stand behind a tree and get the front of the truck stuck on the opposite side (they won't move), then peek out from the side of the tree and shoot the gunner. From there you can katana the driver and the passenger (they won't do shit).

That sounds more like an exploit than actual gameplay. How is a normal player supposed to figure this out?

More and more games seem to depend on the fact that the player has an Internet account and access to GameFAQs. I don't like this trend.

Dead Rising is a unique game and the primary reason people don't like it is based on the gripes Sine had (the same gripes I once had)...

But...

You AREN'T supposed to fight all those zombies (all you want to do is avoid em), you AREN'T supposed to save all those survivors (or even try your first time through), you AREN'T supposed to complete every case (outside of the main really). You AREN'T really even supposed to live your first few games, just do it for the EXP and levels. Players who try the above are going to find DR to be a frustrating game and likely never invest more than a few hours into it.

Once you figure out the game doesn't punish you for your own skill and choices, you'll have a lot more fun in Dead Rising. Start practicing AVOIDING things (like the zombies, the convicts that respawn, etc), learn that endless OJ spawns very near the security room, figure out how books work and play in a more relaxed fashion - you'll start to enjoy yourself.

What level should one strive to get to in order to accomplish the game alone, aside from all the other stuff?

Tessian wrote:What level should one strive to get to in order to accomplish the game alone, aside from all the other stuff?

Remember, the game has multiple endings. You can just play through at any level. If you are asking what level you need to be to do some of the harder stuff (survivors, convicts, achievements, etc)....well, that's individual....depends how good you are. The extra levels will unlock more health, more moves, more items slots, etc - all which will give ya an easier time surviving.

Play once through, normally and relaxed. Do what extras you can, but stay focused on the main story line. The EXP and practice you get the first time through will help you immensely on your next try.

Or you can just cheat and do the zombie genocider achievement, then wtfpwn the rest of the game.

On the issue of save points, it's pretty much a standard that they must heal you to max otherwise you might end up with a situation where you saved and can't possibly get out of the situation. It may be lame but unless the game has the ability to detect that saving the game will cause you trapped in a death loop forever, it has to be the way it works. In Shining Force EXA, before you save on any GeoFortress defense battle they will remind you that it is possible to get stuck in an unwinnable situation (neglect to level up your partner and not having an adequate training facility) so you should save your game in another slot.

What Sine describes with the game seems to be the same problem I have had with Megaman Zero (not directly from Capcom, but close enough). The game might say you're not SUPPOSED to get a rank of A/S but then the game rubs it in your face and basically says like 'if you didn't get rank A/S you suck and you're not entitled to the whole experience.' In both Z2 and Z3 not finishing the stage with rank A or higher prevents you from getting the EX skill of that stage, which in term makes things even harder. If you actually needed to use the Cyber Elves to pump up your stats the game will slap you forever for being a wuss and every person you talk to will remind you how much you suck at this game.

It's easy to make a game that offers X paths of nonlinearity but when you make one out to be definitely 'the best', those who do not or cannot get that feels shortchanged. No one says you have to get the 7 Chaos Emeralds in Sonic but the game basically laughs at you for sucking if you do not. If you're supposed to have choices, then make the choices actually fair. Chrono Trigger has 10 endings and none of them are 'better' than any other, which is why it's okay whether you've seen only 1 or all 10 endings. In some sense Star Ocean 2's 80 or whatever endings are like that too. You're not an inferior player or missing out something awesome if you didn't see the ending that features Rena pairing up with Ashton. Of course in SO2's case every ending is equally boring that you're not missing out on anything, but even in the case of CT where the endings clearly have thought put into them, I do not feel one is shortchanged or slighted for missing them. If you don't care about Magus and Frog fighting one last time you don't have to get the Magus vs Frog ending.

Games should not offer choices if it's not sincere about the validity of the choices. They might as well put a good old square yes/no question where answering the wrong choice results the question being repeated forever. Does anyone seriously believe you're supposed to kill Simon Belmont in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? I mean sure it has an ending, and he supposedly says some stuff, but do you really believe the game intended to end like this? Compare that to Chrono Trigger, the losing to Lavos ending. It sure looks like a valid way to end the game, even if that doesn't end with the heroes winning. Clearly there's some thoughts put into this ending to make it believe that the makers of the game wanted you to see it. Now that'd be a valid 'choice'.

Playing the game again, I found a way to get escorted survivors to safety easier-- Keep hitting Y. It's your "come here" signal, but I've found even with a throng of zombies between you and them... if you hit Y enough times they WILL get through the zombie patch, albeit somewhat damaged.

I think it's because hitting Y forces them to stop what they were doing and come to you... and when they hit zombies normally they stop to either fight or defend themselves... and this cancels that.

MUCH easier than trying to mow down EVERY damn zombie for them.

The R-Trigger+Y works better.

Black Lotus wrote:The R-Trigger+Y works better.

