The Shrine

How's about ya'll release me a #2 that improves on the original, first

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/942/942193p1.html

And what racing game do you guys think he's talking about in that article? I'm certain it's Project Gotham Racing

Need For Speed.

Zeus wrote:How's about ya'll release me a #2 that improves on the original, first

What the hell was wrong with the first?! You act like it wasn't an awesome game.

I think he's just trying to say that they're really getting ahead of themselves in thinking that the second game won't be shit in comparison to the first.

Nowhere do I read any disrespect to the 2nd greatest game from last year.

Heh, 2nd greatest? What was first? (Of course, there were a ton of great games that year.)

mass effect

As much as I like ME (it was my 2007 GOTY), I'm kind of soured on it because Bioware lied about expanding it. More than a year later and all they've done is Bringing Down the Sky. And now they've likely got everybody working on SW:tOR and Dragon Age.

I'm probably four hours or so into Bioshock. I really haven't played a game like this in a long time. Honestly though, the game creeps me out. I've also only been saving the "Little Ones." For some reason I feel somewhat lost in the game mechanics (such as weapon and plasma selection; I still haven't figured out how to add more plasma slots; still haven't exactly figured out the genetic engineering tonics) but its probably just because my gaming has been limited to MMOs for so many years. The only reason I even purchased Bioshock was because it was $4.99 on Steam a few weeks ago. Right now, the game is average in my book, but its still early on. For some reason I can never find a game that catches my attention other than an MMO.

SineSwiper wrote:

Zeus wrote:How's about ya'll release me a #2 that improves on the original, first

What the hell was wrong with the first?! You act like it wasn't an awesome game.

Oh, it was freakin' great. But before you start talking like a series, let's make sure it's not a one-hit wonder

Bioshock is an awesome game that I never get to play because it scares me. hahaha I am a few hours in also, but I never play it because I am usually playing alone in my basement.

Louis, it's a relatively basic setup. You just use your Adam that you get from saving the Little Sisters to buy stuff from the specialized machines, including extra slots. You don't really see it 'til a couple of areas in so you may not have run across them yet. And you're probably so used to unnecessary complexity of MMOs and RTSs that you think it's harder than it really is :-)

Loxy, just play the damned thing. The atmosphere is awesome and it's like watching a good horror/suspense flick. Sure it's scary but rewarding as hell at the same time. And it has a great story setup as well. Brave it and you won't be disappointed.

Lox I HATE survival horror games, but this wasn't nearly that bad. There were a few scenes that unnerved me a bit. It's not a very scary game, or at least that's not it's main attempt. It's farrr from Dead Space

did someone say deadspace?

have you guys played that game yet?

get on it!

bovine wrote:did someone say deadspace?

have you guys played that game yet?

get on it!

I've heard nothing but good things about it, but I can't play games that are trying to scare me so I have to pass :\

why do you not play these games?

Zeus wrote:Oh, it was freakin' great. But before you start talking like a series, let's make sure it's not a one-hit wonder

Ummm...these are the same guys that gave us the System Shock, Deus Ex, and Thief series. System Shock 2 is still one of my favorite all-time games, and Deus Ex is a great series, too. (Though, I hadn't beat Deus Ex yet.)

So, no, it's not a one-hit wonder. They've had a lot of experience making excellent games. BioShock actually followed a similar format in story and gameplay as System Shock 2. (No surprise there, considering the naming.)

bovine wrote:did someone say deadspace?

What's Dead Space?

Blotus wrote:

bovine wrote:did someone say deadspace?

What's Dead Space?

bovine's SUPA SURPRISE GOTY!

bovine wrote:why do you not play these games?

If you're asking me, it's because I just don't like games that try to scare you. They make me all tense and paranoid because I'm just waiting for something to jump out at me and that's not how I want to feel while playing a game. I couldn't finish Doom 3 because of this. Survival horror is just not a genre I enjoy playing

Tessian wrote:Lox I HATE survival horror games, but this wasn't nearly that bad. There were a few scenes that unnerved me a bit. It's not a very scary game, or at least that's not it's main attempt. It's farrr from Dead Space

Bioshock is a first-person shooter, not a survival horror game. It just happens to have a solid, tense story

Tessian wrote:

bovine wrote:why do you not play these games?

If you're asking me, it's because I just don't like games that try to scare you. They make me all tense and paranoid because I'm just waiting for something to jump out at me and that's not how I want to feel while playing a game. I couldn't finish Doom 3 because of this. Survival horror is just not a genre I enjoy playing

I agree, this is the reason I don't play survival horror, as well. I'm not against horror as a genre - I love horror movies. I'd say Rec was the best foreign AND horror movie I saw last year. I feel bad because The Diving Bell and the Butterfly was better but I enjoyed Rec more.

