The Shrine

I put down everything else to replay this game for the ~30th time
I've just bought a number of new games, Suikoden 3, Breath of Fire 4, and LA Noire among them. If you read the title, then you've probably already guessed which game made me put them all down.

It stands the test of time
The original Chrono Trigger still stands up very strongly today. Oddly enough, I didn't get the exact same sort of satisfaction from the DS version of the game as I do playing the original SNES one; uninterrupted by any extra videos or extra scenarios, no special weapons and armour to throw the game balance off in the favour of the player.... This is the same Chrono Trigger that I first played more than 15 years ago.; purity and perfection.

It had, perhaps, the greatest development team ever
I have played the DS version a lot since its release, probably in the area of 70-80 hours; yet at the same time it feels like it has been a half a decade or more since I have played this game. It probably has to do with how the music sounds through real speakers, or how Magus is called "Magus" and not "Fiendlord". Don't get me wrong, the DS version did add some things that were good, but a lot of what was added took away from its perfection solely because there was a lot that I doubt writer Yuji Hori and designer Hironobu Sakaguchi would have kept in the game had this been the original design. I think the original Chrono Trigger will be a game that is never repeated; and no remake of the game will ever do it the same justice. It was perfect as it was, Hori was coming off of Dragon Quest 5 and 6, the two best games in the series, and Sakaguchi and Kitase (Director/Producer) were coming off of Final Fantasy 6 and just before FF7. The core team was at or near the absolute height of their creativity. Add in newcomer Composer Yasonori Mitsuda, who would go down as one of the greats in the videogame industry; and Dragon Quest artist Akira Toriyama - and there is the most powerful team that has ever been assembled to develop an RPG. This team and this time will never be duplicated.

I love the flawless design, a level that escapes most RPGs since, and even the very remakes of the game
So I am now in the portions before entering Magus's castle. One thing that I found interesting about the design of the game are things like the codeword "Zabie". In the year 2300 BC is probably the worst part of the game; The Factory. Essentially the team approaches an area where they must activate a generator in order to open a door which is otherwise solid steel and cannot be blasted through. The door leads to a gateway out of the miserable future. The unfortunate thing is that the user must enter into the factory which I recall being somewhere in the area of more than an hour to complete on a fresh game. Unlike most of the rest of the game, this area is not very pretty, it has nothing particularly interesting.... It's a factory. The player goes through all of this just to get a password "XABY". I believe the design team realized this was a weaker sequence in the game and made it optional for second-time players who could otherwise just take a left, enter the lab, enter the XABY password, and be done the area in 10 minutes. In otherwords, the design doesn't actually require the user to go through the factory. It would be the same as the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time having a very simple road to pass if the user already knew some secret about it that would be key in completing it.

Chrono Trigger is, hands down, one of the greatest games of all time
It's not a wonder that sites like IGN list this as one of only three games on the console to receive a perfect 10, the other two being the VC release of Ocarina of Time, and Super Mario Galaxy 2. If you have a Super Nintendo or a Wii, then do yourself a favour and pick up and play this game again; THIS one, not any of the remakes, especially not the butchered PSX release which has ruined the experience for many players.

As far as I am concerned, Chrono Trigger best represents the height of the SNES era. Everyone should play it, or play it again; it is not only one of the best games today to be introduced to, but also perhaps the very best in terms of replay value, in the RPG genre, on top of all of that.

Just cause.

Eric wrote:

Just cause.

Too bad they were forced to discontinue it

In the DS game, you can turn the anime cutscenes off, which I do. The game was designed for the story to be told in-game, and the cutscenes are both redundant and a jarring contrast to the rest of the game.

Yeah, I agree. They weren't great and the DS version was my first playthrough of the game.

I think Chrono Trigger is one of the most complete game in the sense that once you finish it once you have seen everything the game has to see. New Game + and the extra endings might as well just be extra cutscenes and don't factor much into replayability, though some endings are surprisingly detailed. I've never felt the urge to play it again because the game doesn't really leave anything unanswered, nor is there anything more to discover about the game. I don't think replayability is a big issue, but it'd be nice if the extra endings are somehow tied to gameplay as opposed to just when you take your overpowered party to the portal to 1999 AD.

