The Shrine

http://kotaku.com/5010214/nintendo-wii- ... -18-months


Wii - 50 million (not including pack ins or downloadable software)
PS2 - 42 million
X360 - 28 million
PS3 - 20 million


Hardware

Wii - 9.5 million
PS2 - 8.5 million
X360 - 5.2 million
PS3 - 4.2 million


So, in fact, not only has the hardware numbers of the Wii surpassed the PS2 at this time, but also the software attachment rate (PS2 had 4.94 and Wii has 5.26 on top of the pack ins). So I would say it is a fairly safe conclusion that. These numbers are slightly lower than the Xbox 360 at 5.38, but higher than the PS3 at 4.76. These numbers become quite in favour of the Wii if packins are included, particularly since Wii Sports was its major system seller.

So, there you have the answer, the Wii is indeed healthy for the gaming industry. If indeed most of the people buying it are casual gamers, they are buying more software than "hardcore" gamers are. They are also buying a millions of traditional big franchises including Zelda, Mario, Resident Evil, and Smash; so that market is not being hurt. That's the answer 18 months later.

50 million games sold with the Wii? I find that hard to believe... especially considering they say it doesn't include Wii Sports

Tessian wrote:50 million games sold with the Wii? I find that hard to believe... especially considering they say it doesn't include Wii Sports

Check out the recent tie ratio numbers, I think it's in the 5 neighbourhood, so it would make sense

Congratulations, Nintendo. You did it. You successfully tapped into the casual gamer market, and it only cost you your devoted fans who supported you since the NES days. How does that feel? Selling out, I mean. Capitalizing on the grandpas and the bored housewives, and the jocks that only buy two games a year. Spending all of that hard work to produce a game about exercising? Nice.

Now, if you don't mind, us "hard" "core" gamers are going to be playing on the 360, and maybe the DS, since you haven't fucked up that market yet.

Used to be Yours,

Your Former Fans

I liked Super Mario Galaxy.

RentCavalier wrote:I liked Super Mario Galaxy.

Your MOM likes Super Mario Galaxy. That makes it totally UNCOOL!

Wii total software sales are complete bullshit unless they exclude Wii Play.

SineSwiper wrote:Congratulations, Nintendo. You did it. You successfully tapped into the casual gamer market, and it only cost you your devoted fans who supported you since the NES days. How does that feel? Selling out, I mean. Capitalizing on the grandpas and the bored housewives, and the jocks that only buy two games a year. Spending all of that hard work to produce a game about exercising? Nice.

Now, if you don't mind, us "hard" "core" gamers are going to be playing on the 360, and maybe the DS, since you haven't fucked up that market yet.

Used to be Yours,

Your Former Fans

Sorry, this post just made me laugh my ass off =P

It's true, it's true!

SineSwiper wrote:Congratulations, Nintendo. You did it. You successfully tapped into the casual gamer market, and it only cost you your devoted fans who supported you since the NES days. How does that feel? Selling out, I mean. Capitalizing on the grandpas and the bored housewives, and the jocks that only buy two games a year. Spending all of that hard work to produce a game about exercising? Nice.

Now, if you don't mind, us "hard" "core" gamers are going to be playing on the 360, and maybe the DS, since you haven't fucked up that market yet.

Used to be Yours,

Your Former Fans

I don't understand how the hell the "hardcores" are bitching about Nintendo's lineup so far. The system's been out for what, 19 months and so far you've gotten:

