The Shrine

This is the impression I've been getting for the past few years now. I used to love playing games like Final Fantasy 3, but I just can't find that magic much anymore.

I stopped playing Tales of Vesperia, because I just got bored with the story (and the combat to some extent). Same goes for Grandia, and Eternal Sonata. It's that same generic fantasy crap that they have been shoving down our throats for generations, now.

Yes, there are exceptions, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. I love Xenosaga, but it's really not one of those JRPGs that follow the fantasy model. Even Final Fantasies like 7, 8, or 10 are completely different takes on fantasy. (Though, they disappoint with others like 9, 11, 12.) The American RPGs like Bioshock, again, completely different story than the generic fantasy bullshit. RPGs like Shadow Hearts and Digital Devil Saga, while I admit I didn't finish, are still good takes on the how to produce a RPG.

And then we have Dragon Quest. It's like the King of Generic Fantasy JRPG Bullshit. It's the Ronald Reagan of the JRPGs, the god that all other JRPG developers worship and strive to become.

But, why? Why put out this crap? Why disappoint me every time I pick up your game, play for 5-10 hours, and then put it down? I'm afraid to touch RPGs like The Last Remnant or Lost Odyssey for similar reasons. I'll admit that I generally dislike fantasy, and generally like sci-fi, but I will continue playing a fantasy game with a good story.

Well sir, while I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

There's no question that JRPGs are stuck in a complete rut. It's like most are phoning it in and have been this entire generation and a lot of the last one. There's very little innovation anymore and they certainly feel a lot of the "same old, same old", even the great RPGs (and Zelda too, as good as Twilight was it felt like a supped-up Ocarina). Even the DSs wonderful library of JRPGs is basically like a supped-up SNES.

Much like 2D platforming, what we're getting now is great versions of what we've seen before as opposed to exciting new innovative games that push the genre. Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing and there are some solid, solid titles that many people have enjoyed tremendously (Dragon Quest 8 is a solid example). Do people complain about the DS's RPG library, which is exclusively JRPGs? No way, it fucking rules. There's an incredible amount of very solid titles on that system. So we're still getting great, great RPGs from the country, no doubt.

Also, we still have Atlus releasing a good 12-20 games a year. Their titles may not always be 8s or 9s, but they're rarely less than 7s and always are a little funky or different, enough not to feel like the "same old". Some are (like Legacy of Ys) but those remakes or straight-up RPGs are very much the exception to the rule when it comes to their release slate. And we get a decent number of Shin Megami games from them in a year, too. Those titles have a very different feel to them and are pretty solid titles as well. We've also got NIS America, makers of Disgaea and the Atelier/Ar Tonelico/Mana Khemia series of games, giving us some very Atlus-like releases as well.

But there still is places where they can expand on the genre, no doubt. Bioware and other American companies have proven that. The Japanese just ain't payin' attention. All related to the whole internal focus and xenophobia issue within that culture we discussed before. As previously mentioned, a few of the big developers have recognized it and we're starting to see a very slow build-up of change over there.

I think the issue with picking it up and putting it down after 5-10 hours is more of a change in lifestyle issue than anything else. I've found over the last 5 years or so that I need games that I can pick up and play for 20 minutes at a time. RPGs you can't do that, you have to sit there for a while. So even when I enjoy an RPG very much - like Mass Effect - I tend not to finish them because of the committment involved, particularly now that I"m a father. I think that may be why the only RPG I've finished in the last few years has been Mario & Luigi Partners in Time.

Well, I finished Mass Effect, because I really enjoyed it.

And about your comment about "great versions of what we've seen before". These are RPGs. I'm cool with playing the many different Castlevania games because the gameplay is good. With RPGs, the story is critical, and yet it's treated like a stand-in component with a lot of these games. DQ8 is not a solid example. It's an example of what is wrong with the industry.

SineSwiper wrote:DQ8 is not a solid example. It's an example of what is wrong with the industry.

Again, that's just a difference in opinion. The same way nearly everyone here rolls their eyes when I say Green Day epitomizes what's wrong with music today. But to many, many people (it sold about 600k copies in North America) it was an excellent version of a genre they loved to play back in the day. What the hell is wrong with that?

All a good, old-school JRPG needs is a solid story and a good battle system. You think they may be stand-in but there are some stories that people like quite a bit. Having a little bit of a different twist to the battle system helps (like the Shin Megami games) but ain't absolutely required.

Sine, did you play DQ8?

Kupek wrote:Sine, did you play DQ8?

Kupek, I'm not playing this game here. No, I haven't played DQ8, because I've already played it several times with some of its other sequels. Unless somebody tells me it's a completely different story from the other DQs (which it isn't), I'm going to assume it's the same type of story.

