The Shrine

I got into closed beta back in May so I've been playing this for a while. The game is surprisingly good, especially considering how much polishing they managed to do in the months I played it before release. I thought this game was going to be universally hated and I definitely regretted buying it full price before I got into the beta. Now, with the changes they made before release I definitely don't regret the purchase any more.

In terms of story, they did very well. There's no dialog, but all of the quests come with some sort of monologue/cinematic from the quest giver(s) and sometimes they're long ass monologues. The voice work is excellent - I would say even better than a lot of the voice work in SWTOR.

Most of the quests don't really vary from your standard MMORPG fare (kill stuff, use object, bring this somewhere), but investigation quest series and sabotage missions definitely bring something new to the table. The investigation missions justify the price tag alone - it has been a very long time since I've felt the kind of satisfaction one gets from puzzle solving like I do in this game. Investigation quests don't even give you any sort of waypoint - there's some kind of clue and you're on your own to figure out the next step. The interesting (and for some, game breaking) part of these quests is sometimes you have to go out of the game (there's an in game browser) in order to figure out some of the quests. Either a smart Google search or knowledge of something 'obscure' like memorization of bible passages or familiarity with Morse code are examples of what you'd need for some of these. Rewards for these quests (I've found five so far and they can potentially take an hour or more your first time through) are typically three to five times the reward you would get for your more standard quests.

Sabotage missions typically involve elements of timing and stealth and involve a certain amount of tricky tinkering with game mechanics. I did one yesterday for the first time that was fairly exciting where I had to make my way through a completely dark underground parking garage while attempting to avoid monsters. I can't say I've ever felt this kind of fear through exhilaration in an MMORPG before. Had to first make my way with a head lamp that died about half-way in and then I had to use a flare gun. The lighting made this very eery.

The graphics are amazing and there are moments where I feel like it's one of if not the most beautiful game I've ever played. And that's on the lowest settings. Game is huuuge. 36gb installed.

I'd say that if you're interested and bored this game is worth getting right this moment. If not, wait for it to go on sale, or when it'll inevitably go free to play in 1.5-2 years (I can't see the subscriber base fleeing, but my familiarity with late game is non-existent since I didn't want to ruin a game that is at its best the first time you're doing something.)

Oh, and the level-less, class-less character building is very well done.

I have not bothered for 2 reasons:

- It's Funcom
- The cash shop

I am fine with microtransactions OR subscriptions, but not both. That might seem hypcritical, since I am OK with Turbine's model but it's something about the way Funcom went about it...rubs me wrong.

Sounds interesting... ive still yet to ever get sucked into an MMO, though. I did a quick search and there is a lifetime purchase option of $250 where you dont pay monthly? Thats a lot, but tempting.

kali o. wrote:I have not bothered for 2 reasons:

- It's Funcom
- The cash shop

I am fine with microtransactions OR subscriptions, but not both. That might seem hypcritical, since I am OK with Turbine's model but it's something about the way Funcom went about it...rubs me wrong.

I understand apprehension with Funcom and cash shops, but what is wrong with the cash shop in this instance? It's just character clothing (which has no stats) and character titles. The clothing isn't even that great compared to what's for sale with currency earned in the game.

Actually, in order to buy more than three character slots you have to slip them another $5-10. That's bullshit. With the character system rewarding experimentation (and since you can redo nearly every quest in the game, it isn't punishing to experiment) and there only being three factions, one would think more than three character slots would be a luxury, but it's still bullshit.

Edit: They gave me something like 7700 of their cash shop points which I can't see ever running out of at this point.. Everything is like 2-300 points and so far there's only two silly purchases I've made. I'm not sure how I got the points.. Closed beta perk?

Shrinweck wrote:I understand apprehension with Funcom and cash shops, but what is wrong with the cash shop in this instance? It's just character clothing (which has no stats) and character titles. The clothing isn't even that great compared to what's for sale with currency earned in the game.

Actually, in order to buy more than three character slots you have to slip them another $5-10. That's bullshit. With the character system rewarding experimentation (and since you can redo nearly every quest in the game, it isn't punishing to experiment) and there only being three factions, one would think more than three character slots would be a luxury, but it's still bullshit.

Edit: They gave me something like 7700 of their cash shop points which I can't see ever running out of at this point.. Everything is like 2-300 points and so far there's only two silly purchases I've made. I'm not sure how I got the points.. Closed beta perk?

Well here is the thing -- if they took the time to add the infrastructure, they plan to use it. If they plan to use it, they plan to maximize profit from it. If they plan to maximize profit, they plan to have dedicated development for the fluff they'll stick in there.

Right out of the gate, they are planning to benefit from both standard subscription based models and microtransactions (f2p), in parallel. That is what bugs me...with EA in the picture, I'm not totally surprised.

Now that said, I *really, really* like a lot of the ideas behind TSW and despite my misgivings (Funcom, EA, cash shop), I am having difficulty fighting the urge to buy it.

Well I'm still definitely having a blast with it.

Also I figured out that I got my bonus points in the cash shop by reporting bugs during the closed beta.

When they end doing a "refer a friend" type promo, send something my way please.

Sure thing. There's something similar now but it's only a 24 hour buddy pass which may be the worst trial offer I've ever seen.

I'd assume it's setup to support both because the game will probably go F2P like most failed MMORPGs anyway so might as well setup for it.

On an unrelated note, I think most of the refer a friend programs are terrible. They really think I'm going to go through the trouble of convincing another guy to play to get a mount that's usually not even all that good? If you can't give me a free month of subscription at least give me something that will physically help me in the game. Can be XP potions or money or whatever, doesn't have to be super important, but way too many games seems to think their random vanity pet is supposed to be all you need to play the game.

