The Shrine

Mei Ling isn't cute?

Also: FFXII kicked ass.

RentCavalier wrote:Also: FFXII kicked ass.

Except the story totally sucked. I was HIGHLY disappointed in how light the politics were and how they just left certain things hanging (the Occuria). FFT had 10x a better story than FFXXI. The music for FFT was also 10x better. (FFXII only really had one good song in the game.)

But, it did have the best gameplay of any RPG.

Although I like the story of FF12, for all its alleged focus on politics, you sure spend most of your time as a monster exterminator. It's like politics, without any people involved. FFT doesn't necessarily have better characters, but you're always involved with the guys making all the political stuff so their presence has meaning.

FF12 had a great political story that your characters take nearly no part of.

the political part of the story was predominantly Larsa and Gabranth. it would've been so much better to run with those two guys as the core of the party with supporting cast of Drace and a few others like Al-Cid, Reddas, Zargabaath, etc.

FF12 with Ashe and Vaan is like FFT with the Galthanas as the main characters.

Ashe is basically a trophy that Balthier and Bashe lugs around. The only time they need her to do anything is if there's some door that only someone of the royal Damascan blood can open (and there's a lot of those). Vaan and Penelo are more like news reporters then actually doing anything useful. Of course this is intended, but it'd probably be a much better story if the key players in the political aspect actually interacted with each other as opposed to being an elite malboro exterminator.

I call bullshit Don Wang, Ashe drags Balthier around more than anyone else--he's the most reluctant one of the bunch. Ashe really drives the entire plot forward herself.

Ashe is basically one step about Yuna in FFX2 when it comes to the stupidity and the number of crackpot idea she comes with. In a game that is supposed to be all about politics and getting people to back your causes, Ashe basically achieved political suicide by being declared as dead (she never cleared it up with the masses, so as far as any normal guy is concerned, she doesn't exist). She pretty much resorts to trying to rally around ancient myths, and ends up not using these stuff anyway so she's just telling people to go to these random places opening doors only she can open for no purpose whatsoever. She can't even pay for some mercernary service. The whole point was that transition from Age of Stone to Age of Men is possible precisely because Ashe did nothing so that history is not shaped by the Occurian's will. That is fine but it doesn't change the fact that she did nothing.

Ever since I met the Occurian, I thought "Hey, that's the real enemy". That was the only part of the plot that actually interested me. But instead of trying to defeat that enemy, we defeat Vayne, and NOTHING IS EVER DONE to the Occurian! Drove me fucking crazy, because I kept thinking that they would go back to them to get rid of that menace.

There was not the sense of despair that you got from FFT. In FFT, you saw how commoners were treated (like shit), with an entire chapter revolving around that theme. You saw everybody trying everything in their power to elevate themselves (except yourself and your crew, who were just trying to survive), ranging from backstabbing friends to assassinations. You saw that even the religious icons were bullshit and they were worshiping an evil deity. Even Ramza's own brother (Dycedarg) kills his other brother (Zalbag) after finding out that Dycedarg killed his father by poison, and then Zalbag gets brought back as a zombie, which Ramza is forced to kill. Even the writer of the story was killed during heresy charges for trying to tell the truth of the Lion War, and the whole story is only brought back to life 50 years later by the narrator.

By the time you finish the game, you truly believe that you overcame the odds, and you get a glimpse of what happened on the other side after all of the backstabbing, and what it got them in the end. With FF12, I was just confused by dumb reactions and predictable betrayals.

SineSwiper wrote:Ever since I met the Occurian, I thought "Hey, that's the real enemy". That was the only part of the plot that actually interested me. But instead of trying to defeat that enemy, we defeat Vayne, and NOTHING IS EVER DONE to the Occurian! Drove me fucking crazy, because I kept thinking that they would go back to them to get rid of that menace.

There was not the sense of despair that you got from FFT. In FFT, you saw how commoners were treated (like shit), with an entire chapter revolving around that theme. You saw everybody trying everything in their power to elevate themselves (except yourself and your crew, who were just trying to survive), ranging from backstabbing friends to assassinations. You saw that even the religious icons were bullshit and they were worshiping an evil deity. Even Ramza's own brother (Dycedarg) kills his other brother (Zalbag) after finding out that Dycedarg killed his father by poison, and then Zalbag gets brought back as a zombie, which Ramza is forced to kill. Even the writer of the story was killed during heresy charges for trying to tell the truth of the Lion War, and the whole story is only brought back to life 50 years later by the narrator.

By the time you finish the game, you truly believe that you overcame the odds, and you get a glimpse of what happened on the other side after all of the backstabbing, and what it got them in the end. With FF12, I was just confused by dumb reactions and predictable betrayals.

That's because Matsuno wasn't allowed as much charge over the story as he should have had. It frustrated him to the point that he ended up having a break-down in the middle of the project.

