The Shrine

Why the kids? What the hell is up with the kids? It's not kids playing these games, so why the hell should I be playing one?

See, this is the drastic difference between American and Japanese RPGs. We have games like Bioshock and Mass Effect, which portray real adults in a realistic setting. They have games like Blue Dragon and well, everything else, which is some fantasy bullshit with kiddies. I'm not a kid, and I don't want to control a kid. I don't give two shits about what this kid's story is. Quit giving me childish storylines with kids.

Are Japanese core RPG audience kids or something?

Japanese have a sort of affection for childhood innocence and coming of age. Also, many RPGs are designed for a young audience first and the more mature audience second (In the vein of Disney movies, back in the day--Adults loved them, but they were made with children in mind.)

Its just what sells in Japan. The Japanese don't like big, tough burly men--they don't identify with it. It's just cultural stuff.

Also, Luffy is awesome and you shut your WHORISH MOUTH.

I think North American RPG developers are getting there, but they have a LONG way to go before they start creating anything approaching a classic title.

I have never played Blue Dragon, but I don't think it is a good example of an RPG because the reviews place it quite low among RPGs. I personally don't give a crap what character I am playing if the game is fun. Sine, I thought you liked Final Fantasy Tactics? Ramza is years younger than Vaan.

Final Fantasy Tactics stars a kid as the hero and there is really nothing positive in terms of the atmosphere in any way. There seems to be an unwritten rule with Japanese games in general that they cannot possibly have a negative message in anyway. This is why you'd never see a game like GTA come from Japan. Maybe this exists to counter balance all the whacked up stuff that occurs on the animated/real side of Japan.

In general the attitude of Japanese games and everything else fiction is disgustingly positive. It is said that you cannot possibly get anywhere on Shonen Jump if your manga has any remote negative overtones. This is why it's no surprise DN gets axed as quick as it did because it dared to suggest the evil guys might win sometimes.

Dutch wrote:I have never played Blue Dragon, but I don't think it is a good example of an RPG because the reviews place it quite low among RPGs. I personally don't give a crap what character I am playing if the game is fun. Sine, I thought you liked Final Fantasy Tactics? Ramza is years younger than Vaan.

I make exceptions for most of Square's stuff (especially in the FF vein) because they put kids in mature situations. FFT is no exception, as it's a pretty dark story with some very mature themes. Actually, that's a good example of a Japanese game that really breaks the mold of traditional RPG story-telling. What other RPG has that sort of death and destruction (along with religious overtones) and still with enough character development to actually feel sorry for the their plight?

Kinda the same reason why I put up with Naruto. They may be kids, but they are ninja first and are forced to deal with death firsthand.

Dutch wrote:I think North American RPG developers are getting there, but they have a LONG way to go before they start creating anything approaching a classic title.

Oh Seeker...


Knights of the Old Republic. Soon: Mass Effect. End discussion.



Unless somebody else would like to mention that that PC thing apparently at some point had an RPG or two for it.

Dutch wrote:That's weird that they took profiles out of the PSP version, but in the PSX version every character in the game has a profile and it will display their ages along with other information. This is a fairly usual thing in early Matsuno games.

Ugh, completely forgot about the Chronicle.

Ramza is 16 at chapter 1, and 21 by chapter 4.

Dutch wrote:I think North American RPG developers are getting there, but they have a LONG way to go before they start creating anything approaching a classic title.

I missed this gem! Seek, if you think that North American RPG developers haven't yet produced a classic, you haven't played enough WRPGs to be qualified to make that call.

Some classics and classic franchises, off the top of my head: Rogue, Eye of the Beholder, The Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Ultima, KOTOR, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment...

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:

Dutch wrote:That's weird that they took profiles out of the PSP version, but in the PSX version every character in the game has a profile and it will display their ages along with other information. This is a fairly usual thing in early Matsuno games.

Ugh, completely forgot about the Chronicle.

Ramza is 16 at chapter 1, and 21 by chapter 4.

Dutch wrote:I think North American RPG developers are getting there, but they have a LONG way to go before they start creating anything approaching a classic title.

I missed this gem! Seek, if you think that North American RPG developers haven't yet produced a classic, you haven't played enough WRPGs to be qualified to make that call.

Some classics and classic franchises, off the top of my head: Rogue, Eye of the Beholder, The Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Ultima, KOTOR, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment...