Also I'm pretty sure Tess was saying that he happened to enjoy Bioshock more than Dead Space because it wasn't a survival horror game.

Personally, I stopped playing Bioshock after an hour in. Wasn't thrilled with the mechanics.. I didn't like the powers, honestly.

Zeus wrote:

Tessian wrote:Lox I HATE survival horror games, but this wasn't nearly that bad. There were a few scenes that unnerved me a bit. It's not a very scary game, or at least that's not it's main attempt. It's farrr from Dead Space

Bioshock is a first-person shooter, not a survival horror game. It just happens to have a solid, tense story

That's exactly what I was trying to say... I don't like survival horror, but Bioshock is not a scary game

Tessian wrote:

bovine wrote:why do you not play these games?

If you're asking me, it's because I just don't like games that try to scare you. They make me all tense and paranoid because I'm just waiting for something to jump out at me and that's not how I want to feel while playing a game. I couldn't finish Doom 3 because of this. Survival horror is just not a genre I enjoy playing

How do you play L4D?

I don't find L4D scary at all. The rush you get when something goes wrong is akin to a zerg rush in StarCraft - it just pushes you into overdrive trying to take care of it.

Deadspace is more of an action game than survival horror. The way of storytelling in Deadspace is along the lines of system shock, but it plays like an upgraded version of resident evil 4 (and better than the RE5 demo if you ask me).

It's not scary, it's just tense. I did jump (out of fright) once when an enemy came crashing through a wall behind me, and since it was a 3rd person camera (and the amazing 5.1 in the game) I jumped, and quickly ran away from the situation.

Shrinweck wrote:Personally, I stopped playing Bioshock after an hour in. Wasn't thrilled with the mechanics.. I didn't like the powers, honestly.

Uhhh, wow, you what? Playing for an hour doesn't even give the game a chance. Protip: if a game wins several awards for being Game of the Year, you should play it much longer than that.

Blotus wrote:

Tessian wrote:

bovine wrote:why do you not play these games?

If you're asking me, it's because I just don't like games that try to scare you. They make me all tense and paranoid because I'm just waiting for something to jump out at me and that's not how I want to feel while playing a game. I couldn't finish Doom 3 because of this. Survival horror is just not a genre I enjoy playing

How do you play L4D?

L4D isn't really scary. The fact that you have comrades makes a big difference too

Okay, so you're a pansy either way though, ya?

SineSwiper wrote:

Shrinweck wrote:Personally, I stopped playing Bioshock after an hour in. Wasn't thrilled with the mechanics.. I didn't like the powers, honestly.

Uhhh, wow, you what? Playing for an hour doesn't even give the game a chance. Protip: if a game wins several awards for being Game of the Year, you should play it much longer than that.

The game didn't interest me at all. I'm not playing a game that doesn't interest me just because it got some awards.

bovine wrote:Deadspace is more of an action game than survival horror. The way of storytelling in Deadspace is along the lines of system shock, but it plays like an upgraded version of resident evil 4 (and better than the RE5 demo if you ask me).

It's not scary, it's just tense. I did jump (out of fright) once when an enemy came crashing through a wall behind me, and since it was a 3rd person camera (and the amazing 5.1 in the game) I jumped, and quickly ran away from the situation.

I dunno. I found the tense atmosphere and some genuine scares in that game. the whole zero grav sections scared the piss out of me.....the audio job was absolutely amazing....has you on edge the whole time and completely aware of your surroundings. I'm actually with you after finishing it at work that it might be the supa suprise game of the year.....if fallout 3 had an ending I would have given it to that but deadspace is an amazingly creepy game that you can only play at night

Bioshock was fun, and I reccomend folks play it through, but I have never really had too much need to replay it once I beat it. It's sort of shallow, and so linear that it actually hurts. I mean, you have this big world to explore, but you never HAVE to explore it--in fact, there's absolutely no reason to. My whole overriding emotion was "This place is fucking NUTS, I have to leave", and my whole mentality was just that.

It failed in its one major goal, and that was the whole "philosophy" presented in the narrative. Ostenably, your actions within Rapture are supposed to be defining moments in your life--the city and its story influences you to either be a saint or a sinner. However, in execution, there isn't ANY of that. Sure, you were used and manipulated for most of the story, but the end goal is still "I'm in a bad situation, I need to find a way to get OUT of here." and that is it.