1) The first true Mario sequel to Mario 64 - this appeals to both casuals and "hardcores"
2) The first true Zelda sequel to Ocarina - Zelda is pretty much a "hardcore" series now exclusively
3) The final game in the Metroid Prime trilogy - ONLY "hardcores" here
4) A Mario Kart online game - online ain't for casuals and Mario Kart has always appealed to the "hardcores" as much or more than the casuals
5) The last of the Smash Bros trilogy (well, the original creator's trilogy) - everything about that game screams "hardcore"; casuals can't even navigate the menu system for cryin' out loud
6) A new WarioWare - WarioWare is more of a "hardcore" series here due to its very Japanese style; your mom won't really care for that
7) Super Paper Mario - action-platformer/RPG? That sure ain't for no "casuals"
8 ) Resident Evil 4 - please, try and convince me this is anything but a "hardcore" series
9) Nights into Dreams - other than some Sega "hardcores", who would even know what this series is? Poor sales prove that
10) No More Heroes - again, please try and convince me
11) DQ Master of Swords - this is an on-rails RPG, what non-"hardocre" would care?
12) Soul Calibur Legends - I know it sucked, but what casual person would care about the Soul Calibur series by now? Fighting games in general are purely hardcore nowadays. This was purely trying to tap into the hardcore crowd on the Wii who played the series on their PS2s or PSXs

And those are just the main ones (well, Nights and Soul Calibur ain't so much "main" games). Sure there are some real dogs in there (Nights, Legends, DQ for sure) and some are just offshoots trying to capitalize (same games) on the name. But the point is, they're not made for the "casual" market that is making the Wii an insane success right now. They are made for the more "hardcore" gamers.

And Nintendo's on pace for one "hardcore" game every about 2 months not to mention delivering on basically every single franchise they've had since the NES days within the first year and a half, the ones the "devoted" fans care about. And that's before you even start talking about the VC or even the new Wiiware. Your momma who eats up WiiFit and plays Wii Sports almost exclusively won't care about old NES or SNES games, particularly Japanese-only releases (you got Sin and Punishment pretty early on in the VCs life). You essentially have to either a) have a bias against Nintendo or b) ignore what's actually happened (or both) to say they ain't appealing to the "hardcores" as much as they can. Taking a look at some upcoming stuff like Madworld and you'll see that the third parties are gonna be more on board considering both the ridiculous userbase (they should pass the 360 once the May NPD figures are out) and FAR cheaper development.

Like every "hardcore" gamer, I also have a 360 and it does get turned on a bit more (not a huge amount) due to the fact that there is just a far larger quantity of games on it (and they had an insane Xmas), many of which are cheaper. They also have a decent marketplace but damn if Nintendo's channels aren't just fun to fiddle with. And I was extremely skeptical about them when I heard about them. It just depends what game(s) I happened to pick up at that time that determines which system gets turned on as opposed to the name on the system.

And just because Nintendo appeals to new gamers as their old gamer crowd it doesn't mean their ignoring their devotees. It's not a "casual vs hardcore" debate where it only appeals to one side which so many gamers seem to want to make it. There's plenty for both. Just because you mom also plays the system don't mean you have to hate it or can't be associated with it.

Probably a good 2/3rds of those games are kiddie-friendly (and first-party). I really couldn't say that for the good games out for 360. Sure, you have your Pinatas and Katamaris, but it just seems like more of an adult system. Both PS3 and 360 are.

I've gotten older. I've stopped playing Mario, because I'm fucking tired of Mario. I don't want some gay colorful plumber in this gay technicolor fun land. And I certainly don't want to fly around the galaxy collecting stars all fucking day. I'm tired of Nintendo driving their characters so far deep into the ground that it's the only thing they care to release nowadays.

Call me vain. Call me shallow. Call me bitter in my old age. But sometimes, I want to enjoy an involved story with elements of politics thrown in. I want to shoot hookers in the face and drive around in fast cars on the wrong side of the street. I want to play a serious sci-fi game. I want to be a ninja and chop somebody's leg off, or play a devil that wipes out other demons. I want to be a spy and sneak around an enemy hideout. I want to, I dunno, use my HDTV for what it was made for. I want to sit down and play a game without worrying about my hand cramping up.

But, I can't do any of this on the Wii. It's annoying, and I'm not the only one that feels this way. Maybe it's because Nintendo alienated its audience by not maturing. In fact, it's de-evolving into the casual audience. Meanwhile, we're maturing, and the same kiddie colorful shit just doesn't work anymore.

Speak for yourself. Hate to break it to ya, but catering to shut-in gamers isn't making nearly as much money as what Nintendo is doing.