I find that required too much time... and didn't like being vulnerable when trying to pick a spot for them to go to

It takes a fraction of a second. Look where you want to send them, hold R, and hit Y.

The discussion over the save points is null, because you CAN'T be in an unwinnable situation for two reasons:

One, the restrooms cannot have zombies in them, and the hallways near them are almost always clear, or else very sparse.

Two, the main save point, in the security room, has tons of healing items right near it.

Three, dying is not a big deal, as you HAVE to die to better complete the game.

RentCavalier wrote:The discussion over the save points is null

Nope, you can easily put yourself in an unwinnable position-- have little health left when you save.

RentCavalier wrote: Two, the main save point, in the security room, has tons of healing items right near it.

Not after Day 1 it doesn't. You have to travel up to that restaurant on the 2nd floor of the first area to get any health-- and you can easily die between there and the security room if you don't have enough health. Hell just earlier today one of the cultists went suicide bomber on me and took out about 3 health... then when I got up another one ran up and shanked me.

There's really no reason anymore in today's games to NOT allow saving anytime. Obviously don't allow it during missions / boss battles... but I should be able to save a LOT more often than this game gives you the ability to.

I'm certain you can find food on the roof randomly in the boxes (like cabages or frozen veg), as well as the boxes in the elevator/storage room you enter from the roof.

I like the town portal style of saving ala Diablo 2 or Shining Force Neo/Exa. This also allows you to make even normal enemies arbitarily difficult without losing too much progress. If you start with the assumption that save point must heal you to full, then it is never possible to get worn down between save points because you can always run back to the previous save point. Therefore unless you want to have a 'gauntlet' type of event, there's no point to try to wear you down, so you might as well give people the ability to save anywhere. Having a town portal mechanism ensures you can never save in an unwinnable situation, since even if you town portal out of a death trap you can always just walk back the normal way.

*bump*

Okay, so I finally got back to this game and beat it. Played it again for the Zombie Genocider (to get the Blaster Gun) and then saved everybody in another game for the Saint achievement. Despite having fun with the game, I think the comments I've said before still stand. Here are my major gripes about the game:

Before I finally gave up on the game the first time, I had already restarted a few times and leveled up a little bit. However, the learning curve on this game is the most insane I've ever seen.

You start out with 5 health and 5 item slots. Just think about that. Just 5 item slots? That's madness.

The way you kill the convicts is a hack, not a legit way of defeating a boss. You have to know the map well enough to be able to get the powerful weapons and food.

Having Adam as such a critical boss in the game is kinda stupid. I missed him the first time and didn't get the shortcut or the best weapon in the game. I also didn't get the Maint key until the game forced me to go into that area (Case 7-2).

But, let's go back to the Small Chainsaw. To say that this weapon is powerful is a fucking understatement. It's the only weapon in the game to use all three weapon books, which gives it on the order of 8,000 swings (yes, literally, 300 * 3 * 3 * 3). Whoever said that melee is your most powerful weapon was full of shit. I don't get killed by zombies AT ALL with the chainsaw. It mows down everything in sight, unlike melee or the katana. Did I mention that it lasts forever? (I once saw it blink near the end of the game and I was fucking surprised. I had time to go all the way back to Wonderland and it was still blinking before I got another one.)

Why is this a bad thing? Because the separation between this weapon and everything else is just too wide. The next best weapon is the katana, and it only kills one at a time, and breaks too easily. If say, it still killed one at a time but lasted a long time, it wouldn't be so bad. Melee is pretty good, but you need to be at high-level, and even then, you will still get grabbed often. If guns had bullet upgrades, you would actually use them. The main thing is that you have to clear out a lot of zombies to get your survivors out of the way. Also...

The AI for the this game is the most broken I've ever seen. I've heard of pathing problems, but when you get a large group of 9 survivors and they are trying literally running in place next to the ledge they are trying to above, that's just fucking stupid. It's broken and the developers KNEW it was broken.

Beta Tester: "I'm getting a bunch of survivors to the ledge, and the only way I can get them to go up there is to bump into them over and over again until they, one at a time, eventually get to the ledge. This wastes a lot of time, which is something that you really punish me for."

Beta Tester: "Why is it that when I happen to not get all of them on the ledge and go to the Security Room, the remaining survivors are losing health in a zombieless area? I have to talk to this guy who's about to mutiny and he's wasting WAAAAY too much of my time, while my other survivors are losing health. Did they accidentally hit the elevator button or what? If I ignore the mutineer and go back to save my survivors, he automatically takes 11 of my other survivors."

Beta Tester: "I have to constantly hit the Y button over and over again to get these guys to co-operate. Even setting waypoints sometimes doesn't work because they'll stand around and cry a lot. Is that really how you want people to play the game?"

Capcom: "Beta testing reviews are great! Ship it out!"

