The Shrine

I see this suggested from time to time in just about every gaming forum. "Retro is the successor of Rare".

This simply isn't the case. The truth is, Nintendo (aside from themselves) hasn't had any exclusive developer as powerful as Rare (I don't think anyone has). Here is what to keep in mind:

1. Rare was able to hold up Nintendo consoles on their own - this was made clear starting on the NES when they released games like Battletoads, Captain Skyhawk, RC Pro-Am and many others. Retro releases 2 games a generation.

2. Rare managed the highest selling game of an entire generation: Donkey Kong Country 2 sold 10 million - if you exclude Mario World and Allstars which were the two SNES pack-in games, that leaves DKC at #1. Retro hasn't even managed to score in the top 10 for the year more than once (DKCR whose main selling point is that it is a clone of a classic Rare game).

3. Rare was the major force in turning around an entire generation - until DKC was released, Genesis was trouncing the SNES, that all changed when Rare released a series of games that could stand even with the next generation. The change occurred when DKC was revealed.

4. Rare redefined genres multiple times: RC-Pro Am, Battletoads, Donkey Kong Country, and GE007 are clear examples. The rendering techniques used by Rare on DKC would actually become an Industry changing technique that is still occasionally used to this day. Retro made Turok 2 prettier and Metroid skinned.

I think if anything, Retro is the clear successor of Iguana Entertainment, they developed the original NBA Jam and Turok. The company was made up of people from Iguana for the purpose of making the next Turok - and that became Metroid Prime. Calling Retro a successor to Rare is severely understating the legacy of the now fallen development company.

I'm still shocked Rare didn't release Killer Instinct 3 when the Fighting Game market was on the resurgence, alas.

Eric wrote:I'm still shocked Rare didn't release Killer Instinct 3 when the Fighting Game market was on the resurgence, alas.

They were far too busy being Microshaft's guinea pigs with the camera (they tried a similar thing to Eye of Judgement that never panned out) and Kinect (I THINK they were responsible for some of the middleware tools Microshaft has). That's really all they are now, what's left of them anyways. All of the IPs they got when they bought them from Nintendo (basically everything but Donkey Kong) are all dead.

Rare's newer games are better than their old games...just the were practically the ONLY 3rd party dev for Nintendo consoles. Haven't we been through this before.

kali o. wrote:Rare's newer games are better than their old games...just the were practically the ONLY 3rd party dev for Nintendo consoles. Haven't we been through this before.

And you were wrong then too. I'll add that your comment is irrelevant to the topic too.

kali o. wrote:Haven't we been through this before.

Julius Seeker wrote:irrelevant to the topic too.

When have either of these things ever stopped us? :D

Julius Seeker wrote:
And you were wrong then too. I'll add that your comment is irrelevant to the topic too.

It's completely relevant. What you wrote makes it so...don't like that, don't write stupid shit to begin with. And given that the only thing that made Rare "special" is that it was pretty much the only quality Nintendo-only 3rd party developer (*cough* hence top selling*cough*), I'd say there is good reason people call Retro "Rares spirtitual successor". Add in that, like Rare, Retro was bought by Nintendo, continued work on Rare/Nintendo IPs, has a name that starts with an "r"...

kali o. wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote:
And you were wrong then too. I'll add that your comment is irrelevant to the topic too.

It's completely relevant. What you wrote makes it so...don't like that, don't write stupid shit to begin with. And given that the only thing that made Rare "special" is that it was pretty much the only quality Nintendo-only 3rd party developer (*cough* hence top selling*cough*), I'd say there is good reason people call Retro "Rares spirtitual successor". Add in that, like Rare, Retro was bought by Nintendo, continued work on Rare/Nintendo IPs, has a name that starts with an "r"...

Just a quick question: how many times after banging your head against the wall do you bleed? Get a concussion?

Zeus wrote:

kali o. wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote:
And you were wrong then too. I'll add that your comment is irrelevant to the topic too.