Gamers are, and have been, a minority. Most people who play games have really only played Nintendo consoles, and most of the Xbox-Playstation business has gone over their heads. To those who did get into that all, only half of them are what the market describes as hardcore, and that's half of a half of a, maybe, a fifth.

The Wii branches out video games to people who may never play them. Case in point, when we got a Wii in my dorm room, basically everybody and their mother came around to play it and were hopelessly hooked. The Wii appeals to people who just care about having basic fun, people who don't treat video games as a hobby, people who treat them as a diversion, a distraction or something similar. The effect the Wii has on people--with games like Super Mario Galaxy--is almost magical, just the sheer amount of fun people have with it.

Nintendo isn't "abandoning" the hard-core fanbase. Mario games haven't changed in terms of presentation and aesthetics for the life of their franchise, and Mario Galaxy is more of a return to form than Mario Sunshine was. The difference is, the Wii is going after a different market, and in the process its showing people just how FUN video games can be.

Ultimately, the Wii is going to be the console that makes the world at large accept video games, because at the rate its going, and at the rate public reaction is curving, everybody is going to be playing a Wii--and everybody includes potential future Jack Thompsons.

The Wii IS a Revolution, even if it isn't called that anymore, and to say anything less than that is ignoring the basic facts.

Well, you could say the same thing about GTA. Who bought GTA? Was that everybody? Yes, it was. Everybody in the world bought a copy. Or Halo, for that matter. Or FF7 for the PSX, There have been plenty of games that really united the world as a whole, as something that everybody can play and buy.

SineSwiper wrote:Well, you could say the same thing about GTA. Who bought GTA? Was that everybody? Yes, it was. Everybody in the world bought a copy. Or Halo, for that matter. Or FF7 for the PSX, There have been plenty of games that really united the world as a whole, as something that everybody can play and buy.

Yeah, but GTA hasn't been around since people's childhoods. Nintendo has a cashable nostalgia factor, and people remember that.

Besides, a lot of the controversy has marred GTA from true mainstream acceptance. Soccer moms won't play it, but they'll play Wii Sports, for instance, or Brain Age.

SineSwiper wrote:Probably a good 2/3rds of those games are kiddie-friendly (and first-party). I really couldn't say that for the good games out for 360. Sure, you have your Pinatas and Katamaris, but it just seems like more of an adult system. Both PS3 and 360 are.

I've gotten older. I've stopped playing Mario, because I'm fucking tired of Mario. I don't want some gay colorful plumber in this gay technicolor fun land. And I certainly don't want to fly around the galaxy collecting stars all fucking day. I'm tired of Nintendo driving their characters so far deep into the ground that it's the only thing they care to release nowadays.

Call me vain. Call me shallow. Call me bitter in my old age. But sometimes, I want to enjoy an involved story with elements of politics thrown in. I want to shoot hookers in the face and drive around in fast cars on the wrong side of the street. I want to play a serious sci-fi game. I want to be a ninja and chop somebody's leg off, or play a devil that wipes out other demons. I want to be a spy and sneak around an enemy hideout. I want to, I dunno, use my HDTV for what it was made for. I want to sit down and play a game without worrying about my hand cramping up.

But, I can't do any of this on the Wii. It's annoying, and I'm not the only one that feels this way. Maybe it's because Nintendo alienated its audience by not maturing. In fact, it's de-evolving into the casual audience. Meanwhile, we're maturing, and the same kiddie colorful shit just doesn't work anymore.

So it isn't that Nintendo ain't deliverin' their stuff to their old-school devotees, it's that your tastes have changed and you're no longer interested in what they do (although Metroid could fit into your definition, minus the voiced story sequences). That's coo, but you can't blame them for not giving their fans what they want. They've done that in the first 19 months better than any system I've ever seen. Maybe the DC had as good a first year and a half, maybe, but no other system was even close. Hell, the 360 had barely anything decent for the first year other than 2 or 3 games.

SineSwiper wrote:Well, you could say the same thing about GTA. Who bought GTA? Was that everybody? Yes, it was. Everybody in the world bought a copy. Or Halo, for that matter. Or FF7 for the PSX, There have been plenty of games that really united the world as a whole, as something that everybody can play and buy.