Thank god you can give these people submachine guns, chainsaws, and other weapons. That's about the only part of the AI that isn't too broken. (Even if they try to kill you with their friendly fire.)

Also, isn't it really annoying when you go to the Security Room, and it's a bunch of people saying "No way" "Not going to happen" "What are you DOING?!"? What the fuck are they bitching about? There are no zombies, so shut the fuck up!

*rant over*

As we've both been replaying the game I had similar thoughts.

I did the 7 day survivor achievement and some others this week and I relied on my mega buster and the mini-chainsaws. The game suffers from some horrible AI and pathing issues with escorting missions and I'm shocked you were able to do the Saint Achievement, because that's fucking dedication. The game also has some of the longer load times I'd say, probably since it was one of the earliest 360 games, and maybe the HD install will help speed it up.

I've moved on to retrying Ninja Gaiden 2, which can be utter bullshit at times. Kinda makes me miss dead rising :-\

Well, I never disagreed with the shitty AI - that was DR's prime shortfall.

Not really sure I agree on the Chainsaw vs fists argument though. Ya, as a melee weapon, it's tops...but let's not forget it eats at least 4 inventory slots - and that's alot, especially just for essentially clearing zombies (which arent a threat at max level). The ONLY real reason to carry a MC w/ books is for the purpose of clearing zombies for dumb survivors. Otherwise, all ya need are your mitts for trash and a gun or two for bosses. Period. If zombies are latching on to you at max level, you are either lazy or clearly haven't mastered the use of all your moves yet.

Also, a little related to AI: I haven't bothered with some of the achievements solely due to the AI (and gameplay as well - see survivor mode achievements). It's my theory that achievements both help and hurt games...in the case of pain in the ass to get ones - it hurts. I don't bother doing shit that isn't fun - so Frank-the-Pimp, Saint and a few others will remain undone for me...and it's probably better that way.

kali o. wrote:Not really sure I agree on the Chainsaw vs fists argument though. Ya, as a melee weapon, it's tops...but let's not forget it eats at least 4 inventory slots - and that's alot, especially just for essentially clearing zombies (which arent a threat at max level). The ONLY real reason to carry a MC w/ books is for the purpose of clearing zombies for dumb survivors. Otherwise, all ya need are your mitts for trash and a gun or two for bosses. Period. If zombies are latching on to you at max level, you are either lazy or clearly haven't mastered the use of all your moves yet.

It's mostly about the lag time between moves. Do a jump kick, followed by a roundhouse, and you clear out a few enemies, but you still risk getting grabbed by somebody else. So, what would you do against a large group of enemies?

kali o. wrote:Also, a little related to AI: I haven't bothered with some of the achievements solely due to the AI (and gameplay as well - see survivor mode achievements). It's my theory that achievements both help and hurt games...in the case of pain in the ass to get ones - it hurts. I don't bother doing shit that isn't fun - so Frank-the-Pimp, Saint and a few others will remain undone for me...and it's probably better that way.

Despite the shitty AI, going for the achievement is still pretty fun. It's a different game, and when you have 8-9 people at the same time, it's interesting. (It's just trying to get them into a bathroom or up the security room that is a challenge.) I basically just followed the Saint walkthrough on GameFAQs, and there were a couple of hard parts where I'm racing the clock to get 8 survivors and make it in time for the next case file. (You need to at least get ending B and do a certain amount of cases.)

SineSwiper wrote: It's mostly about the lag time between moves. Do a jump kick, followed by a roundhouse, and you clear out a few enemies, but you still risk getting grabbed by somebody else. So, what would you do against a large group of enemies?

Hard to really describe this stuff with words and not video, but I live off of lariats, flip kicks and tosses (disembowel and face crusher for breaking the boredom). You got like 20 moves at your disposal, mess around with em.

That's for the 5% of the time I kill zombies mind you - large group or not, you only need to clear a very small space in the few instances you can't run straight through (which I guess is what it probably comes down to).

Flip kicks? The timing on that move almost requires two fingers to hit the buttons fast enough. The best one I've seen for large groups is the karate chop, but that usually only takes out limbs and you still risk getting grabbed.

Well, you should play a survivor game, where you typically want to clear a path, just in case they might get stuck. Mind you, they are pretty good about going through zombies if you're hitting Y a bunch (or have a waypoint set). But, sometimes it's just safer to clear out the zombies in a short period of time. The chainsaw does both of those things.

Sure, item mgmt is a bitch sometimes in a Saint game. I typically have the 3 books, one small chainsaw, the RMB gun, two or three juices, and the following for survivors: chainsaw, a few SMGs, and a few shotguns. (The chainsaw serves as a backup, on the odd chance that I actually run out of swings.) My weapons take 5 slots plus 2-3 for the juices, and that leaves 4-5 slots for the survivors. As you give out weapons, you gain more slots, but you'll want those weapons back before you take them to the security room.

Dead Rising has sorta shitty controls, but is still an amazing game.