It's completely relevant. What you wrote makes it so...don't like that, don't write stupid shit to begin with. And given that the only thing that made Rare "special" is that it was pretty much the only quality Nintendo-only 3rd party developer (*cough* hence top selling*cough*), I'd say there is good reason people call Retro "Rares spirtitual successor". Add in that, like Rare, Retro was bought by Nintendo, continued work on Rare/Nintendo IPs, has a name that starts with an "r"...

Just a quick question: how many times after banging your head against the wall do you bleed? Get a concussion?

Zeus wrote: Just a quick question: how many times after banging your head against the wall do you bleed? Get a concussion?

Feat taken at level 1:

Iron Skull
Pre-reqs: Level 1, 10 years minimum Internet experience, no life
Description: Through years of training and experience, you've developed an almost supernatural ability to repeat the same self destructive conversations with little to no results. While this makes your participation & tolerance of useless conversation godlike, it has also left you with a permenant -1 to your Intelligence & Charisma attributes due to repeating the same thing over and over. Add +10 to any roll that checks to initiate a conversation with hostile NPCs but -5 to rolls for Diplomacy, Initimidate & Bluff checks.


----
Nerd reply. Actually, the nerdiest thing was I changed the -2 to -1, because -4 points to my attributes seemed like overkill...yes...that's fucking retarded that I cared.

kali o. wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote:
And you were wrong then too. I'll add that your comment is irrelevant to the topic too.

It's completely relevant. What you wrote makes it so...don't like that, don't write stupid shit to begin with.

So since you have descended into the childish insults game, as you typically do; I'll just tell you why your post was wrong.

kali o. wrote:Rare's newer games are better than their old games...just the were practically the ONLY 3rd party dev for Nintendo consoles. Haven't we been through this before.

"Rare's newer games are better than their old games"

In what regards do you mean? Sales? Review scores? Because you'd be wrong on both accounts. Rare has not achieved the same levels that they had beforehand. I also don't see Rare getting nominated for any game of the year rewards anymore. What sort of genre defining or industry defining breakthroughs has Rare achieved recently?

Is Rare better now than they were? The answer is an obvious no.


"just the were practically the ONLY 3rd party dev for Nintendo consoles."

Square, Enix, Capcom, Konami, DMA (now Rockstar North), EA, Namco; these companies don't ring a bell? How about Chrono Trigger, Dragon Quest, Street Fighter 2, Castlevania, Final Fantasy, or NHL?

The fact is, most of the 3rd party videogame companies in existence developed for the NES and SNES (far fewer for the N64, but we're obviously not just talking about the N64 era) - and Rare had the top selling game on the SNES, and genre topping games on the NES. So again, your point is wrong.


The reason why your post isn't relevant is because a comparison to Rare then and now has nothing to do with Rare vs Retro. What is relevant largely revolves around sales and supporting the platform, and how Retro has achieved nowhere near what Rare had achieved during its time developing for Nintendo.

Julius Seeker wrote: blah blah blah

Julius Seeker wrote:Calling Retro a successor to Rare is severely understating the legacy of the now fallen development company.

See how easily I can toss your stupid shit aside? You set the stage for my reply...don't like it, don't say stupid shit.

Here is some more cutting through Seeker bullshit: Even though I clearly point out why sales were higher on Nintendo, when MS bought Rare their titles averaged, if you want to be realistic by omitting 007 & DKC, 500k sales per title. Conker:L&R sold 750k. Kameo sold 500k. Perfect Dark Zero sold 900k. VP sold 1.8m. BK:NB sold 1m. Kinect Sports sold 5m.

I don't think Rare's titles above are very good. They are OK, sure, and decently fun...but they are just as average as they were on Nintendo systems. You know what's really changed? Rare isn't a big, solo fish in a small pond anymore. Boo-hoo, the make-believe legend Nintendo fans propped up is dead...and they "died" the minute MS bought them.

kali o. wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote: blah blah blah

See how easily I can toss your stupid shit aside?

You mean the part where you decided to ignore factual information that made your trolling look foolish?

kali o. wrote:Here is some more cutting through Seeker bullshit: Even though I clearly point out why sales were higher on Nintendo,

Clearly! Because the NES and SNES clearly had no third party developers except Rare.

kali o. wrote:if you want to be realistic by omitting 007 & DKC, 500k sales per title.