There is a difference between being a good RPG (Knights of the old Republic) and a classic RPG (Chrono Trigger). A larger difference between being a generic RPG (Baldur's Gate), an even larger difference between being a very bad RPG (Ultima), and the largest difference possible with the what I would argue as the worst RPG series to date (Wizardry 4, 5 and 6).

Knights of the Old Republic, while good in the gameplay department, lacked great characters, a great plotline, or at locations. It felt kind of bland due to those elements. Knights of the Old Republic, I bet that there are a few here who played it but can't even remember the name of a single character in the game, though they will be able to remember the names of all the characters and villains of Chrono Trigger which they might not have played for 7 or 8 years. Baldur's Gate really is about as generic of a Fantasy RPG as I can ever remember playing, this game reeked of genericism.

Ultima and Wizardry are actually perfect examples of how poor North American RPGs are, if these are two of the best series from here. Ultima has some later games that aren't that bad, but still below average.

Seeker, you are mad. KOTOR is a modern classic, and for a lot of people — myself included — it redeemed the Star Wars franchise. Ultima and Wizardry are both classic series (later entries are weak, admittedly, but the original Wizardry games and Ultimas IV through VII were genre-defining), and to level charges of genericism against WRPGs when your standard is JRPGs is insanity.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:Seeker, you are mad. KOTOR is a modern classic, and for a lot of people — myself included — it redeemed the Star Wars franchise. Ultima and Wizardry are both classic series (later entries are weak, admittedly, but the original Wizardry games and Ultimas IV through VII were genre-defining), and to level charges of genericism against WRPGs when your standard is JRPGs is insanity.

I doubt we're going to agree on any points here. It is my opinion that the most of the early North American proto-RPGs like Ultima and Wizardry were heading in the wrong direction, whereas the Japanese began doing things the right way. The market essentially died in North America, and from Japan it flourished. It flourished to the point where the country was pumping out mega-hit after mega-hit, and North America has not produced any of those.

Well, they haven't produced any yet, that is. Bioware might be heading in a good direction. EA seems to be expanding a lot as well. Bioware is a good company, but they always seem to fall short. They have a lot they can learn about story telling from the Japanese writers, a lot they could learn about good character development, and good polish. EA has the connections with companies such as Square Enix. I do feel Bioware is capable of producing an amazing title.

Seeker, I think you are taking the bad parts of the NA side and criticizing them, while ignoring the bad elements of Japanese RPGs. Both markets go in different directions.

Japanese RPGs have some elements of storytelling, but they can get REALLY generic at times, too. The same for their gameplay. For every Ultima you throw out, I can throw out a Dragon Warrior (all of them; please!) as one with the same problems. Wizardry was too insanely hard, where as FF:MQ was laughably easy. (Oh, and I could mention 7th Saga has a hard-as-fuck JRPG.)

But, we're talking about 20+ years of history here, and we could be comparing that all day. Right now, I think it's got to the point where the storytelling in American games is really getting better than the Japanese market. Games like Bioshock or Half-Life are showing that FPSs can have a really meaningful story and merging the world between mindless shooters and RPGs. Square seems to be the only Japanese RPG market in town that is really trying to push for intelligent and meaningful stories, and even they are somewhat lacking at times. (FF12, anybody?)

What about gameplay? Have we finally given up the traditional JRPG menu-driven gameplay? No. Why not? Seriously, why the fuck not? What is the NA market doing? They are merging new genres with RPG elements left and right. Fallout plays differently than Bioshock which plays differently than KOTOR.

Let's face it, the Japanese RPG market is starting to get stale, and NA's market is now leading the charge. And it's about fucking time! NA's RPG market has been either non-existant or stuck in the PC market for decades. I've been tired of all of my console gaming coming from the Japanese all the time.

I'll chime in a quick agreement. I got into anime only recently (couple years ago?) and loved the first ones i watched like Cowboy Bebop and Samurai 7... even with the staple kid characters. But lately, when every freaking anime out there throws in the kids... it drives me nuts.

The ragtag bunch of young 'uns saving the world from a power-hungry demigod has been done a few too many times in JRPGs.

Black Lotus wrote:The ragtag bunch of young 'uns saving the world from a power-hungry demigod has been done a few too many times in JRPGs.