I played FF12 over a span of about 7 (or more) months, so I was completely lost most times I hit major plot points. Surprisingly, Seeker's point is valid: I think Matsuno had a clear story and themes he wanted to deal with, but things changed when he left. If Vaan and Penelo seem incidental to the plot, that's probably because they were tacked on at the end for the player to have a vantage point.

Oh, screw it, I'll just borrow Jeremy Parish's words directly.

And in fact, the conflict between the two visions eventually proved too great to reconcile. Matsuno left Square, and the game's development, amidst a flurry of rumor and innuendo. Did he go nuts? Did he have a breakdown? Yeah, maybe. But maybe not. Maybe more concrete clues to his departure can be found by reading between the lines of the FFXII Scenario Ultimania book, which reportedly includes info on Matsuno's original conceptual treatments for the game. In his vision, FFXII would have had more in common with his PlayStation magnum opus Vagrant Story? -- a dark tale with a mature main character seeking to unmake the betrayal that destroyed his life: Basch.

The gulf between this alternate reality of FFXII and what we were actually given, the one starring plucky teenaged protagonist Vaan, suggests that Matsuno's departure had more to do with an auteur unwilling to compromise his creation than it did with panic attacks. Whatever the case, Square Enix certainly isn't talking -- I even asked the game's pinch-hitter replacement producer, Akitoshi Kawazu, myself -- so until Matsuno fills us in, it's all just a load of unfounded speculation anyway.

From Parish's long but insightful review: http://www.gamespite.net/toastywiki/ind ... FantasyXII

Ahhh, that explains everything. Good job, Square! Fucked up another one!

I always thought the whole point of FFT is life is tough, good doesn't always win, and even if you saved the world, you may still be forgotten and live like a hermit for the rest of your life like Ramza. And even if you truly loved someone, they might just stab you in the heart (Delita & Ovelia). And honestly, Ramza had no clue how to stop the world. He was just showing up to random places and killing random people but he was powerless to stop the war unless he was going to just kill everybody that is involved in the war.

Kupek wrote:I played FF12 over a span of about 7 (or more) months, so I was completely lost most times I hit major plot points. Surprisingly, Seeker's point is valid: I think Matsuno had a clear story and themes he wanted to deal with, but things changed when he left. If Vaan and Penelo seem incidental to the plot, that's probably because they were tacked on at the end for the player to have a vantage point.

Oh, screw it, I'll just borrow Jeremy Parish's words directly.

And in fact, the conflict between the two visions eventually proved too great to reconcile. Matsuno left Square, and the game's development, amidst a flurry of rumor and innuendo. Did he go nuts? Did he have a breakdown? Yeah, maybe. But maybe not. Maybe more concrete clues to his departure can be found by reading between the lines of the FFXII Scenario Ultimania book, which reportedly includes info on Matsuno's original conceptual treatments for the game. In his vision, FFXII would have had more in common with his PlayStation magnum opus Vagrant Story? -- a dark tale with a mature main character seeking to unmake the betrayal that destroyed his life: Basch.

The gulf between this alternate reality of FFXII and what we were actually given, the one starring plucky teenaged protagonist Vaan, suggests that Matsuno's departure had more to do with an auteur unwilling to compromise his creation than it did with panic attacks. Whatever the case, Square Enix certainly isn't talking -- I even asked the game's pinch-hitter replacement producer, Akitoshi Kawazu, myself -- so until Matsuno fills us in, it's all just a load of unfounded speculation anyway.

From Parish's long but insightful review: http://www.gamespite.net/toastywiki/ind ... FantasyXII

Well, you can argue the main character of FF12 is either Basch or Balthier, but it sure isn't Vaan or Ashe. I'd lean more toward Basch, but the game never capitalized on him & Gabranth, mostly because you don't get to fight Gabranth until the 2nd to last dungeon in the game.

It's true--had Matsuno not left, the game would have been incredible.

The game was incredible, but it could have been moreso. Oh well. Hopefully Matsuno will resurface someday.

Andrew, Killer Bee wrote:The game was incredible, but it could have been moreso. Oh well. Hopefully Matsuno will resurface someday.

I have a feeling that Square didn't want to "pollute" their Final Fantasy series name with a dark tale, even though both FFT and Vagrant Story were very well received and made a ton of money. Square went the sell out route, something that would be tailored to the mass audience.

It's a damn shame, too, because Square used to be a company that took risks. Where is Matsuno now? Treasure?

EDIT:

The Review wrote:No doubt XIII will feature very impressive visuals and some clever combat rules and impressive character-twinking possibilities and an inventive new take on the concept of amnesiac heroes who have to save the the world from a beautiful, porcelain-skinned megalomaniac that wants to become a new god. But it likely won't be a brilliant, innovative fusion of numerous disparate styles, a synthesis of western and eastern RPG tradition, a collaboration of single- and multi-player RPG concepts.

My thoughts exactly.