Yeah, 500K like the original Banjo Kazooie's 3.65 million; Killer Instinct's 3.2 million, Diddy Kong Racing's 4.88 million

kali o. wrote:Kinect Sports sold 5m

Impressive sales figure for a game that only actually moved 4.3 million, and is available bundled with the system.

kali o. wrote:I don't think Rare's titles above are very good. They are OK, sure, and decently fun...but they are just as average as they were on Nintendo systems.

Oh yes! Those completely average games like the RC Pro-Ams, Battletoads, DKC's and GE007. They made no larger impact than Kameo or Kinect Sports.

Julius Seeker wrote:Oh yes! Those completely average games like the RC Pro-Ams, Battletoads, DKC's and GE007. They made no larger impact than Kameo or Kinect Sports.

Your other nonsense and incorrect info aside, I get a kick out of your choices here:

A spy hunter rip off, a tmnt copy, a game shiggy helped make with movie tech and a game the revolutionized nothing except in the mind of unwashed console players. Brilliant. Best of all, despite your desperate reach into NES, high sales for Rare didn't come until DKC and then their "golden age"...which strangely seems to be....wait for it...N64 as practically the sole 3rd party.

Hey, while we are claiming retarded shit, allow me to mention Viva won countless awards & revolutionized avatar/pet games. Oh and Kinect Sports won even more awards and revolutioned motion control games. Derp derp.

kali o. wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote:Oh yes! Those completely average games like the RC Pro-Ams, Battletoads, DKC's and GE007. They made no larger impact than Kameo or Kinect Sports.

Your other nonsense and incorrect info aside.

Before I address the rest of your post. What exactly is this "nonsense and incorrect info" you are referring to?

Julius Seeker wrote:
Before I address the rest of your post. What exactly is this "nonsense and incorrect info" you are referring to?

Everything you posted. Kinect/Kinect Sports, that I ever claimed Rare was the only 3rd party on NES/SNES, the impact of the the average copycat games you listed, and the sales numbers (my number was an average of public sales information. Every outlier you want to list just makes the sales numbers for the other 100+ Rare games drop all that further...so go nuts).

Pick your poison.

Although Kinect Sports is a special case (requires console and a peripheral), I would say that looking at sales figures between the install base of the 360 and the n64 or super nintendo needs to be viewed through the inflation of the console market today. There are more 360s out there than probably SNESs and N64s in their day, so I am not sure if looking at sales figures would be a worthwhile argument.

kali o. wrote:1. Kinect/Kinect Sports,

What about Kinect Sports? The Kinect Sports Bundle Or the fact that it moved 4.31 (now 4.32) units and not the 5 million you stated?

kali o. wrote:2. that I ever claimed Rare was the only 3rd party on NES/SNES,

Oh but you did!

"Rare's newer games are better than their old games...just the were practically the ONLY 3rd party dev for Nintendo consoles."

kali o. wrote:3. the impact of the the average copycat games you listed, and the sales numbers

Yeah, you were trying to argue that Pro Am was a clone of Spy Hunter. Here's Spyhunter



And here's RC Pro Am and RC Pro Am 2:



With comparisons like this, you can essentially say that almost every game in existence is a ripoff/clone of something else.

In addition, you can check down in the Shrine's very own "New NES Purchases" and see that we still love Pro Am even today =)

kali o. wrote:4. my number was an average of public sales information. Every outlier you want to list just makes the sales numbers for the other 100+ Rare games drop all that further...so go nuts).
Pick your poison.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in your sources, mind sharing these "public sales information" source of yours?

vgc numbers are not accurate, you nipplehead. I trust MS for real numbers. 3mil were sold as of early 2011.

Just because you have an inability to apply logic to a statement doesn't mean I said what you think. By the same token, I suppose I claimed Rare is the only 3rd party for the Wii too, so go nuts disproving that point ya wingnut.