I actually like Terranigma slightly more than Chrono Trigger because it takes more than one playthrough to fully grasp the story. The first time around the game you're likely to miss a lot of the subtle elements. Actually I think Chrono Trigger is good because it is short. It's only around 10-15 hours of gameplay but none of it is wasted. At no point of the story do you get the feeling that you're just filling some quota of subquests. Everything you do is meaningful toward the grand scheme of things. There really isn't a lot to do in Chrono Trigger but what you can do is top notch stuff. It's also one of the last 'short' RPGs, as you just don't see RPGs that's beatable in 15 hours or so without glitching/exploiting from the PSX era. More games should be like it, but I guess today people will just complain spending $100 for 15 hours of gameplay is not worth it and would rather waste 60 hours on boring stuff to get their money's worth.

Don wrote:I New Game + and the extra endings might as well just be extra cutscenes and don't factor much into replayability, though some endings are surprisingly detailed. I've never felt the urge to play it again because the game doesn't really leave anything unanswered, nor is there anything more to discover about the game. I don't think replayability is a big issue, but it'd be nice if the extra endings are somehow tied to gameplay as opposed to just when you take your overpowered party to the portal to 1999 AD.

The extra endings are imaginative a fun "what ifs" that always make sense in the context of what just happened in the story, or what was about to happen but didn't because you beat Lavos "early." I found they added a lot because of that. They're also perfectly spaced; basically, every time a major plot-point happens, you'll get a different ending. (When in doubt, check to see if the short description at the save file changed.)

The problem is that since they're only accessible via New Game + there is no way it is at all a challenge by the time you see them, so they don't feel like they're part of the game. It's more like say filling out the battle arena in FFX (which is a reverse of this, by the time you can beat anything in there you can beat Sin with both hand behind your back) as opposed to actually doing anything that's related to the main story. And the thing is you can actually make progress on Lavos before you're supposed to beat him, and the game scales him on the must-lose battles to be even tougher (he's much harder than normal at Zeal Palace) so it could have scaled backwards earlier too. I guess since the game was running out of space as is they can't really have room for different encounters depending on what part of the story you're in but it's still a missed opportunity.

More thoughts on Chrono Trigger...

It is perhaps the definitive game of both the success and the failure of a FF-style combat system. Unlike most Square RPGs, Lavos is actually capable of beating an appropriate level party without resorting to attacks that drop your party to 1 HP or doing some attack that does more HP than you can possibly have. In his final form it basically works out that only the magic users (Marle/Lucca/Magus) can take his ultimate magic attack and only the fighters can take his ultimate physical attack. This means you'll almost certainly lose 1 or even 2 people when he does his ultimate move but someone will survive. Incidentally Magus is the character most likely to survive both kinds of attack without being ridiculously overleveled, so it makes giving him up a pretty important decision overall even if you're not aware of the choice early on. This is why even though Magus isn't a strong character at level **, getting him at the expense of the story (I think the story definitely leans toward Frog killing Magus) is a pretty important decision. However this also means you're likely to start using the shell/protect/haste to deal with Lavos's ultimate attacks and that trivializes the game and makes everything very boring.

It's also one of the few Square RPG where recovering HP is actually very difficult without using items. There is no one person who can heal the party to full in one spell, and I think there are only two combinations that can bring the party to full health at level ** (Aura Whirl won't get you enough). This means recovering from stuff like Hallation is very difficult so you got to respect Spekkio's Hallation -> Luminare combo even at level **. No it's not hard to deal with but you can't just mindlessly attack every turn and count on one person to outheal the enemy's damage output. When fighting Lavos, often you have the choice of getting one person up, or get everyone some health and hope he doesn't use a major attack again, or an attack your character is weak against. It's not anymore complicated than any other Square games, but it's one where you actually feel like there is some challenge to the game.

And for all the loose ends Chrono Trigger deals with, not resolving what happened to Schala Zeal is just downright bizarre. Maybe they ran out of time, money, or space on the cart. Consider even Queen Zeal had a resolution at the end it's just plain weird that one of the most important character in the story is basically forgotten at the ending (except Magus).

shrug

I enjoyed the game so much I had fun going through it again to see the extra endings. I agree they are a bonus, but it was one I was thankful for, instead of seeing it as waste opportunity.