How are North American RPGs much different than this?

Dutch wrote:How are North American RPGs much different than this?

Again, Seeker, you're revealing an ignorance of WRPGs here. I can't think of one WRPG that has a primarily adolescent cast.

I have not played much western RPG but in most cases you've control of like the most powerful guys to ever walk the side of good against whatever evil you're fighting, as opposed to pick up five kids from your village and call that a party. I mean the hero of the Ultima series is The Avatar... I realized that he's your avatar, but he's not meant to be some boy in the village.

And being kids doesn't necessarily mean the party is not qualified. In Terranigma you got the skateboard kid Perel who can dodge lasers on his skateboards, so I'd say he has pretty good credentials to be contributing to a world saving effort. In JRPG a lot of the time I feel you're putting together a party with 0 indication that they actually have any training/power and sometimes not even a clue. FFX2 comes to mind where the good guys literally don't have any clue as to what they're doing. When you go against Vagnagun it's basically like:

Rikku: I think what Yuna is saying, if it can be built, it can be destroyed, so we must not give up!

Yuna: Actually I didn't even think about that.

Now maybe the point of FFX2 is that you're basically in control of 3 bumbling idiots that somehow saved the world, so it works okay. But you see a lot of example where the point is not that you're controlling a bunch of mental retards while trying to save the world, and yet the characters are portrayed that way.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:

Dutch wrote:How are North American RPGs much different than this?

Again, Seeker, you're revealing an ignorance of WRPGs here. I can't think of one WRPG that has a primarily adolescent cast.

It is silly to attatch any relevance to that.

The reason is that North American RPGs don't really have any memorable characters. Whether the Japanese developed ones have a "primarily adolescent cast" or not isn't really relevant; and certainly not true of a lot of them. The only difference is that in North American ones you ALWAYS have a highly boring ragtag cast fighting a power hungry demigod.

Also, the Final Fantasy games wich have a primarilly adoescant cast are the PSX ones, those are also the most highly praised of the series here in North America. 10-20 years down the road people are going to still be praising those games, do you think Knights of the Old Republic will be praised in such a way?

Do you honestly think that people would be even close to being as interest about a remake of Knights of the Old Republic as they would be about the PSX Final Fantasy games? 10 years down the road? Let alone more excited by Knights of the Old Republic.... I would bet money in saying that a Final Fantasy 7 remake would outsell a Knights of the Old Republic remake by 100 (and any other North American developed RPG). Final Fantasy 7 is classic, Knights of the Old Republic is not.

Dutch wrote:The reason is that North American RPGs don't really have any memorable characters. Whether the Japanese developed ones have a "primarily adolescent cast" or not isn't really relevant; and certainly not true of a lot of them.

Most of the SNES/PS1 JRPGs I played DID have a memorable cast. Mostly, I would say, because I was a child/teenager who had hours and hours of free time to kill and few games to play, not unlike most at theat age. I think I played through FF4 about ten times, FF6, about 5, and FF7 three or four. Of course I'll remember them.

Just like I'll remember Revan, Malak, Carth, Bastila, Juhani and HK-47.

Dutch wrote:The only difference is that in North American ones you ALWAYS have a highly boring ragtag cast fighting a power hungry demigod.

Did I say always? Go back and read again. Also, I'm rolling my eyes at this poor attempt at humor.

Black Lotus wrote:Just like I'll remember Revan, Malak, Carth, Bastila, Juhani and HK-47.

Yeah, and those ALWAYS rank among the most memorable characters from an RPG.

Dutch wrote:

Black Lotus wrote:Just like I'll remember Revan, Malak, Carth, Bastila, Juhani and HK-47.

Yeah, and those ALWAYS rank among the most memorable characters from an RPG.

You wouldn't know.

Damn whoever re-titled this "NA versus Japanese RPGs" as if there's no middle ground. Well, I guess there is never a middle ground when arguing with this goddamn hippy.

a lot of western rpgs have user-created main characters.... which may lead to them being less memorable. "Hey, you guys remember the guy I made in baldur's gate? he was awesome!" doesn't make for such good conversation as talking about jrpg characters.

Ugh, this thread is frustrating. Sorry you don't enjoy WRPGs, Seek.