I do not have time to play every single game just to fit your "qualifications" of whether I can comment on it or not. I don't need to play Megaman 9 to figure out what the gameplay mechanics are going to be. Why? Because I've played Megaman games before and I can REEEEAD.

SineSwiper wrote:

Kupek wrote:Sine, did you play DQ8?

Kupek, I'm not playing this game here. No, I haven't played DQ8, because I've already played it several times with some of its other sequels. Unless somebody tells me it's a completely different story from the other DQs (which it isn't), I'm going to assume it's the same type of story.

I do not have time to play every single game just to fit your "qualifications" of whether I can comment on it or not.

ok....you my friend.....are a fucking idiot.

actually wait....I don't want to insult fucking idiots.

You sir.....are just above my current employer

Chris wrote:ok....you my friend.....are a fucking idiot.

actually wait....I don't want to insult fucking idiots.

You sir.....are just above my current employer

Why? Because I can infer the quality of a product based on other people's comments and surface level examination? You, sir, do it on a regular basis. Everybody does.

Was Battlefield Earth a shitty movie? Did you actually need to spend two hours of your time to know that it's a shitty movie? NO, of course not! Why do that to yourself? Giving absolutely everything a "benefit of a doubt", despite evidence otherwise, is complete insanity. Uwe Boll is universally known as a shitty director, so obviously everybody is going to assume the movie sucks unless told otherwise.

Jesus fucking Christ. Let's at least get back on topic for once. I'm sick and fucking tired of defending my thought processes.

Play persona 3 and persona 4. They are the only worthwhile JRPGs to have come out in a while.

Not to mention Shin Megami Tensei Devil Survivor, and the new one comming out in a few months I hope, Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey.

I'm too lazy to read beyond the first few lines of this thread....but you had me at the title anyway.

PS - DQ8 was the height of generic JRPG turds. It was polished really nice, but it was still a turd.

The real question is: is it a turd because it's not good or because you're sick of it?

kali o. wrote:PS - DQ8 was the height of generic JRPG turds. It was polished really nice, but it was still a turd.

But, did you play DQ8?

Sine coming up with another ignorant hate post, shocking! This time about something Japanese, more shocking!

Julius Seeker wrote:Sine coming up with another ignorant hate post, shocking! This time about something Japanese, more shocking!

Can you do the numbers thing please and save us all some time.

As the gaming industry matures it seems like a lot of stuff in Japan is stuck in arachiac ways that once had a meaning (usually due to technical limitation) but is no longer relevent. For example most JRPGs still do not allow you to save anywhere (outside of combat). Why? What exactly is gained by removing the ability to save anywhere?

A lot of time I got the feeling in a Japanese game something is done because that's the way things has always been since 20 years ago.

SineSwiper wrote:Why? Because I can infer the quality of a product based on other people's comments and surface level examination? You, sir, do it on a regular basis. Everybody does.

But you then confuse that with an actual judgment based on experience. And if that's not the case, then you do a poor job explaining your thoughts.

SineSwiper wrote:But, did you play DQ8?

Yes...but so did you, if you've played any other DQ game (just pretend it had cell shaded/cartoony graphics and you are 99% there).

At the core the combat system of a JRPG, which is where you spent about 80% of your time playing the game, sucks. Now the American based RPG isn't necessarily any better, but Japanese seem to have a hard time believing that someone can find their system sucks. So not only is the combat system bad but you got absolutely no way to go around it. FF8, FF10, and Chrono Cross are the only games I can think of where you've a reasonable shot at avoid having to particpate in the system, and ironically those had the better combat systems compared to most JRPGs. Now most of the time you got to beat it once to figure out where you can skip the stuff but at least there's an option.

In FF10 I ran away on 100% of the fight while inside Sin because it's a total waste of time (most of these guys are as hard as final boss). You can't do that for the entire game because you'd not be sufficiently powerful (without using silly tricks) but you can at least do it some of the time. FF8/CC you can basically fight nothing the whole game and still complete it.

DQ plays like a grinder and it seems to be implicitly assumed that you'll love their battle system, as the prospect of avoiding random encounters does not appear even possible and even if it was, the series prides itself in having exactly enough encounters to get you through the game at a sufficient level, which implies if you ran away from stuff you would never be high enough for the bosses.

The typical Japanese RPG revolves around a few key points:
1. Total lack of blood to make sure it's rated E for Everyone.


2. LOTS and LOTS of grinding



3. Art direction that looks like a bunch of fairies shat out some rainbows.




4. Generic characters. Period. Bland, boring, generic, shitty characters. With shitty dialog.


5. For some reason they seem to be obsessed with 10-year-old girls, probably to appeal to their target hardcore gamer l337s who have an obsession with pedophilia.