Also doesn't help that the plot seems to more or less rip off System Shock 2, even down to the big "twist" halfway through.

Fine game, great atmosphere...but too shallow and a little hokey/gimmicky.

Ahh, I've been off these boards for too long. It's been like, what, a week? Heh.

RentCavalier wrote:Bioshock was fun, and I reccomend folks play it through, but I have never really had too much need to replay it once I beat it. It's sort of shallow, and so linear that it actually hurts. I mean, you have this big world to explore, but you never HAVE to explore it--in fact, there's absolutely no reason to. My whole overriding emotion was "This place is fucking NUTS, I have to leave", and my whole mentality was just that.

It failed in its one major goal, and that was the whole "philosophy" presented in the narrative. Ostenably, your actions within Rapture are supposed to be defining moments in your life--the city and its story influences you to either be a saint or a sinner. However, in execution, there isn't ANY of that. Sure, you were used and manipulated for most of the story, but the end goal is still "I'm in a bad situation, I need to find a way to get OUT of here." and that is it.

Also doesn't help that the plot seems to more or less rip off System Shock 2, even down to the big "twist" halfway through.

Fine game, great atmosphere...but too shallow and a little hokey/gimmicky.

Ahh, I've been off these boards for too long. It's been like, what, a week? Heh. >:)

I completely disagree.

First, System Shock 2 was made by the same team, so if they are going to rip off some of the feel of the game from another game, one of their own is usually expected, especially of the game is going to be called BioSHOCK. ("No fair! SMB2 ripped off of SMB1!") I think the plot was a lot different from SS2, even though parts of the same formula was in there. If anything, id Software ripped off SS2 with Doom 3's use of recordings to tell a story.

Second, the whole thing about "your actions being defining moments" was probably some marketing guy gone off the deep end about the whole little sisters choices. Hell, Molynouexcrazyfuckingfrenchname said that you could plant a tree in Fable and it would grow with you, a statement which he had to retract because he was fucking crazy. Or the back of Path of Neo advertises that there's an alternate ending, even though it was explained IN THE GAME (by the brothers) that the reason for the ending was purely a matter of the video game format.

Third, like SS2, the recorder tapes make the plot. They are full of character development. You hear details of things that only full make sense after you progress through the game. A second playthrough of the game is recommended to flesh out the details of some of those tapes. I also like how you can discover how some people died from getting their recorder off their own body. It's creepy. (No spoilers; some people haven't finished it yet.) There's a good FAQ with all of the story put together, which helps out, too.

Fourth, the Ayn Rand dogma of Andrew Ryan really shine through, as he struggles to keep his utopia straight by sheer force of will, and his faith in capitalism (or The Great Chain, as he calls it). The end result is clearly visible from the first few minutes of the game, but you find out all of the details of other factors in play, and how exactly it ended up this bad.

deadspace was more like system shock 2 than bioshock was. Maybe you should play it to see what I mean.

SineSwiper wrote: I completely disagree.

First, System Shock 2 was made by the same team, so if they are going to rip off some of the feel of the game from another game, one of their own is usually expected, especially of the game is going to be called BioSHOCK. ("No fair! SMB2 ripped off of SMB1!") I think the plot was a lot different from SS2, even though parts of the same formula was in there. If anything, id Software ripped off SS2 with Doom 3's use of recordings to tell a story.

Second, the whole thing about "your actions being defining moments" was probably some marketing guy gone off the deep end about the whole little sisters choices. Hell, Molynouexcrazyfuckingfrenchname said that you could plant a tree in Fable and it would grow with you, a statement which he had to retract because he was fucking crazy. Or the back of Path of Neo advertises that there's an alternate ending, even though it was explained IN THE GAME (by the brothers) that the reason for the ending was purely a matter of the video game format.

Third, like SS2, the recorder tapes make the plot. They are full of character development. You hear details of things that only full make sense after you progress through the game. A second playthrough of the game is recommended to flesh out the details of some of those tapes. I also like how you can discover how some people died from getting their recorder off their own body. It's creepy. (No spoilers; some people haven't finished it yet.) There's a good FAQ with all of the story put together, which helps out, too.

Fourth, the Ayn Rand dogma of Andrew Ryan really shine through, as he struggles to keep his utopia straight by sheer force of will, and his faith in capitalism (or The Great Chain, as he calls it). The end result is clearly visible from the first few minutes of the game, but you find out all of the details of other factors in play, and how exactly it ended up this bad.