Dutch wrote:

Black Lotus wrote:Just like I'll remember Revan, Malak, Carth, Bastila, Juhani and HK-47.

Yeah, and those ALWAYS rank among the most memorable characters from an RPG.

Why are sales/numbers/popularity always your basis for an argument? If they were talking about statistics, then this would be pertinent, but in this case it is not. Just because an FF7 remake would sell 100 times more than a KotoR does not mean that you arent wrong about western RPG's "ALWAYS have a highly boring ragtag cast fighting a power hungry demigod."

Using 'always' always makes you look like a retard.

I tend to find JRPGs good for their simplicity, but don't neccessarily blame JRPGs for the lack of good storylines within them.

I mean, there are a good number of RPGs in Japan that are not only dark and morbid, but also extremely deep and interesting--they just never get released here.

It's the markets to blame: games are translated only if there's a high demand for them. Translation is expensive, and repackaging doubly so. Americans have ONE vision of Japanese games, and one only--it's the mainstream, animoo trend that has got even Wired Magazine talking. We only want the Japanese stuff we're familiar with--others get left behind to stay in Japan.

A great example of this is teh Shin Megami Tensei series--the majority of which has never seen official U.S. release (until recent days, where it has met a surprisingly decent level of success, especially it's more "mainstream" Persona 3 title.) There are other RPGs that are on par with SMT, of course--a number of Dragon Warrior games have very good plots that were a bit too dark or sexual to be allowed into a state-side release.

WRPGs tend to have better plots to us because we ARE Western. We identify with the storytelling involved--we are a culture that finds certain things heroic or archetypical of a hero. We find Western RPGs closer in vein to what we identify with, and so we enjoy them more.

Both have their ups and downs though. A lot of Western RPGs are SHIT to play, gameplay wise. KOTOR is a great game, but I have no FUCKING CLUE what all that dice-rolling bullshit is about, or how I can take no damage for three rounds only to DIE INSTANTLY in one attack...

First off-- I'd just like to throw my hat into the "Seeker is an ignorant douchebag" ring. You claim only JRPGs can be classics because YOU played them as a kid. Of course we're going to more fondly recollect games we played when we were younger. LucasArts games like Sam & Max, Full Throttle, and Day of the Tentacle are what I remember playing most... yet I know there were plenty of others out there that were as good and maybe better.

Second, I think there's something to learn from both regions. Japanese paved the way and a lot of elements from it are great. I will say, I too am sick of "group of kiddos from small town battle evil" scenario. Blue Dragon sucked in that it was too much a copy of that tired genre that FF has done too often as well.

What the US has done the best recently is take elements of RPG and feed them into other popular genres to make them even better (Bioshock, for example). This is just a growing GOOD trend that developers are realizing that most gamers aren't idiots and want a good, deep thought provoking story (wish Hollywood was paying attention too).

JRPGs were never made FOR US audiences, and probably won't. We just get ported what Japan loved the most... and as anyone can easily tell the markets are hugely different (just look at console sales between the two). Just because Japan has been doing it longer doesn't mean it's better.

Seeker can think BG is generic...Fallout isn't a classic....KotOR has no memorable characters (...lol)....whatever. Everyone is entitled to personal taste, even bad taste.

When this thread truely went downhill is when he criticized WRPGs for consistently lacking on story/plot (using Bioware as the example no less), while lauding JRPG story/plot in the same breath...there can be no intelligent debate stemming from that comment, except to have everyone agree that Seeker is completely and utterly retarded.

Black Lotus wrote:

Dutch wrote:

Black Lotus wrote:Just like I'll remember Revan, Malak, Carth, Bastila, Juhani and HK-47.

Yeah, and those ALWAYS rank among the most memorable characters from an RPG.

You wouldn't know.

It's common knowledge to anyone who plays RPGs and can read.

Tessian wrote:First off-- I'd just like to throw my hat into the "Seeker is an ignorant douchebag" ring. You claim only JRPGs can be classics because YOU played them as a kid. Of course we're going to more fondly recollect games we played when we were younger. LucasArts games like Sam & Max, Full Throttle, and Day of the Tentacle are what I remember playing most... yet I know there were plenty of others out there that were as good and maybe better.

Second, I think there's something to learn from both regions. Japanese paved the way and a lot of elements from it are great. I will say, I too am sick of "group of kiddos from small town battle evil" scenario. Blue Dragon sucked in that it was too much a copy of that tired genre that FF has done too often as well.