SineSwiper wrote:Ahhh, that explains everything. Good job, Square! Fucked up another one!

They did the same thing to Tetsuya Takahashi (Xenogears) as well. Of course, they messed over Matsuno worse, but in the end Square lost two of their best people.

Oh, and on Matsuno's whereabouts: E3 should shed some light =)

RentCavalier wrote:It's true--had Matsuno not left, the game would have been incredible.

if Matsuno hadn't left, the game would still not be out yet. SE definitely screwed FF12 up from being a much better game than it could be but i doubt Matsuno should be free from blame for the whole fiasco.

SineSwiper wrote:But instead of trying to defeat that enemy, we defeat Vayne, and NOTHING IS EVER DONE to the Occurian! Drove me fucking crazy, because I kept thinking that they would go back to them to get rid of that menace.

you're supposed to believe that Ashe was the handpicked tool of the Occurian and since she defied them and allowed the Sun-Cryst to be destroyed the hold the Occurians have on the world is also severed. the Occurian are suppose to have some pact of no direct involvement so once their tool was lost they are no longer a threat.

it wasn't presented well and it's not really convincing but that's what they wanted you to think.

Don Wang wrote:Well, you can argue the main character of FF12 is either Basch or Balthier, but it sure isn't Vaan or Ashe. I'd lean more toward Basch, but the game never capitalized on him & Gabranth, mostly because you don't get to fight Gabranth until the 2nd to last dungeon in the game.

why is Basch important at all? he seemed completely filler to me after Leviathan. Ashe was a crappy main character but she made all the decisions in the storyline once she established herself in the party.

Ashe is the one making decisions but she had no signifcance in the game. She obviously doesn't possess super human powers unlike random guy that were infusing themselves with Nethicites. She has no political power because she is technically still dead. She pretty much was counting on holding up something like the Swords of Kings that will magically solve everything, and found out the hard way that no one cares about these things anymore. Really the only thing she could've done was inject herself with Nethicite like Cid does, except she doesn't do that so she ends up doing nothing.

As the game clearly shows, anyone can wield the Sword of Kings. Indeed it was Reddas who destroyed the Sun-Cryst that forever broke the Occuria's power base. In the climatic battle at the Sun-Cryst you basically have Ashe holding the Sword of Kings looking very confused. You got Vaan who tries to look cool while holding up the Treaty Blade with the look "yeah I'm going to destroy this!" even though we know the Sun-Cryst cannot be destroyed by the Treaty Blade (you need the Sword of Kings). And just when you think they'll have some cheesy moment when Ashe and Vaan tries to say combine their power and both smack the Sun-Cryst, it's like Reddas decided he's had enough watching these dumb kids and just took the sword himself and got the job done.

At this point you realize the only purpose Ashe exists is that she has to be the one who opens the door to get the Sword of Kings, and maybe the door in the tower only opens for her, but then you could always take the villian's special backdoor like Gabranth and Cid did. Her function in the game is to deliver the Sword of Kings and after that there's no reason for her to be there.

Don Wang wrote:Her function in the game is to deliver the Sword of Kings and after that there's no reason for her to be there.

but that's the whole game, the game ends after she delivers the Sword of Kings to the Sun-Cryst (Bahamut is a lose end that's mostly unrelated to the majority of the story before it). it's true that anyone can use the sword but she was necessary in getting it and she was necessary on deciding who gets to use it.

that is the main reason why the story is lame, because ultimately the most important role of the whole party is a fetch quest. but within this fetch quest, Ashe is the main character.

your entire explanation supports why Ashe's quest is lame, which i agree with and wasn't the point i was contesting. what i was asking is, why do you think Basch or Balthier were more important within this lame quest. their function seems even less important than her's in the grand scheme.

they both could have and very like would've made better main characters (though my first choice is still Larsa), but in the existing game the way it's presented i'm not sure how anyone can argue Ashe is not the most important.

Well it depends on if you see FF12's story as either:

1. Breaking the Occuria's grip on humanity
or
2. The battle between the Arcadian Empire, the Rebels, what's left of Dalmasca, and the other guys elsewhere.

If you say it's #1 than Ashe has to be the main character because by definition she's the only one who can get the Sword of Kings. However, if the story is really #1, then what could have happened is she can just go home after retrieving the Sword of Kings. However, the story did not end after you get the Sword of Kings from the King's tomb. She's obviously going around still trying to exert some kind of impact in the war, which she utterly failed to do. Basch's presence in early in the story is what responsible for the rise of the rebellion. Balthier confronts Cid during the Arcadia arc. Certainly the most involved person in the whole war effort would be Larsa if we don't include Vayne. I cannot agree that someone who has no involvement in the political department, and someone whose involvement with the Occuria side of the story is limited to picking up the Sword of Kings, is the main character. Cid and Reddas both done a lot more to break the Occuria's grip on humanity.