I always thought that saving Magus was the more canonical option - he has a redemption arc once you know his full story. But perhaps I just liked him too much to not get him. The bonus ending where he goes and fights Lavos on his own is perhaps my favorite. And I thought it was a poignant touch that Janus' cat follow Magus around in the remains of 12,000 BC.

Regarding Schala, I heard they ran out of time.

I was also baffled that Square continued to use random battles after CT. I suppose it does significantly increase development complexity, but it's just so much less frustrating and so much more organic. That's one reason that I loved FF12.

You're surprised a Japanese company that makes JRPGs kept using random battles? Really?

Kupek wrote:shrug

I enjoyed the game so much I had fun going through it again to see the extra endings. I agree they are a bonus, but it was one I was thankful for, instead of seeing it as waste opportunity.

They're a great bonus. The game is loved so much, why wouldn't you want more of it? It's not like they shortened the game to add the extra endings to it or anything. I see absolutely zero negative in the extra endings. If anything, it was another excuse to play through the game again and see the extra 11 endings.

Oh no, not a reason to play one of the best games of all time again! The humanity!

• Well Don, if you would have played the game again and NOT killed Magus you would have seen that he does search for Schala at the end =P

• Chrono Trigger DS has an additional story sequence that deals with Schala, but I didn't find it in the spirit of the rest of the game. • Canonical Path: Whichever path taken, whether it is to kill Magus, or let him survive, is up to the player. There is no real canincal path, it is however the player choses to experience the ending of the game.

• Random Encounters: I think random encounters works for most games. I also don't think that non-random encounter systems are necessarily better unless approached in the way Earthbound and Dragon Quest 9 did them; in that they are not scripted battles - and the user can employ tactics to avoid monsters; and monsters will run from more powerful players. Earthbound has the best encounter system available (the game calculates the liklihood of a 1 round slaughter and auto-awards the player a victory if it is highly probable to certain).

Chrono Trigger uses a purely scripted system, in that encounters are all scripted to specific locations. and it is the exception - as all other scripted battle systems seem to be inferior to random battles. FF13's encounter system just feels like wave after wave of scripted battles, and did not seem entertaining in the way Chrono Trigger was. Mystic Quest was similar. Only Chrono Trigger really ever achieved excellence with scripted encounters.

There are some unique encounter systems I have come across which work well: there is the healthy mix that Pokemon Black and White uses; essentially it is random encounters in specific areas, otherwise enemy encounters are scripted, and then as the user progresses - randomly appear on the map. Another very interesting encounter system is Radiant Historia (coincidentally enough, a time travel RPG) where the user can attack enemies on the screen to stun them for turn-advantage in the encounter - Like DQ9, almost all encounters are avoidable except the boss battles.

Anyway, Chrono Trigger and FF games were designed differently, Chrono Trigger was made to be a much more visual and seemless experience. Final Fantasy games were designed to be bigger experiences, I think it would have been incredibly hard to employ a system like Chrono Trigger's effectively in FF7, 8, and 9.

• Battle system, I think the battle system is quite ingenious. The way, as Don mentioned, that users need to commit multiple characters to execute certain moves which have different effects... Also how the enemies and characters move around on the screen, and the user can execute certain attacks that strike in a line or an area to hit multiple enemies in that line or area; similar to Skies of Arcadia. Also with how certain enemies will have weak points, like the Club wielding Ogan's of Dandoro Mountain which are powerful.... Until Lucca hits them with flame toss and burns the clubs out of their hands. Also the boss enemies who have multiple locations to hit them, usually with one location being key to more easily defeating the boss as a whole.

Chrono Trigger is a very nice package of greatness, only the 16-bit graphics would betray it as a game released in 1995 to anyone who didn't know about it beforehand. If the rest of the game was described to them, they'd possibly think it was some great game that was seeing release for the first time this year in 2011. I think we knew back then that it would stand the test of time.