What the US has done the best recently is take elements of RPG and feed them into other popular genres to make them even better (Bioshock, for example). This is just a growing GOOD trend that developers are realizing that most gamers aren't idiots and want a good, deep thought provoking story (wish Hollywood was paying attention too).

JRPGs were never made FOR US audiences, and probably won't. We just get ported what Japan loved the most... and as anyone can easily tell the markets are hugely different (just look at console sales between the two). Just because Japan has been doing it longer doesn't mean it's better.

On the first point, congratulations, you can throw out insults that impress 10 year old beavis and butthead fans. On the second point, Blue Dragon is a poor example, it is one of the worst RPGs to come out of Japan in a long time. On the third point, Japanese and European developers, as well as North American ones have been putting advanced plotlines into games for a very long time now. It didn't start recently with games like Bioshock. And you have the audacity to call me ignorant....

On the fourth point, the top selling RPGs in North America are Japanese developed, not US developed. The only North American RPG that sold quite well was Knights of the Old Repubic, and even that didn't come close to recent Final Fantasies.


On Kali's point, Kali, I would sincerely like to see you argue how a game hardly anyone has heard of like fallout is a classic. How it ranks so highly among the hearts of millions as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy titles do. Please, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. The only reason we are even talking about Knights of the old republic now is because there are no better examples. It is not a classic, no one will care about it 10 years down the road (no one even really cares about it now except starwars fans, and that has little to do with it being an RPG), while Chrono Trigger, and Final Fantasies will continued to be talked about and revered by RPG fans for a very long time to come.

clas·sic /ˈklæsɪk/ –adjective

1. of the first or highest quality, class, or rank: a classic piece of work.
2. serving as a standard, model, or guide: the classic method of teaching arithmetic.
3. of or pertaining to Greek and Roman antiquity, esp. with reference to literature and art.
4. modeled upon or imitating the style or thought of ancient Greece and Rome: The 17th and 18th centuries were obsessed with classic ideals.
5. of or adhering to an established set of artistic or scientific standards or methods: a classic example of mid-Victorian architecture.
6. basic; fundamental: the classic rules of warfare.
7. of enduring interest, quality, or style: a classic design; classic clothes.
8. of literary or historical renown: the classic haunts of famous writers.
9. traditional or typical: a classic comedy routine.
10. definitive: the classic reference work on ornithology.
11. of or pertaining to automobiles distinguished by elegant styling, outstanding engineering, and fine workmanship that were built between about 1925 and 1948.
–noun
12. an author or a literary work of the first rank, esp. one of demonstrably enduring quality.
13. an author or literary work of ancient Greece or Rome.
14. classics, the literature and languages of ancient Greece and Rome (often prec. by the).
15. an artist or artistic production considered a standard.
16. a work that is honored as definitive in its field: His handbook on mushrooms is a classic.
17. something noteworthy of its kind and worth remembering: His reply was a classic.
18. an article, as of clothing, unchanging in style: Her suit was a simple classic.
19. a typical or traditional event, esp. one that is considered to be highly prestigious or the most important of its kind: The World Series is the fall classic of baseball.

pop·u·lar /ˈpɒpyələr/ –adjective

1. regarded with favor, approval, or affection by people in general: a popular preacher.
2. regarded with favor, approval, or affection by an acquaintance or acquaintances: He's not very popular with me just now.
3. of, pertaining to, or representing the people, esp. the common people: popular discontent.
4. of the people as a whole, esp. of all citizens of a nation or state qualified to participate in an election: popular suffrage; the popular vote; popular representation.
5. prevailing among the people generally: a popular superstition.
6. suited to or intended for the general masses of people: popular music.
7. adapted to the ordinary intelligence or taste: popular lectures on science.
8. suited to the means of ordinary people; not expensive: popular prices on all tickets.

Japanse RPG are strictly console only, while western RPG are mostly on computer. The console market is many, many times bigger than the computer games market, especially consider RPGs lag far behind RTS/FPS/MMORPG on the computer games in terms of influence/visibility. In video gaming talk classic really means 'something that sold a lot of copies' and that's not that hard to do if you're selling in a much bigger market.