Not saying these are necessarily bad things, lots of people like these sorts of games. It is a matter of taste.

Eric wrote:Well sir, while I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire? Balzac?

Also, Sine, this thread is spectacular. And here I thought *I* was an angry man. Show us how it's done. I personally think you're nuts for not appreciating "Spoony Bard" like the rest of us, but I agree with Eric.

Also, if I recall, Yuffie is supposed to be 16 or thereabouts, and Japanese 16-year-old girls do actually have bodies like that. Japanese girls are beautiful, but they don't have the most voluptuous bodies, in general. I find your insistence that Yuffie somehow represents a pedophiliac tendency in games to be projecting, maybe? I had the hots for half of Final Fantasy 7's female cast, but I was like 17 and not considering it particularly bizarre at the time (besides the idea of lusting after imaginary characters being somewhat inherently bizarre, but that's beside the point).

Let's get back to primary sources with some of Nomura's early work in the original style, hey?



In what way does this look particularly pedophiliac to you? Also, why do you assume Yuffie was intended as a sex object (as opposed to, say, Tifa)?

For the love of God, Tifa's breasts were about the only things in Advent Children that actually had realistic gravity physics. I don't think that was an accidental choice on the part of the CG artists and design team. Was Yuffie even in that?

I think Yuffie showed up in that scene where they're doing some air combo between 5 different guys.

I think RPGs in general stopped being interesting or revolutionary to me after the SNES Era.

I still think Final Fantasy 4, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, and Mario RPG are the pinnacle for me.... everything since those has been garbage I've barely wanted to play.

Games like Bioshock, Borderlands, and other western developed games seem to be on the right path to innovating the RPG genre.

And as far as Final Fantasy 13... I heard when they wanted to make Lightning they based her as a female Cloud Strife...

RECYCLE MORE!

Make some original characters instead of these pussy emo fags

Anarky wrote:pussy emo fags

There you have it, the core of all WRPG fans love for this violent, bloody, colourless, steroid pumped, dark and anti-social powerman genre. Homophobia.


But wait! Weren't you the one who played Ultimate Frisbee? =P

Julius Seeker wrote:

Anarky wrote:pussy emo fags

There you have it, the core of all WRPG fans love for this violent, bloody, colourless, steroid pumped, dark and anti-social powerman genre. Homophobia.


But wait! Weren't you the one who played Ultimate Frisbee? =P

Ultimate Frisbee and Dodgeball

I just think since the PS1 almost every JRPG protagonist has been a whiney bitch. And I don't use Fag as a homophobic term. (a recent South Park explains this)

Mental wrote:Also, Sine, this thread is spectacular. And here I thought *I* was an angry man. Show us how it's done. I personally think you're nuts for not appreciating "Spoony Bard" like the rest of us, but I agree with Eric. :D

Also, if I recall, Yuffie is supposed to be 16 or thereabouts, and Japanese 16-year-old girls do actually have bodies like that. Japanese girls are beautiful, but they don't have the most voluptuous bodies, in general. I find your insistence that Yuffie somehow represents a pedophiliac tendency in games to be projecting, maybe?

I was mostly making fun of his WRPG reply of similar note. I split off that thread here: viewtopic.php?t=14727

Mental wrote:I had the hots for half of Final Fantasy 7's female cast, but I was like 17 and not considering it particularly bizarre at the time (besides the idea of lusting after imaginary characters being somewhat inherently bizarre, but that's beside the point).

Seriously? FF7 has about the shittiest 3D graphics of any game. The FMV and summons were kinda cool, but the actual gameplay graphics had maybe a handful of polygons per character.

Anarky wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote:

Anarky wrote:pussy emo fags

There you have it, the core of all WRPG fans love for this violent, bloody, colourless, steroid pumped, dark and anti-social powerman genre. Homophobia.


But wait! Weren't you the one who played Ultimate Frisbee? =P

Ultimate Frisbee and Dodgeball

I just think since the PS1 almost every JRPG protagonist has been a whiney bitch. And I don't use Fag as a homophobic term. (a recent South Park explains this)

Well, it depends; Cloud (and to a large extent Tidus and Seifer) were whiny characters. Squall is more cold hearted, and Zidane is more care free. Then if you go to characters like Fei who were very well balanced; except for some hidden psychological issues. Then you have characters like Wakka who would kick your ass at Dodgeball.

Julius Seeker wrote:

Anarky wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote: There you have it, the core of all WRPG fans love for this violent, bloody, colourless, steroid pumped, dark and anti-social powerman genre. Homophobia.