Of course I know Magus goes off to search Schala, but he pretty much never talks anything about her sister in the entire game except during the Chrono Trigger (click on Schala and he says "..." or something like that). Magus's ending is almost an afterthought, it's like 'oh yeah I should look for Schala now". He has more interaction with Queen Zeal than Schala Zeal. Also you can have Magus in your party while building Cryus's grave, which is seriously out of character, and part of the reason why I think he's not supposed to have survived. At any rate, in Chrono Trigger the decision to keep Magus or not doesn't feel like a Suikoden moment where it's like 'do you want this guy or kill him so you'll never get the real ending'. While you're certainly not penalized for keeping Magus alive, it feels like you're compromising on what you've fought for in exchange for him, and that Magus's role in the story is over and he should have died (especially since he never looks for Schala during the game anyway). I think this is a good thing where it feels like you lost something going with either choices instead of just your standard 'choose yes or no, but ask again if you choose no' decision in RPGs.

It's also not clear why the cast has anything to settle with Lavos. I guess you can say saving the world is enough reason, but it really doesn't feel like most of the characters have any motivation in saving the world other than 'because it's a good idea'. Robo and Magus are the only two characters who seem to be personally vested into battling for the future of humanity, and are the only two characters who seem convincing in coming up with the conclusion that Lavos is a manipulating evolution for its own purpose. If your party is say, Crono/Marle/Lucca, it really doesn't make sense how those 3 suddenly came up with the truth at the end.

Out of the extra endings I'd say the one where Frog fights Magus, and the one Magus goes after Lavos by himself are quite good. They should have shelved the other endings that are mostly just what-if afterthoughts and flesh out those two more. It's disappointing because it's not short enough to dismiss it as just extra fan service but certainly not comprehensive enough to cover what actually happened. I guess you can say that the Frog vs Magus ending is covered by credits (you can clearly hear them fighting in the background) but the Magus goes after Lavos one is not one where I think it is better off left to the imagination. There should clearly be some kind of resolution there. I suppose the biggest problem might be that space was a premium so there was no way to cram anything more into the game even if they wanted to, but I'd rather have a longer ending on the better ones and skip say the "Reptites rule the world" or "Girls talk about fashion" ending.

I agree that Schala was a dangling thread, and I think they wanted to handle it, but didn't have the time. Good points on Magus being there for Cyrus' grave, but Magus also has his own sidequest with going back to his castle. It always seemed to me like he was meant to be there.

I actually like Lavos as a villain because he's not evil. He's no more evil than a lion killing a gazelle. That's just how Lavos survives. I agree that it's a bit unbelievable that they stumble upon this realization on their own, but... suspension of disbelief. They only have so much time and space to convey information. If we're going to start playing that game, then there's bigger can-o-worms to open up, such as how cause-and-effect in time travel is treated in whichever way is convenient for the story.

Also, Seeker, very few battles in CT are scripted to locations. By this I mean that there are very few places in CT where if you walk on a certain tile, you trigger a battle. Rather, the enemies are placed in certain locations, and their movements follow simple algorithms. But it's often possible to avoid those battles. Anyway, what really frustrates me about random battles is before the battle happens, I was thinking about navigating the dungeon, and then BAM, that thinking is derailed, fight a battle, and then, wait, what was I thinking again? Oh, right, I need to get over there. That's just annoying.

At least the random battle doesn't take you to a separate screen. I really hate how when you're lost in a maze (less common in today's games), and you were going say west, and hit a random battle and then you forgot that you were going west, so you went east before you remembered that was a dead end, and then hit another random battle.

I think when I got to Lavos my party was Crono/Marle/Lucca and it took a lot of suspension of belief to see how those characters could possibly come to the conclusion that Lavos was manipulating evolution. It makes sense with Robo (he has sensors), and Magus can be explained with the 'ancient civilization that knows all', but the rest of the characters simply aren't qualified to make that observation. The problem with dialgoue in Chrono Trigger is that it's strictly based on the ordering of the party, so in the final confrontation against Lavos it's always like this (assuming Crono isn't one of your party member):

A: Guys I figured out Lavos has every living being's DNA and that means evolution is only a pawn for its scheme!
B: OH NO! This means all we have been doing is for naught!
C: No! We must prove we have a right to exist!