Just because it was their own game doesn't make ripping off System Shock any less poor. So, instead of being unoriginal, they're just not very creative? Woo.

Doom 3 ripping off SS2 by use of recordings? Jesus, then I guess every Survival Horror game with collectable files has been ripping off Alone in the Dark for years (and yes, I know people claim that, and those people are idiots). A gameplay mechanic isn't copyright material. Sure, it may have been lifted or inspired by SS2, but that doesn't make it a rip off.

Thirdly, the recordings themselves, while interesting, don't REALLY give me the idea of a utopian society. They definitely add to the horror and whatnot, but none of them--not a single one--outside of, like, three with safe combinations or door codes--are actually relevant to YOU, the main character. Yeah, you learn about your origins and all that jazz, and that's kinda cool, but it's rather ambiguous and since a great number of important recordings are off the beaten path, and you'd have no idea they were there unless you actively went exploring--and, let me stress that, what with a need to conserve ammo instilled early on, and the total linearity of your route through Rapture making exploration utterly unneccessary and practically discouraged--those are likely just going to be ignored.

Finally, the game itself doesn't really offer as much as SS2 did. There's no real character growth. It's a first person shooter with a few Fallout-inspired cartoons, magical powers, and other nonsense. The RPG is an illusion, and the ending is UTTERLY contrived. You're either a lovable old hippie or an evil dick with nukes. They are tacked on, arbitrary, and unneccessary, as the means to obtaining those endings are extremely contrived. It all hinges on whether you kill or save Little Sisters--but, after the first three Little Sisters, there actually becomes no real incentive to actually kill them. Somebody did the math, and the gains (counting the bonuses you get for saving them) exceed the losses from saving them.

The game has tons of good ideas that just weren't properly realized. The story is fine, self-sufficient and nicely wrapped up in the end. I can't imagine what a sequel (Or prequel) could possibly offer--let alone SIX.

RentCavalier wrote:

SineSwiper wrote: I completely disagree.

First, System Shock 2 was made by the same team, so if they are going to rip off some of the feel of the game from another game, one of their own is usually expected, especially of the game is going to be called BioSHOCK. ("No fair! SMB2 ripped off of SMB1!") I think the plot was a lot different from SS2, even though parts of the same formula was in there. If anything, id Software ripped off SS2 with Doom 3's use of recordings to tell a story.

Second, the whole thing about "your actions being defining moments" was probably some marketing guy gone off the deep end about the whole little sisters choices. Hell, Molynouexcrazyfuckingfrenchname said that you could plant a tree in Fable and it would grow with you, a statement which he had to retract because he was fucking crazy. Or the back of Path of Neo advertises that there's an alternate ending, even though it was explained IN THE GAME (by the brothers) that the reason for the ending was purely a matter of the video game format.

Third, like SS2, the recorder tapes make the plot. They are full of character development. You hear details of things that only full make sense after you progress through the game. A second playthrough of the game is recommended to flesh out the details of some of those tapes. I also like how you can discover how some people died from getting their recorder off their own body. It's creepy. (No spoilers; some people haven't finished it yet.) There's a good FAQ with all of the story put together, which helps out, too.

Fourth, the Ayn Rand dogma of Andrew Ryan really shine through, as he struggles to keep his utopia straight by sheer force of will, and his faith in capitalism (or The Great Chain, as he calls it). The end result is clearly visible from the first few minutes of the game, but you find out all of the details of other factors in play, and how exactly it ended up this bad.

Just because it was their own game doesn't make ripping off System Shock any less poor. So, instead of being unoriginal, they're just not very creative? Woo.

Doom 3 ripping off SS2 by use of recordings? Jesus, then I guess every Survival Horror game with collectable files has been ripping off Alone in the Dark for years (and yes, I know people claim that, and those people are idiots). A gameplay mechanic isn't copyright material. Sure, it may have been lifted or inspired by SS2, but that doesn't make it a rip off.

Thirdly, the recordings themselves, while interesting, don't REALLY give me the idea of a utopian society. They definitely add to the horror and whatnot, but none of them--not a single one--outside of, like, three with safe combinations or door codes--are actually relevant to YOU, the main character. Yeah, you learn about your origins and all that jazz, and that's kinda cool, but it's rather ambiguous and since a great number of important recordings are off the beaten path, and you'd have no idea they were there unless you actively went exploring--and, let me stress that, what with a need to conserve ammo instilled early on, and the total linearity of your route through Rapture making exploration utterly unneccessary and practically discouraged--those are likely just going to be ignored.