Did you notice that Halo 3's sales DIED after the first 2 months? It's actually not nearly as appealing to the masses as it seemed. I have to check, but I think that Call of Duty 4 actually beat it handidly.

GTA4 should have legs but I'm curious to see how long. Is it gonna be Wii Play type legs? It should if the others in the series are any indication. But for the most part, the games that appeal to hardcores, save a few, die out in sales after the first month. They don't have legs like the mass-market appealing ones. GTA4 and FF7 may have been hardcore games, but they remain strong over the long term 'cause they appeal to the masses (over 80% of the gaming population) just as much

Zeus wrote:So it isn't that Nintendo ain't deliverin' their stuff to their old-school devotees, it's that your tastes have changed and you're no longer interested in what they do (although Metroid could fit into your definition, minus the voiced story sequences).

Yeah, but the old-school devotees starting playing on the NES... 25 years ago. The NES generation has grown up. Instead of adapting to change and maturing with them, they are just trying to feed a new audience.

Zeus wrote:GTA4 should have legs but I'm curious to see how long. Is it gonna be Wii Play type legs? It should if the others in the series are any indication. But for the most part, the games that appeal to hardcores, save a few, die out in sales after the first month. They don't have legs like the mass-market appealing ones. GTA4 and FF7 may have been hardcore games, but they remain strong over the long term 'cause they appeal to the masses (over 80% of the gaming population) just as much

You can't say Wii Play type legs, because that is bundleware. Stop making those comparisons. Same with WiiSports. WiiPlay is actually a pretty crappy set of games compared to Sports, but hey, free controller.

Also, just because everybody buys it immediately doesn't mean that it didn't do well. Anyway, this conversation is really about us real gamers, not the ones who buy two games a year. After all, if you try to appeal to the casual gamer, and they start buying and playing games, they aren't exactly casual any more, are they?

But Nintendo-devotees, not all those who started playing Nintendo games 23 years ago, are the ones who want what they've delivered. Excellent new Mario 3D, the first Zelda game to hold up to Ocarina, Smash Bros, Metroid Prime trilogy ender, Mario Kart, Wario Ware.....these games are HUGE for Nintendo devotees. Again, they've delivered exactly what is expected of them by their fans. That some of their old fans, including yourself, are no longer interested don't mean that they haven't delivered.

Sure Halo 3 did very well, but the point I was making is it actually wasn't nearly the success that the hype made it out to be. Call of Duty 4 actually sat on the charts longer and ended up with substantially more sales (if I remember correctly) even though it didn't have the 3.3M copies sold in the first week. It'll probably be outsold during this generation by about 20+ games I would think. What that indicates is appeal to which markets, which is the comparisons I was trying to make to help support my claim that Nintendo is actually appealing to the hardcore.

Games, like movies, that do very well early then die off are basically hardcore games. Smash Bros is going to be a perfect example of that and will further prove the point. It sold 2.4M copies in month #1, 326k copies in month #2, and I'm willing to bet it drops below 200k or even further for month #3. That trend is very consistent with hardcore games and very similar to Halo 3. And I'll give you the Wii Play thing, it's inflated 'cause of bundleware. Bad comparison.

So yes, this conversation is about gamers, those who do buy more than two games a year. That's what this conversation started out as, whether or not Nintendo's been giving the hardcores what they want. And what I'm saying is based on what they've released, there's a very strong argument that Nintendo has actually delivered to their "hardcore" crowd (the ones who buy Nintendo systems) to the best of their ability better than any company ever has in the first 19 months of the system's release. Even if you're no longer one of them.

Zeus wrote:What that indicates is appeal to which markets, which is the comparisons I was trying to make to help support my claim that Nintendo is actually appealing to the hardcore.

Nintendo isn't appealing to the "hardcore" (stupid undefined term btw), they are appealing to the same shit-ass, slowly shrinking Nintendo franchise fanboy niche they've always relied on. Luckily for Nintendo, a minor fad started up among the casuals / non-gamers. And there were enough Gen X'ers that were beginning to burn out on videogames - the Wii's promise to deliver something "new" was enticing enough to purchase (and by most accounts, regret).