In Chrono Trigger A/B/C just corresponds to their position in party. Problem is out of the party only Robo and Magus are qualified to come up with the conculsion in A, and it's also fairly uncharacteristic for either of the character to say the dialogue in B. On the other hand the rest of the party fits the B & C dialogue, but not the A. Yet the dialogue in Chrono Trigger doesn't care about that. This may be because they already put as much stuff as they possibly can in a 4MB cart so there's no room left to think about whether it makes sense or not, but it's still a shortcoming in an otherwise great game.

Another example would be when you crash the Epoch into Lavos in 1999. I believe there's always one character who will lament the loss of Epoch. Problem is only Lucca is strongly attached to Epoch, and someone like Magus is never attached to such things, but again it only matters what their ordering in the party is.

Persona 3 and 4 also do non-random battles well. Justsayin.

bovine wrote:Persona 3 and 4 also do non-random battles well. Justsayin.

Excellent games, for JRPGs.

I like Lavos as a villain the same way that I liked Deus from Chrono Trigger as a villain. As Kupek said, these are creatures beyond good and evil, it just happens that when Lavos breeds and when Deus activates, something very terrible happens to humanity. I have little doubt that Takahashi's Deus was inspired by Lavos.

As for how the team knew what Lavos was doing, and why Lavos required to evolve humanity in a certain way... It's not well explained like it is in Xenogears (where, essentially, the Deus weapon required a biological body, and humans were created so that they would one day use their own flesh to become the components of this body); but playing Chrono trigger never really has me caring about such questions either...

Actually the game alluded to the fact that human evolution went way faster after being in contact with Lavos. It's not something obvious but it'd make sense someone with a lot of understanding of science or contact with Lavos can figure it out based on the final form. But some of the characters are literally like "I sense a disturbance in the Force and figured out Lavos was controlling evolution all along!"

Heh, the irony of it is that in Chrono Trigger's alternative world, it took 65 million years for Cro Magnon humanity to evolve to modern human beings.

Well one would assume that the Kingdom of Zeal was around for a while before Lavos hit the reset button. Zeal technology/magic > 2300AD I thought.

Eric wrote:Well one would assume that the Kingdom of Zeal was around for a while before Lavos hit the reset button. Zeal technology/magic > 2300AD I thought.

Which is why it makes sense Magus can figure it out along with Robo, but the rest of cast literally are talking about concepts that didn't even exist in their era (DNA and stuff).

I think only Robo mentions anything about DNA. Other characters say it in their own terms, but I am not 100% sure. I will see when I arrive at the end of the game. I'm currently in the middle of the Kingdom of Zeal arc.

Julius Seeker wrote:I think only Robo mentions anything about DNA. Other characters say it in their own terms, but I am not 100% sure. I will see when I arrive at the end of the game. I'm currently in the middle of the Kingdom of Zeal arc.

They basically all say Lavos is composed of all things living since the beginning of evolution. It's not clear to me how Marle, Ayla, or Frog can possibly come to this conclusion. Even Lucca doesn't seem like she'd have the scientific background even though she's the 'supergenius' character, as she always strike me more as the crazy scientist as opposed to someone with formal understanding of science. Now Magus isn't a scientist but he comes from your generic super advanced ancient civilization, plus he obviously has first hand experience with Lavos, so it's possible that he could've figured this out.

Lucca built a freaking teleportation machine. I think a little genetics is believable. But. That's not the point. Chrono Trigger's story and characters really can't survive this level of scrutiny. You just have to accept it because of the limitations of the medium at the time.

She also figured out how to fix Robo, her intelligence is up there. Marle is obviously a ditz princess, and well Crono is a mute.

Don I'm gonna need quotes of the err lesser characters, intelligence-wise figuring out what Lavos is. :p

If Layla says anything about DNA i would be floored.

'Lavos all things!' is probably how they changed it.

You can probably find them in the script from GameFAQs or something but everyone besides Crono will say something about how Lavos is consist of every living things that existed if they're at a certain position in the party. Instead of DNA the characters who shouldn't have such background will say it has the vitality or life force of creatures, though it is still equally improbable (why would anyone know what the sum total of life force of every creature feels like?).