Finally, the game itself doesn't really offer as much as SS2 did. There's no real character growth. It's a first person shooter with a few Fallout-inspired cartoons, magical powers, and other nonsense. The RPG is an illusion, and the ending is UTTERLY contrived. You're either a lovable old hippie or an evil dick with nukes. They are tacked on, arbitrary, and unneccessary, as the means to obtaining those endings are extremely contrived. It all hinges on whether you kill or save Little Sisters--but, after the first three Little Sisters, there actually becomes no real incentive to actually kill them. Somebody did the math, and the gains (counting the bonuses you get for saving them) exceed the losses from saving them.

The game has tons of good ideas that just weren't properly realized. The story is fine, self-sufficient and nicely wrapped up in the end. I can't imagine what a sequel (Or prequel) could possibly offer--let alone SIX.

The plasmids made it an RPG. Your character physically grew stronger as the game progressed. I didn't have the ability to shoot bees out of my hands at the start of the game.

*SUPER BIG SPOILERS TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT PLAYED*

The game should have ended with the main character dieing as he learned that Atlas was Fontaine and Ryan was killed by kind of himself, but kind of you. After this, the game really diverged from the System Shock 2 story structure. When you realize that the woman you thought you were following was actually SHODAN, you were still following its orders, where in Bioshock you were under a new puppet master's bidding until the end. Your fight against the many and SHODAN differs greatly to the Bioshock ending of fighting the super Fontaine and then having your good or evil choice decide the ending. I'm sure you can construe one as better and the other as worse, but the thing is that the games are very similar up until the results of the twist work themselves out. In one you are a rejected puppet and must side with a new master, where in the other you stay with the original master out of necessity, only to eventually turn on it. The "ghosts", the journals, the two different fighting styles (plasmids v. psychic powers, and the gunplay/wrenchplay), the constantly leading overseer that turns out to be evil, and the hacking/engineering was all extremely similar. It is pretty much the same game with slightly different writing and more mainstream friendly mechanics.

Rent, Bioshock was more like a refinement of SS2 than a ripoff. Particularly if it's your own game you're refining

Everybody has called Bioshock a spiritual successor to System Shock 2. I still can't believe I can't get through to you the fact that both games are called SHOCK, and thus, that's gives them the god-given right to adopt a similar formula.

Megaman rips off itself. Final Fantasy has the same formula for every game. (You fight a god. or God, and win!) Ninja Gaiden 1 is similar to NG2. All of the God of War games are the same. Why bitch about Bioshock/SS2, when they at least try to tell a different (and original) story?

Rent is the anti-Seeker. Seeker loves everything popular and Rent hates everything popular!

Plasmids do NOT make it an RPG you dunce. An RPG requires one to have a steady growth of abilities.

The fact that you can upgrade guns is the ONLY RPG aspect in the game. Picking up plasmids is just like picking up another gun--you shoot it, it uses a type of ammo, etc. It is NOT character development.

Breaking down further, RPGs generally require some degree of character "statistics" that can be tweaked by doing certain tasks. Zelda has aspects that might be RPG-like--a set character who is upgraded by acquiring items--but it is NOT an RPG.

Fallout 3 is an RPG. It has stat growth, skill-development, all of that jazz.

Bioshock is NOT an RPG. It is a first person shooter PRETENDING to be an RPG.

RentCavalier wrote:Plasmids do NOT make it an RPG you dunce. An RPG requires one to have a steady growth of abilities.

The fact that you can upgrade guns is the ONLY RPG aspect in the game. Picking up plasmids is just like picking up another gun--you shoot it, it uses a type of ammo, etc. It is NOT character development.

Breaking down further, RPGs generally require some degree of character "statistics" that can be tweaked by doing certain tasks. Zelda has aspects that might be RPG-like--a set character who is upgraded by acquiring items--but it is NOT an RPG.

Fallout 3 is an RPG. It has stat growth, skill-development, all of that jazz.

Bioshock is NOT an RPG. It is a first person shooter PRETENDING to be an RPG.

but what about how with the adam you level up your plasmids, or different attributes of your character? Stealth, speed, strength, and your maximum health (constitution) or magic (wisdom or intelligence) can all be raised by spending adam. I agree that it's not much of an RPG, but you can certainly "level up" your character. Did we play the same game?

RentCavalier wrote:Plasmids do NOT make it an RPG you dunce.

You know, Rent, you're not at all obligated to be a completely insufferable prick.

Bioshock is an FPS with RPG elements, not an RPG