The Shrine

Let's say we strip out all the plot elements of a RPG, and call it Diablo 2 so that all you're doing is going from one stage, kill a bunch of stuff, level up, and repeat this until the end. How many RPGs would still be playable under such a criteria?

Well, as can be inferred from the example I picked, I'd still play Diablo 2 even though it is devoid of a story (let's not pretend what passes for story in Diablo 2 is actually a story). I'd play the Grandia series, Shining Force Neo/Exa, most likely Kingdom Hearts (I forgot what the story was by the time I got to the end so I probably wasn't playing for the plot), and maybe FFX (filling the sphere grid was pretty fun).

To me a RPG is a game before it is a book. Therefore a RPG should stand on its own even if its completely devoid of a story but not the other way around. A lot of RPG makers seem to think the story should drive the game, but that's backwards. 95% of your 20 or 50 or 500 hours of RPG playing is going to involved killing some stuff over and over. If you can't enjoy what you do 95% of the time, who cares if the story on the other 5% is really good? I suppose if your other 5% is really really good, it might be workable (FF12 comes to mind because the battle system is quite atrocious), but all things being equal I rather have bad story but a good game engine rather than the other way around.

I don't know if it's just my preference but most of the games I quoted above are real time, and Grandia/FFX are quasi real time even though they're technically turn-based. I'm not sure if turn-based systems itself is a limiting factor. One of the key things that makes a game great on just gameplay is that the gameplay changes. In Diablo 2 an Abyss Knight is not just a Skeleton Mage with more stats. An Invisible in Kingdom Hearts is not just a Heartless that hits harder. Excise Psis/Omegas in Grandia 3 are not remotely comparable to any regular enemies of comparable stat. A Behemoth King is not just another enemy with more HP and attack (granted most of this is irrelevant because you can run away from anything). Maybe it is harder to come up with interesting encounters in a turn-based game but it should not be impossible.

Yeah, well, just tell that to the developers. I do wish that RPGs focused on the gameplay a bit more.

Really can't have one without the other IMO. It's like RE without story, it's just silly

Zeus wrote:Really can't have one without the other IMO. It's like RE without story, it's just silly

RE without a story or gameplay would be the movie. BUT YOU LIKED THAT ANYWAY DIDN'T YOU ZEUS!

That's alright; we all know the Zeus is full of suck and fail when it comes to movie choices.

SineSwiper wrote:That's alright; we all know the Zeus is full of suck and fail when it comes to movie choices.

I agreed with Zeus on Transformers, and don't have a real problem with his taste in movies

It's just RE where I actually clash with him.

Diablo 2 without the story would be... roughly the same thing.

Same with Grandia series or Shining Force Neo/Exa. Although Kingdom Hearts has a good story at times, the game is so long that it suffers the same problem as Xenogears, namely you may have forgotten why you were doing all this by the time something actually happens, so I don't think of the story in KH as very important even though it's pretty good. FFX is fairly story driven.

If story is so important,name some games that have really good story but a really bad gameplay system that was still a good game. FF12 is the only one I can think of in mind, as you can't even call the gameplay 'play'. It is more like you program your characters to do something and they go out and kill stuff on their own, but I think you can argue the gameplay comes from having your characters randomly pull off cool combos. Maybe FFT? But the battle system in FFT is quite adequate, even if it's repetitive. I can't think of a game where it is outright painful to play but that can be forgiven for something else.

Hey, the first Grandia had a very nice story! Or is that just nostalgia talking...?

At anyrate, the Shadow Hearts series goes well with or without a plot--the Judgement Ring is a fun bit of niftyness that goes a long way. Plus, judging from how rather bad the third one's story was, you kinda have to play without plot anyway.

Eric wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:That's alright; we all know the Zeus is full of suck and fail when it comes to movie choices.

I agreed with Zeus on Transformers, and don't have a real problem with his taste in movies

It's just RE where I actually clash with him.

And....how did I feel about Transformers after I watched it?

Don Wang wrote:Diablo 2 without the story would be... roughly the same thing.