RC Pro am is a rip off of spyhunter, which proceded it. The only thing Pro am did that was interesting was perspective, and even that wasn't new.

Julius Seeker wrote: You seem to have a lot of confidence in your sources, mind sharing these "public sales information" source of yours?

You are kidding right? It was a public aquisition, the numbers for Rare were pasted in every release. Near 90mil units over 130 games, as of 2002.

You are officially too retarded to respond to...

kali o. wrote:You are officially too retarded to respond to...

Did you ever check out the "ignore user" section in your profile? Your experience here at the Shrine could be significantly enhanced if you do. It's worked wonders for me

Zeus wrote:

kali o. wrote:You are officially too retarded to respond to...

Did you ever check out the "ignore user" section in your profile? Your experience here at the Shrine could be significantly enhanced if you do. It's worked wonders for me

I'm not nearly as annoyed as I am pretending...but the arguement sure is stupid. So I need to stop.

kali o. wrote:vgc numbers are not accurate, you nipplehead. I trust MS for real numbers. 3mil were sold as of early 2011.

So the source you have says 3 million, and not the 5 million you quoted. If you're going to quote numbers, provide a source. Right now VGC is better than any source you have provided (which is nothing).

kali o. wrote:Just because you have an inability to apply logic to a statement doesn't mean I said what you think. By the same token, I suppose I claimed Rare is the only 3rd party for the Wii too, so go nuts disproving that point ya wingnut.

Oh logic! Let's take a look at this thread from a logical perspective.

1. I provided an argument that due to Rare's achievements on the NES, SNES, and N64. That Retro's, whose achievements are evidently far fewer and of a lesser degree, are not worthy to be considered a successor to Rare.

2. You counter argued with "Rare's newer games are better than their old games...just the were practically the ONLY 3rd party dev for Nintendo consoles."

Since my first post deals with NES, SNES, and N64; and that we can factually deduce that Rare had successful titles on the SNES through known sales figures - and at the very least anecdotal evidence within this very forum for NES - logically, what consoles are we talking about?

I'll give you a hint, despite your understanding of logic, it's not the Wii!

kali o. wrote:RC Pro am is a rip off of spyhunter, which proceded it. The only thing Pro am did that was interesting was perspective, and even that wasn't new.

Aside from cars with weapons, specifically, what else makes Pro Am a ripoff of Spyhunter?

kali o. wrote:

Julius Seeker wrote: You seem to have a lot of confidence in your sources, mind sharing these "public sales information" source of yours?

You are kidding right? It was a public aquisition, the numbers for Rare were pasted in every release. Near 90mil units over 130 games, as of 2002.

Finally, you've provided some numbers that can be sourced - Is showing that Rare sold 90 million games really the best you can do to demonstrate that Rare is the antithesis for success?

Here's a quote from your source:
http://www.msxbox-world.com/features/ar ... -rare.html

Rare became one of the premiere developers in the world, with sales averaging 1.4 million units per title and nearly 90 million games sold since the company was founded.

This actually supports my argument, not yours.

kali o. wrote:You are officially too retarded to respond to...

Well, you failed to source anything to support your argument (although you have unwittingly supported mine), and even reduced yourself to attempts at distorting your own statements so they wouldn't seem so obviously foolish as they are. In addition, you're a 30 some year old man resorting to name calling; I don't know the purpose of that is in this argument, are you actually attempting to hurt my feelings?

In the end, we had an argument, and I won that argument.

kali o. wrote:

Zeus wrote:

kali o. wrote:You are officially too retarded to respond to...

Did you ever check out the "ignore user" section in your profile? Your experience here at the Shrine could be significantly enhanced if you do. It's worked wonders for me

I'm not nearly as annoyed as I am pretending...but the arguement sure is stupid. So I need to stop.

Don't ever forget:

Julius Seeker wrote: Finally, you've provided some numbers that can be sourced - Is showing that Rare sold 90 million games really the best you can do to demonstrate that Rare is the antithesis for success?

Here's a quote from your source:
http://www.msxbox-world.com/features/ar ... -rare.html

Rare became one of the premiere developers in the world, with sales averaging 1.4 million units per title and nearly 90 million games sold since the company was founded.