But wait! Weren't you the one who played Ultimate Frisbee? =P

Ultimate Frisbee and Dodgeball

I just think since the PS1 almost every JRPG protagonist has been a whiney bitch. And I don't use Fag as a homophobic term. (a recent South Park explains this)

Well, it depends; Cloud (and to a large extent Tidus and Seifer) were whiny characters. Squall is more cold hearted, and Zidane is more care free. Then if you go to characters like Fei who were very well balanced; except for some hidden psychological issues. Then you have characters like Wakka who would kick your ass at Dodgeball.

Do you think a silent Protagonist like Chrono would work in this day and age?

Anarky wrote:Do you think a silent Protagonist like Chrono would work in this day and age?

I found the silent protagonist annoying in the old day and age.

Secret of Mana/Chrono Trigger/Wild Arms(Ruby does speak 3 times in his defense), all kinda irritated me with the no talking protagonist.

I never really considered Cloud's persona the generic emo type because any issues he had were actually deeply psychological from a traumatic experience with Sephiroth/Tifa/Zack, and later Aeris' death so at least all of his feelings and way he handled himself came from somewhere, this is a far cry from say Emo Parker in Spider-man 3 with black hair covering one eye and being mad at the world for no reason.

Squall was just a cold bastard for the sake of being a cold bastard, it's never really explained why he is the way he is, even when they touch on the orphanage and all of the cast's past. Zidane was your typical japanese manga/anime protagonist and always optimistic, somewhat idiotic right down to pulling Super Saiyan powers out of his ass in a pinch.

Tidus had daddy issues, nuff said, we should be happy he was playing that weird water sport and not a male stripper.

Cloud was sort of the first of the 'protagonist with a troubled past', but unlike most, he actually has some serious problems in the past, not like someone stole his candy when he was little like Squall. And for the most part I thought the way he handled his past was reasonable, and for the most part the story didn't go the usual stuff of like 'yeah he's got a problem that's why we're supposed to sympatheize with him'. If you like his background story, great. If not, the game doesn't attempt to impose any kind of judgment.

Don wrote:not like someone stole his candy when he was little like Squall.

You mean his family? =P

I could never stand Squall. Playing through Dissidia is reminding me of how annoying he was. He's such a moody girl. hahaha

Lox wrote:I could never stand Squall. Playing through Dissidia is reminding me of how annoying he was. He's such a moody girl. hahaha

Yeah, but he kicks ass in that game, haha. Im doing his story mode now and cleaning house. Thats only compared to Cloud and Cecil, though, i have a long ways to go.

After reading all the thoughts about characters, i keep asking myself why its so hard to have a good main character in an RPG. If Sephiroth is considered the most well liked villain, then who can you say the same for as the hero? Cloud is the best we have? Thats pathetic. While storylines are much better in RPG's than they used to be (starting around the SNES time era), why do characters still suck? While playing through Dissidia on the PSP i'm realizing how alike all the good guys are, too.

I agree with Anarky that the SNES was my golden age of RPGs and everything after that have been uninteresting. I have a lot of half finished RPGs and a shorter list of finished ones. I hung out over the holidays with an old high school friend and we too were having a hard time putting our fingers on why we cant game like we used to.

Yeah, he's awesome. I did his story twice so far. Right now, he suffers from having any good long range attacks, but I don't think I've unlocked them yet is all.

I'm going through Terra's story now. She's pretty powerful if you learn how to use her.

The best good guys are the ones that aren't exactly good, ie: closer to neutral.

Cloud started the whole 'troubled hero' thing and people started copying that. Problem is that most just aren't very good at it. I mean if you want to be safe you can have someone like Maxim in Lufia, who is just a general all around good guy. It's not the most interesting character in the world but it's at least very safe.

Don wrote:Cloud started the whole 'troubled hero' thing and people started copying that. Problem is that most just aren't very good at it. I mean if you want to be safe you can have someone like Maxim in Lufia, who is just a general all around good guy. It's not the most interesting character in the world but it's at least very safe.

You mean Squaresoft started copying themselves... and it got worse and worse. Its kind of like imbreeding

Anarky wrote:

Don wrote:Cloud started the whole 'troubled hero' thing and people started copying that. Problem is that most just aren't very good at it. I mean if you want to be safe you can have someone like Maxim in Lufia, who is just a general all around good guy. It's not the most interesting character in the world but it's at least very safe.

You mean Squaresoft started copying themselves... and it got worse and worse. Its kind of like imbreeding

Other games copied the same concept too. Cloud should be like a starting point for a 'troubled hero' as opposed to a good 'troubled hero' and it is almost like you said, it gets worse because they combine bad stuff with each other and it just gets really whiny.