Diablo is an action game with some RPG elements, it's not really an RPG. Action games are built around gameplay almost solely, although that's changing, so yeah, it would be the same.

Don, if you could cut your posts in size by about half, I'd actually get into these discussions and take them seriously, but I just look at them and can't parse all of that.

I do approve of the tendency to discuss games intelligently though. Maybe the spirit I was trying to start with this place isn't dead after all!

Well, the story is the core portion of an RPG. If a game is using the title of "RPG" when it focusses more strongly on other aspects of play, it is just a gimmick classification. For example, there is Legend of Zelda, it is STRONGLY adventure elements, but some people refer to it as a roleplaying game. Zelda is all about the adventure elements (finding key items and such by going through a series of tests) and therefore is an adventure game.

I do believe that the gameplay portions of the game do need to be good, but with an RPG, it requires much more than just good gameplay.

Nev wrote:Don, if you could cut your posts in size by about half, I'd actually get into these discussions and take them seriously, but I just look at them and can't parse all of that.

I do approve of the tendency to discuss games intelligently though. Maybe the spirit I was trying to start with this place isn't dead after all!

dude....it's like 3 paragraphs......that's like a hundredth of a regular Don post..........

ok and I would go with anything gy the dark cloud guys. for example....dark cloud 1.....was there even a story in that game?

I would never have felt safe enough to even post what I did if it was a normal Don post. The punctuation alone would have sliced me to ribbons!

(just kidding with ya, don, this isn't meant as a diss in any way)

Zeus wrote:

Eric wrote:

SineSwiper wrote:That's alright; we all know the Zeus is full of suck and fail when it comes to movie choices.

I agreed with Zeus on Transformers, and don't have a real problem with his taste in movies

It's just RE where I actually clash with him.

And....how did I feel about Transformers after I watched it?

I thought you didn't like it?

Grandia may have been occasionally brilliant in terms of story but that's about it. I mean you look at Grandia 3 where the theme is around flying, and then the game actually has nothing to do with flying beyond as a method of getting from point A to point B. Is there really a strong story drive to go around going after the 7 parts of Valmar aside from the Eye? Is there a drive to go around the stupidly lage world map in Grandia 1?

If Diablo 2 isn't a RPG then Star Ocean isn't a RPG because both games involves leveling up, and combat involves moving your character in some way and attacking. I don't see why the presence of action or not defines a RPG. It seems like lack of action is an excuse to have a sucky battle engine though, as most turn-based RPG have, at best, a boring battle system that is barely evolved from an ancient 4 comand system (attack/magic/special/item). But then Grandia is not real time (though the turn unit is divided into very fine units) either, so there's no inherent reason why turn-based means your gameplay has to suck.

Dark Cloud is a game I feel, like Kingdom Hearts, has to be driven by action over story because of its sheer length. I remember seeing my roomate play Dark Cloud 2. Let's say you're at the final stage of the game in the Moonwhatever Palace. So you're given a few info on why you're here, and then for the 5 or 50 hours you've to navigate through this stupidly huge dungeon before you actually confront the boss. If you're lucky there might be an update on where the story is going halfway through the dungeon. You can't say the story keeps the game going when you have thes 5+ hour gaps devoid of any story. In Kingdom Hearts there's a gap of about 30 hours between when you started trying to find Kairi to when you actually find her. Again it cannot be the story that keeps the game going because you would probably have forgotten about her by the time you find her.

Nev wrote:Don, if you could cut your posts in size by about half, I'd actually get into these discussions and take them seriously, but I just look at them and can't parse all of that.

I do approve of the tendency to discuss games intelligently though. Maybe the spirit I was trying to start with this place isn't dead after all!

I think we've gotten into it before about this crap, nev. Why do you post a response stating you didnt read the topic? It is so completely useless to attack a good topic and derail the thread for those who are reading/responding... it is basically a form of trolling. If you didnt read it and dont care, then do nothing, please!

/rant

Sounds fine by me, will do. I wish to diss no more.