99% of the games that you never heard about here has a reason why you never heard about them. Although US and Japan have pretty different cultures most of time both can still appreciate a good game. Games like GTA and Diablo 2 are totally against the theme of Japanese games but they still got ported to Japan.

I don't necessarily think games that star kids necessarily are bad as long as the plot doesn't read like an insult to your intelligence. In Terranigma you can think of the game having a party of 7 people where 5 of them are either a kid or a cute and fuzzy animal. But the game's story is set up so that kids are very strong, because Terranigma has a timeless setting. Your 4 kids have been kids since basically the beginning of time. It is obvious that age is not an indicator of power because all the important characters are forever young through hundreds if not millions of year that the game spans. Throughout the game the said kids also demonstrate incredible powers like knocking down alleged impenetrable barriers with a skateboard or causing black holes to appear and implode stuff. So it is not a stretch to say you'll be going to the final battle with 3 kids and 2 adults. In fact at that point you're supposed to feel sorry for the bad guys because it's more like total overkill given how powerful the characters of Terranigma are portrayed as. One can only imagine if Elle and Yomi did not kill each other, would there even be a need for the final battle?

But Terranigma is an exception. In most games you're supposed to believe that the 3 kids you gathered in your village with no prior experience is supposed to be defeating anything that might threaten the world, and that people all over the world bow down to their authority for no reason whatsoever. A story needs to be at least plausible. Even on a game like Skies of Arcadia that really made no attempt to take itself seriously, Vyse and friends did hijack the equivalent of Super Star Destroyer so it stands to reason people would respect the kid that runs around with a ship mounted with a mini super laser that can probably blow away a small city. And Ramirez, your arch nemesis, is a kid too so it's not much of a stretch to say your 3 kids can defeat 1 kid (who probably trained a lot harder, but there's only 1 of him versus 3 of you!). In fact SoA has the respect part down pretty well. In most RPGs it seems like you can be running around with weapons called Godslayers and yet everyone still treats you like a bum on the street.

Dutch wrote: On Kali's point, Kali, I would sincerely like to see you argue how a game hardly anyone has heard of like fallout is a classic.

I wouldn't argue that it is...the only thing to do is call you a retard and move on. It's the only logical response to someone claiming Fallout isn't a "classic", nothing personal.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/ ... ?q=fallout

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/ ... 20republic

Dutch wrote:It's common knowledge to anyone who plays RPGs and can read.

So anybody who's played KotOR and considers it a classic RPG is illiterate? You have the most excellent ways of spinning things into nonsense, old bean.

And you and Sine are equally wrong on either Nintendo or Microsoft being racist. I'll make this point again: Microsoft does not go out of their way to market to WHITE people. I'd put money down that say the percentage of black Xbox360 owners or larger than the percentage of black Wii owners.

The Japanese are, however as we all know, historically xenophobic in nature.

Black Lotus wrote:http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/ ... ?q=fallout

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/ ... 20republic

Dutch wrote:It's common knowledge to anyone who plays RPGs and can read.

So anybody who's played KotOR and considers it a classic RPG is illiterate? You have the most excellent ways of spinning things into nonsense, old bean.

And you and Sine are equally wrong on either Nintendo or Microsoft being racist. I'll make this point again: Microsoft does not go out of their way to market to WHITE people. I'd put money down that say the percentage of black Xbox360 owners or larger than the percentage of black Wii owners.

The Japanese are, however as we all know, historically xenophobic in nature.

On your reply to my quote, it is quite funny that you acuse me of spin doctoring considering you completely misrepresented the conversation. We were not discussing whether the game was a classic or not in the particular section which you quoted me from. That was dealing with the fact that any normal RPG fan won't consider those characters on their most memorable characters from an RPG list.

The full quote:

Black Lotus wrote:

Dutch wrote: Yeah, and those ALWAYS rank among the most memorable characters from an RPG.

You wouldn't know.

It's common knowledge to anyone who plays RPGs and can read.

Though, anyone who considers Knights of the Old Republic a classic among RPGs uses the title "classic" too freely.

Thanks for the links though, I can use them to illustrate a point by a site that most people (if not all) tend to respect a great deal:

On fallout: GameSpot

11/21/1997
8.7 out of 10
87.0%

Haven' even heard of any of the other 13 review sites before.