This actually supports my argument, not yours.

Just as a parting shot:

a) 1.4 mil wouldn't support your arguement (actually, no numbers would, since it's not relevant, but I expect that to fly over your head).
b) What's that work out to if you remove 007 & DKC like I said...? Ya, thanks for playing nipplehead.

kali o. wrote: a) 1.4 mil wouldn't support your arguement
b) What's that work out to if you remove 007 & DKC

I don't need the 1.4 million number support my argument. I already have plenty of arguments above; and the fact that the statement from your own source clearly disagrees with your argument is just the icing: "Rare became one of the premiere developers in the world, with sales averaging 1.4 million units per title and nearly 90 million games sold since the company was founded."

The best you can is tell me to remove two of Rare's benchmark titles from the equation in order to make your argument somehow seem less ridiculous.

I disagree that Rare's newer games are better than their older games. I'm actually envious of that viewpoint though, because if I shared it, I could be having fun with their games today instead of wishing for the golden days.

Alec wrote:I disagree that Rare's newer games are better than their older games. I'm actually envious of that viewpoint though, because if I shared it, I could be having fun with their games today instead of wishing for the golden days.

Don't be too envious, with the exception of DKC and Viva, I've never had too much fun with Rare's mediocre games. Out of curiousity, what's your XBL name?

kali o. wrote:

Alec wrote:I disagree that Rare's newer games are better than their older games. I'm actually envious of that viewpoint though, because if I shared it, I could be having fun with their games today instead of wishing for the golden days.

Don't be too envious, with the exception of DKC and Viva, I've never had too much fun with Rare's mediocre games. Out of curiousity, what's your XBL name?

Never played Blast Corps, Battletoads, or Goldeneye?

Zeus wrote: Never played Blast Corps, Battletoads, or Goldeneye?

I'm sad to say I did. Did you own anything other than a N64 at first ?

Nothing special about Battletoads. It was a me-too game if there ever was one. Blast Corps I never enjoyed in the slightest. And Goldeneye was only special to people that didn't game on the PC. I got stoned and played plenty of GE with friends, but are we pretending the game was anything innovative on reflection?

Goldeneye is the only FPS on a console that I've ever enjoyed, but a lot of that was I used to have a friend that would come by several times a week to play it with me. Otherwise, yeah, it was a bit of a zero.

kali o. wrote:

Zeus wrote: Never played Blast Corps, Battletoads, or Goldeneye?

I'm sad to say I did. Did you own anything other than a N64 at first ?

Nothing special about Battletoads. It was a me-too game if there ever was one. Blast Corps I never enjoyed in the slightest. And Goldeneye was only special to people that didn't game on the PC. I got stoned and played plenty of GE with friends, but are we pretending the game was anything innovative on reflection?

Kali, you forget sending me a Turbo CD? :-) My first system was a NES which I got in Xmas of '87, so yes.

Blast Corps was awesome, best action puzzler I've played. Goldeneye is THE game that not only made FPSs viable on consoles but also started multiplayer deathmatch on them too. HUGELY successful and in the 90s, only Half Life was close to it on the PC. I agree with Battletoads, actually, I was never a big fan. But the other two were amazing

God damn Blast Corps was fucking amazing. Probably my crowning achievement on full completion of a game.

My XBL tag is Alec2DaBreen (although this is like my 4th tag, my original [and beefiest] tag was TheBreenis, but it's banned).

This was one of my favourite games as a kid.

Alec wrote:God damn Blast Corps was fucking amazing. Probably my crowning achievement on full completion of a game.

My XBL tag is Alec2DaBreen (although this is like my 4th tag, my original [and beefiest] tag was TheBreenis, but it's banned).

That game was disgusting to Platinum. I got half of them but just gave up after that

This is the consequences of pirating software in an always-online world. Wait 'til the next set of consoles from Sony and Microshaft, they're gonna make Blizzard seem hands-off by comparison

Rare sucks balls in all forms from all generations.

THREAD OVA!