Too bad they didn't deliver. What does the Wii really have going for it? Really? Shitty online. Dumbed down or absent ports? The VC titles? And can any of you really look me in the eye and TRY to claim the Wii-mote actually gave you an improved game experience? Bull.

Face it - nintendo hasn't changed it's formula...game sales reflect that. Nintendo games sell, 3rd parties don't. They could slap a mustache and overalls on a turd and you retards would still buy it. That's what the Nintendo devotees want and ya....I guess Nintendo delivered.

Sine:

1. Being one of the most anti-Nintendo person I know (I think only Kali is more so), and for the past 10+ years. How can you say Nintendo betrayed you with the Wii?

2. Do I look upset about the Wii? =P

3. Do you have any proof that these 18 million Xbox 360 owners are the same 70 million NES owners?

4. What logic makes you think that gamers who grew up with Nintendo all like games about "shooting hookers in the face" or demon on demon action nowadays?

5. Can you explain, mathematically how the 9.5 million people who bought Wii in the first 1.5 years managed to purchase over 50 million games on top of their pack in titles in that same amount of time, when they are only purchasing 2 games per year?

6. Wii owners bought WAY more consoles in the first 18 months, and each one owns more games than Xbox 360 and PS3 owners did at 18 months. What makes these so-called "hardcore gamers" who bought xbox 360 special if they aren't even playing as many different games as these "casual gamers" who bought the Wii?

7. I find "selling out" to be an interesting description for a company who created something original. Explain how creating new and unique products is selling out?

8. If jocks are the ones buying games about fitness, then what type of people buy games about shooting hookers in the face?

9. If Nintendo is spending all of their hard work producing a game about excersizing then how do you account for Mario Galaxy, Smash Brothers, Mario Kart, Zelda, Metroid, among other games released in the first 18 months by Nintendo? What other system did Nintendo ever release such an abundant line-up of fan favourite titles?

10.

SineSwiper wrote:I want to be a ninja and chop somebody's leg off

I really don't know if mature is really the right word to describe you =P

kali o. wrote:

Zeus wrote:What that indicates is appeal to which markets, which is the comparisons I was trying to make to help support my claim that Nintendo is actually appealing to the hardcore.

Nintendo isn't appealing to the "hardcore" (stupid undefined term btw), they are appealing to the same shit-ass, slowly shrinking Nintendo franchise fanboy niche they've always relied on. Luckily for Nintendo, a minor fad started up among the casuals / non-gamers. And there were enough Gen X'ers that were beginning to burn out on videogames - the Wii's promise to deliver something "new" was enticing enough to purchase (and by most accounts, regret).

Too bad they didn't deliver. What does the Wii really have going for it? Really? Shitty online. Dumbed down or absent ports? The VC titles? And can any of you really look me in the eye and TRY to claim the Wii-mote actually gave you an improved game experience? Bull.

Face it - nintendo hasn't changed it's formula...game sales reflect that. Nintendo games sell, 3rd parties don't. They could slap a mustache and overalls on a turd and you retards would still buy it. That's what the Nintendo devotees want and ya....I guess Nintendo delivered.

What happened to all those PS2 owners this generation?

Third party sales on Wii are fine. In the end you can't argue against numbers, 60% of 50 million is still more sales than all 28 million games sold on xbox 360 in its first 18 months.

Dutch wrote:Third party sales on Wii are fine. In the end you can't argue against numbers, 60% of 50 million is still more sales than all 28 million games sold on xbox 360 in its first 18 months.

Ten first-party DS titles shipped over a million units, with Pokemon Diamond/Pearl shipping 9.56 million worldwide cumulatively in the previous fiscal year.

This is Nintendo's core audience, people. Kids that play Pokemon.

Also, to counter your "third party" argument, the biggest sellers are non-exclusives or remakes: RE4, GH3. The "Mario and Sonic" game doesn't count, since it's just another first-party game in third's clothing. Rayman's still on the list, but it's really just a funny party game (again with the casual audience).