Knights of the Old Republic: GameSpot

7/15/2003
9.1 out of 10
91.0%

They gave Final Fantasy 7 a 9.5, Final Fantasy 8 a 9.5, Chrono Cross a 10 (which most would agree is the weaker sequel, they don't have a Chrono Trigger review), the GBA port of 12 year old Final Fantasy 6 an 8.9. These are classic RPGs.

Even Skies of Arcadia got a 9.2 (which isn't a classic, just my personal favourite). Final Fantasy 10 is borderline, but I wouldn't consider it a classic, scored 9.3 on Gamespot. Both of these RPGs scored higher than Knights of the Old Republic, and significantly higher than Fallout. Vagrant Story scored a 9.6, though it is one of those games that I do not think can really be considered a classic either, it is one of my favourites, but is not considered overly special by millions of RPG fans throughout the world.

As for the definition of classic videogame, it is similar to classic movie; popularity is assumed, though most important is an enduring interest in the title as well as reception. You wouldn't call a song a classic if some small group of people like critics called it amazing but no one else cared. You also wouldn't call a song like Hangin' Tough by New Kids on the Block a classic either, even though it was quite popular in its day, it is never played; stuff like Back in Black, Whole Lotta Love, Hey Jude, Imagine, Light my Fire, Heart of Glass, etc... Those are classics because they were both highly praised in their time and still played by millions. In adition, a classic painting is not a classic painting if only a few people care about it.

Define "normal RPG fan".

The Seeker wrote:Haven' even heard of any of the other 13 review sites before.

You've never heard of PC Gamer magazine or Computer Gaming Wolrd magazine (now Games For Windows)? I'm not even a PC gamer, but I've seen the magazines on stands for the last decade at least.

I remember one of the more reputable PC gaming magazines rated TIE Fighter as the bestest PC game ever. All that means is the editors at that magazine really liked TIE Fighter, which is perfectly valid as TIE Fighter is a very awesome game indeed but it is by no means an objective evaluation of the state of computer gaming. At any rate Seeker's definition of classic seems to be similar to the one used by the back-of-the-box standard, which means any game that most people knows of, sold a ton, and received a good review. On the back of Breath of Fire 3 box it says this game is "An Instant Epic" or maybe it was An Instant Classic. In fact I think it'd be hard to find a game that is not heralded as a 'classic' by someone somewhere so all you need is good sales. It is obviously much easier to meet the sales criteria when your platform is about 10 times bigger (console vs computer). Also you have to remember that pirating computer games is quite easier than pirating console games so that even if the console market isn't much bigger (which it is), it is still easier to get more sales on a console because piracy is more difficult compared to computer.

In fact if you go the opposite spectrum, there are something like 5 Japanese computer games that ever sold more than 100K. If it was on the console that kind of sales wouldn't even be enough to justify putting the game on the shelves of Best Buy so chances are you have never heard of any of these games. So no matter how good (or not) these games actually may be you'd have never heard of them, which means the games could be arbitarily awesome and it'd still fail the 'classic' test.

What's a Japanese PC game?

Interesting to know which five those were. I'm putting my money on that they were all Mahjong.

The start of this has a little point on JRPGs, enjoy

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... aper-Mario

Well not counting US ports like Diablo 2/Starcraft, or Final Fantasy 11, I'm guessing one is some kind of Princess Maker, one would be Evangelion Steel Girlfriend (though it was selling at some insane price like $160), maybe Steel Girlfriend 2 depending on if it was during the height of the Eva craze. Clannad, Air, and Kanon (i.e. stuff Megatokyo is based off of) probably at least came close to 100K (think one of them was higher, might be Air). Fate Stay Night definitely sold more than 100K and so did the quasi sequel, Fate Hollow Ataraxia.

If you go to say Megatokyo you'll probably find some rave about how Air is like LOTR in digitial form but better. If you go to the Moonlit World you'll find similar raves about the Fate series. Now obviously ravings are just that, ravings, but let's suppose they're really right. That the Eva games are not a cheap attempt to cash out on the Eva craze, and that the visual novels are have plot comparable to Lord of the Rings. Even then you'd still have never heard of any of these games because the market for Japanese games is simply too small.

bovine wrote:The start of this has a little point on JRPGs, enjoy

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... aper-Mario

As usual, his reviews are awesome and on spot.