When collecting Belthaasar's notes on the way to the Epoch in his lab, during the Kingdom of Zeal story arc; Belthasar explains the history of Lavos and how he shaped the world and is draining its lifeforce like a giant parasite. In the 2300 AD he reigns atop the Death Peak and continuously replicates himself.

Absorbing the world's energy doesn't really connect with controlling evolution. Is advanced civilization some kind of ultimate energy source that Lavos needs? In that case there would be no reason for the world to get past 10000 BC because Zeal is clearly the peak of human civilization, as their technology far surpresses what's available in the future even before they started using energy from Lavos. Yes it's said many times Lavos is influencing these events, but it's never obvious why he's doing it. There's a considerable leap of faith going from Lavos sucking the world's energy, to controlling evolution (which seems pointless since humanity clearly peaked at 10000 BC in the world of Chrono Trigger). The explanation is pretty improbable, and that in itself isn't bad, but compounded with the guy who makes this observation in your party is purely dependent on what spot he is in, you end up with a double dose of improbability. For example if you go with Crono/Marle/Lucca, and Marle is in the 'observation' slot it'd literally be your ditzy-ish princess suddenly had a revealation that Lavos is manipulating evolution. The final revelation's believeability literally depends on how your party is currently configured at the moment.

It's a consistent problem with Square line of games, where the you generally have a party so big that not all of the people involved necessarily have any vested interest or expertise or even releveance to the task at home. Eventually at around FFX Square finally figured out that just because you can only have 3 people at the party doesn't mean people who aren't in the party can't speak up when it's relevent, and conversely someone with no relevance to what's going on shouldn't have to say anything just because you picked him in the party, since in these games it's clearly assumed everyone in the party travels together. It's not really a serious issue, but in CT's case it's amplified because the revealation is not something that is at all obvious to the player, so the guy making that observation really does need to have the credentials to make that claim. Even Ayla can be the one observing "Lavos is consist of all living things" and that's just ridiculous.

Quoting yourself doesn't make it right, Kupek.

This issue was solved rather easily FFX by having all the party show up during a story segment. Your party might be Tidus/Kihmari/Wakka but if the story requires something related to Al Bhed/Technology, Rikku will show up to tell you about it. Is it really that impossible to put the sprites of your entire party in the final scene? I guess it'd be kind of weird if you see all 6-7 characters and have 3-4 of them disappear as the fight starts, but it can't be some kind of technical impossibilty to overcome (have Lavos do an energy blast that sends the guy you won't be using flying or something). And it's not scrunity because that'd imply the game didn't account for it. No the game does account for it, as two of the characters (Magus and Robo) are perfectly capable of coming up with the revelation, but the problem here is that like all pre FF10 Square games, the dialogue of the character is entirely dependent on their presence in the party and position in the party. Most of the time this is just an annoyance, but it's amplified perhaps by the fact that Chrono Trigger has no obvious blemish on its plot except that at least 3 out of the 6 character with dialogue cannot realistically come to the conclusion of the final plot twist. I fought Lavos with many different party combinations just to see their dialogue, and most combination of dialogue makes plenty of sense and is totally consistent with what each character should said. There are 3 positions in that final sequence that is solely determined by their position in the party:

A. The person who figures out Lavos is consist of all living things.
B. The person who despairs knowing all of history is just a pawn for Lavos.
C. The person who urges the party to defeat Lavos in the name of all that is good.

The problem is that since Crono doesn't speak, if he's in party someone has to do two roles, and if your party is Crono/Marle/Lucca (which is the closest thing to the de facto party), Marle is probably the worst person at coming up with A, even though she actually has very good dialogue for B or C. Note that someone like Robo or Magus can do all 3 roles (in the case of C Magus just says, "Your life ends here" without appealing to the power of humanity), so it's not like these dialogues are randomly made up in an ad lib fashion. The story clearly does think about what each of the 6 characters should say depending on which position they're in, but it cannot overcome for the fact that the A position should've been fixed on at most 3 (and really only 2) characters. Again this is a minor thing in all Square games, but it stands out here because there are no obvious problems with Chrono Trigger's story, and that the leap of faith for Marle/Frog/Ayla to come up with the knowledged needed at the A position is very far fetched.