On the flip side, 360/PS3 are nothing but third-party titles. About the only thing MS has going for itself is Halo and Fable.

Just for the record, Mario and Sonic Olympics was developed by Sega Sports; that would make it a third party developed title. The existence of Mario and Sonic in a game together is something that really boosted sales though.

Kids who play Pokemon are not Nintendo's core audience, they're new gamers like those who caught on later with other newer products like Wii Sports and Wii Fit. Nintendo's core audience are mostly people in their mid 20's to mid 30's who have been buying Nintendo products since the NES era.

SineSwiper wrote:On the flip side, 360/PS3 are nothing but third-party titles. About the only thing MS has going for itself is Halo and Fable.

Microshaft published both Mass Effect and Gears

Yep, as well as the games in the Forza and PGR series. The first Viva game also did a lot better than most people think it did, and Crackdown sold well and is a solid base to build a franchise on, now. Sony is also sitting on a stable of powerful franchises.

It's not that Microsoft and Sony rely utterly on third-party developers; it's just that the sales of their systems are, unlike Nintendo's, assisted by them.

Publishing doesn't count. Most of Nintendo's games are made with their own studios. (Retro Studios is owned by Nintendo, btw.)

Huh? Why does publishing not count?

SineSwiper wrote:Publishing doesn't count. Most of Nintendo's games are made with their own studios. (Retro Studios is owned by Nintendo, btw.)

M$ will give them the money, sometimes facilities, and support to make the games as well as impose deadlines and their will (as desired) over the games. A second-party relationship is barely different than a first party one

kali o. wrote:Luckily for Nintendo, a minor fad started up among the casuals / non-gamers.

"Minor fad"? Are you sure about that? A year later, Nintendo is still selling them about as fast as they can make 'em. You can argue it's a long-running fad, but certainly not a minor fad.

Also, while luck always has something to do with it, what's happening is exactly what Nintendo planned on.

SineSwiper wrote: This is Nintendo's core audience, people. Kids that play Pokemon.

There's no Pokemon title on Wii.

SineSwiper wrote:Also, to counter your "third party" argument, the biggest sellers are non-exclusives or remakes: RE4, GH3.

The fact that GH3 and RE4 are non-exclusive is a demonstration of Wii's ability to compete with other consoles.

SineSwiper wrote:The "Mario and Sonic" game doesn't count, since it's just another first-party game in third's clothing. Rayman's still on the list, but it's really just a funny party game (again with the casual audience).

You have only demonstrated here that you don't know what a third party or a first party game is.

Funny how you consider a game developed and published by a third party to be a first party title, and a title published by a first party to be a third party title.

CONSOLE WARZ!

Kupek wrote:

kali o. wrote:Luckily for Nintendo, a minor fad started up among the casuals / non-gamers.

"Minor fad"? Are you sure about that? A year later, Nintendo is still selling them about as fast as they can make 'em. You can argue it's a long-running fad, but certainly not a minor fad.

Also, while luck always has something to do with it, what's happening is exactly what Nintendo planned on.

It's such a minor fad that EA set up EA Casual as a whole separate division and a lot of the major companies have a strong focus on the "casual" market

I'm sure they all think it won't last either

Zeus wrote:

Kupek wrote:

kali o. wrote:Luckily for Nintendo, a minor fad started up among the casuals / non-gamers.

"Minor fad"? Are you sure about that? A year later, Nintendo is still selling them about as fast as they can make 'em. You can argue it's a long-running fad, but certainly not a minor fad.

Also, while luck always has something to do with it, what's happening is exactly what Nintendo planned on.

It's such a minor fad that EA set up EA Casual as a whole separate division and a lot of the major companies have a strong focus on the "casual" market

I'm sure they all think it won't last either

This minor fad is also dominating the videogame marketplace having sold more hardware than anyone in all three major markets (despite coming latest to the starting line, much later than Xbox 360); Month to month, there is more more software, accessories, and hardware selling for the Wii than anyone else. If the top game of the generation on Xbox 360 (Grand Theft Auto 4) is only going to sell 188,000 consoles vs. 700,000+ Wiis, then it is obvious which direction the marketplace is going.

I think the Xbox fans on this board are mostly just jealous of the Wiis massive success and are finding silly ways to try and rationalize it or downplay it. The numbers are showing that Wii owners buy more systems, games, and own more games per console than the competition in comparable time periods; the fact that Xbox fans call themselves "hardcore" is quite laughable =P

I really don't see casual gaming brought on by the Wii to be a threat to Xbox, PS3, etc. Mainly because they're two SEPARATE markets. Nintendo finally tapped a market everyone wanted because unlike Sony and MS they were willing to alienate their hardcore players to do so. And really, with the results they've gotten I don't blame them.

But still, I wouldn't count Wii / 360 & PS3 in the same market at this point. Nintendo never wanted to compete with the big boys and now they don't have to because they're catering to a separate audience. This is a NEW market, not Nintendo dominating the original one.

Tessian wrote:I really don't see casual gaming brought on by the Wii to be a threat to Xbox, PS3, etc. Mainly because they're two SEPARATE markets. Nintendo finally tapped a market everyone wanted because unlike Sony and MS they were willing to alienate their hardcore players to do so. And really, with the results they've gotten I don't blame them.

But still, I wouldn't count Wii / 360 & PS3 in the same market at this point. Nintendo never wanted to compete with the big boys and now they don't have to because they're catering to a separate audience. This is a NEW market, not Nintendo dominating the original one.

I don't quite buy the "hardcore gamer" argument largely because of attachment rate and generation comparison:

1. The Wii had the highest attachment rate in the first 18 months of any system in the past 2 generations (perhaps of any generation);

2. While Xbox 360 sales remained relatively in line with Xbox sales, PS3 sales dropped off significantly from the PS2 sales. On the other side, Wii sales have risen significantly from Gamecube sales. This would indicate that a large portion of PS2 gamers have gone on to buy a Wii.

The Xbox 360 is a different market from the Sony and Nintendo systems. The Xbox 360 fanbase are largely PC gamers. The Sony and Nintendo userbases are largely traditional console gamers.

I guess all that argument with Sine and respective support discussing how Nintendo has actually been supporting its "hardcore" fan as much as it possibly can has fallen on deaf ears

Zeus wrote:I guess all that argument with Sine and respective support discussing how Nintendo has actually been supporting its "hardcore" fan as much as it possibly can has fallen on deaf ears

Well I think he is upset that they haven't released a Pokemon game for Wii since according to him that is all hardcore Nintendo fans play.

Zeus wrote:I guess all that argument with Sine and respective support discussing how Nintendo has actually been supporting its "hardcore" fan as much as it possibly can has fallen on deaf ears

Well, I could say the same with you. So far, we have three people here saying the same thing, and supporting my claim. Yet, you two Nintendo zealots refuse to listen to what everybody is saying.

(Okay, you're a fanboy, and Seeker is a zealot. Also, I'm skipping past Seeker's replies, because, well, he's an idiot, and I don't like arguing with him. He has a tendency to completely ignore what you say and just reply with some stupid minor point that you made in some completely over-the-top condescending manner.)

Everybody I know of who was a core gamer and bought a Wii, either:

1. Was disappointed in its purchase and sold it back
2. Bought a second console because the Wii just wasn't delivering
3. Ended up focusing more on PC games or just other activities (TV, Internet, sports, whatever) in general

BTW, Zeus, you yourself fall into item #2. Just how much do you play your 360, in comparison to your Wii? I'm sorta between 1 and 2. I gave it to my parents, so that when I'm bored with my 360 (after years and years of playing it), I'll get a few months out of the Wii. I didn't really play much out of my GameCube, either, but I did enjoy the few really good games that were out for it (Metriod, RE4, Viewitiful Joe, Zelda: A Three Hour Tour, A Three Hour Tour).

In terms of the previous generation, I could have lived with just one console and been happy. There were only a few good games on the XBox and GC that I wanted to play. In this generation, it's basically the same story.

Thanks for confirming, Sine

Dutch wrote:
I don't quite buy the "hardcore gamer" argument largely because of attachment rate and generation comparison:

1. The Wii had the highest attachment rate in the first 18 months of any system in the past 2 generations (perhaps of any generation);

2. While Xbox 360 sales remained relatively in line with Xbox sales, PS3 sales dropped off significantly from the PS2 sales. On the other side, Wii sales have risen significantly from Gamecube sales. This would indicate that a large portion of PS2 gamers have gone on to buy a Wii.

The Xbox 360 is a different market from the Sony and Nintendo systems. The Xbox 360 fanbase are largely PC gamers. The Sony and Nintendo userbases are largely traditional console gamers.

I don't buy this at all. Your whole point here is built on the assumption that the gamer community is a stagnant steady number of members. In your explanation nobody stops playing games, nobody gets old enough to play games, and no one buys multiple consoles.

Too many variables

Sine, it's not my fault you are making such ridiculous posts; I you didn't, I wouldn't ridicule you. The issue with you is that your arguments are all laughable conjecture supported with evidence like "Everybody I know of who was a core gamer" which cannot be verified by anyone here.

You completely disregard factual information coming out with statements such as all Nintendo fans are kids who play Pokemon, despite the fact that there isn't even a Pokemon game on Wii. These statements only really demonstrate that you probably don't really have a clue as to what you're talking about.


I'm sorry, but you started off with a post that is just completely absurd coming from you. I am actually surprised it wasn't a joke, because you really did have me laughing =P

SineSwiper wrote:Congratulations, Nintendo. You did it. You successfully tapped into the casual gamer market, and it only cost you your devoted fans who supported you since the NES days. How does that feel? Selling out, I mean. Capitalizing on the grandpas and the bored housewives, and the jocks that only buy two games a year. Spending all of that hard work to produce a game about exercising? Nice.

Now, if you don't mind, us "hard" "core" gamers are going to be playing on the 360, and maybe the DS, since you haven't fucked up that market yet.

Used to be Yours,

Your Former Fans

Knowing that you are serious, do you know how stupid you sound saying grandpas and bored housewives are the reason that Nintendo is destroying Sony and Microsoft (which I suppose you feel all the hardcore gamers support)? I mean, seriously, are you are you really THAT dense to the world around you? Of course, you DID sign your post with "Your former fans" as though you're somehow their voice.

So, you'll have to excuse me for being condescending, but I really can't help it =P

Tessian wrote:

Dutch wrote:
I don't quite buy the "hardcore gamer" argument largely because of attachment rate and generation comparison:

1. The Wii had the highest attachment rate in the first 18 months of any system in the past 2 generations (perhaps of any generation);

2. While Xbox 360 sales remained relatively in line with Xbox sales, PS3 sales dropped off significantly from the PS2 sales. On the other side, Wii sales have risen significantly from Gamecube sales. This would indicate that a large portion of PS2 gamers have gone on to buy a Wii.

The Xbox 360 is a different market from the Sony and Nintendo systems. The Xbox 360 fanbase are largely PC gamers. The Sony and Nintendo userbases are largely traditional console gamers.

I don't buy this at all. Your whole point here is built on the assumption that the gamer community is a stagnant steady number of members. In your explanation nobody stops playing games, nobody gets old enough to play games, and no one buys multiple consoles.

Too many variables

What you say is true, it's not static, but I don't think it is going to fluctuate THAT much. In order for a fluctuation that large to occur, a whole lot of gamers would have to quit gaming, only to be replaced by a whole lot of people who didn't game before.

What we do know, the videogame market has indeed grown, there are more people buying games and gaming systems now than there were before. I would rather subscribe to the theory that would state the following:

Traditional gamers actually like casual games; I think a lot of traditional gamers enjoy Nintendo's newer franchises (like Wii Sports, Wario Ware, and now Wii Fit), and that that is where a lot of the PS2 audience is going. Of course, a lot of new people who hadn't played videogames since the NES era, or not at all before, are discovering the Wii as well; the controls are quite accessible to newer gamers.