Which is a smart move considering unless you're selling millions of units and can afford concurrent development cycles (in the form of free patches and future expansions). Barring that, sooner or later they will have to adopt some sort of F2P format or shut down their MMORPG entirely. I imagine Funcom immediately opening a cash shop will help with both putting off (probable) F2P inevitability and allow an easier transition once it does happen.

I'm tentatively not going to take offense to cash shops until they become pay to win or obstruct gameplay enjoyment.

24 hour buddy keys? Silly.

I broke down and bought it, since word of mouth is generally positive. Is there a server you are on and/or character name? I am still updating, so I have no idea about anything yet.

Depends on what you want - since I'm not the type to PvP I've joined servers that were mostly populated by the faction I was joining so I could get the substantial PvE/PvP bonus you get for holding certain objectives. The most balanced and populated server that I know of is Cerberus but I've taken my characters off that server since there are 3 quests I like running that are commonly broken on such a populated server. Faction overpopulation doesn't have any effect on the PvEing other than the objective holding bonus whose primary benefit is an experience bonus that I think maxes at 21%. Since there is no PvP system in the PvE areas (everyone can group together, it's just guilds that are segregated) you aren't constantly getting ganked by the overpopulated faction.

My Dragon is on Huldra and my Illuminati/Templar characters are on Daemon. I'm mostly playing my Templar as my main right now and his name is Xachariah and the Illuminati is Adahn and the Dragon is Yemeth. With how servers are set up you don't need to join a server that I'm on though - if we ever want to group for something one of us can transfer to the other persons server temporarily. Tells and names are limited as if the game was one giant server so even that has no bearing on which server you should join.

So in any case - Huldra if you want a Dragon population, Daemon if you want a Templar population, and Cerberus if you want tons of people in a (last I checked) balanced population. I'm not sure about the state of the other servers.

If you have any questions when you're in the game feel free to send me a tell - I didn't want to spoil things for myself so I limited my beta testing to the first two areas so I know certain things like the back of my hand (I think I've been through Kingsmouth over a dozen times at this point and the next area I've done nearly everything five or six times).

Can't wait for my upgrade - this is the first game that runs like utter shit on my PC even on the lowest settings. It was even worse in beta. I seriously had regrets about buying this game at full price before I saw how much better the final build was.

Edit: If a server is listed full you can still enter with your character, it just means you can't create a character on it until some people log off. This can be a matter of seconds or hours if you're trying for Cerberus.

I did Huldra (Illumanati) because...well, that was basically the only one of the servers you mentioned that worked...lol. It's too early for me to make any judgements, but initial impressions make me think of a polished Fallen Earth (minus the crafting). I was hoping to see some "non combat skills" like stealth, etc -- didn't spot anything. I have it running on ultra settings and getting about 40fps, which is fine. It looks good...but animations are definitely...well, a little sloppy.

My nickname should be "Afflicted", and I will likely use him only to power through the game and see if I like it.

No real non combat skills to speak of. Stealth would break a great deal of the game - there are elements of it in certain missions but it never requires you to activate a skill and then move at a slower pace. Crafting is simplistic but at least there's absolutely no grinding involved with it. Crafting is used in an interesting way here and there later on though.

With the deck system you have seven active skills and seven passive skills that basically only have combat uses. There are a couple active skills that have some utility out of combat but that's typically not their true purpose. First impressions with the game are kind of hit and miss - a lot of the cool stuff is typically only involved in the yellow tile sabotage missions and the green tile investigation missions. Blue and red missions are typical fetch and kill variety, albeit more creative than your standard fare.

So I've spent more time with the game, here are some thoughts:

TSW is a very shallow game in what it offers the players. Combat skills are the only outlet available (no real crafting, no hobby, etc.). In a way, it's very similar to guild wars, managing very simple loadouts (skills) from the countless available that you learn. It's fun enough, to be sure, but I really have to wonder what sort of long term playability is offered, especially at end game (which as near as I can tell, is grinding out Nightmare modes with very specific loadouts for the "role" you NEED to play).

I have yet to try PvP, so that may alter my opinion somewhat.

As a game, it's pretty fun. As an MMO (combat only), I have to wonder what they can add to it to make it viable for the long term as pay to play.

MMORPGs in general have poor long term playability. At best in any of them you run the same few dungeons until you get some rare piece of equipment just so you can maybe survive in PvP for an extra four seconds. In a year or so all of this work is rendered useless when an expansion is rolled out that turns your hard work into a waste of time once you've out-leveled its usefulness. The idea of this being fun (unless someone REALLY digs incremental improvement) has a lot to do with the people you're doing it with. The two games I've put up with grinding dungeons were the only games where I've connected with enough people to really enjoy being in a guild.

Also I'm all for not having to spend hours grinding some dumb crafting skill or constantly having to go out of my way for gathering nodes.

Don has a good quote in one of these threads in the past few months along the lines that MMORPGs are mostly only being fun for that initial treadmill up until you exhaust the content and this game doesn't really buck that trend. I've been having fun recreating characters to mess around with weapon synergies, but once I settle into an actual main and dig through all the content I'll probably be unsubscribing until the next huge content release.

I've also found it difficult to play this game with my upgrade so close at hand (parts coming on Wednesday and Thursday unless something goes wrong) since it runs so terribly on my PC. Looking forward to picking it up again.

From what I've heard PvP is really fun and rewarding and there are avenues to still have fun even if you're playing a faction that is outnumbered and is doubtlessly going to lose.

Well playing a FPS over and over doesn't make you more powerful and you're unlikely to significantly get better at a FPS but people still play.

So just because there isn't always new gear to grind doesn't mean MMORPG is inherently in a dead end. Problem is that if you say PvP all day and have a 55% win record or whatever, why exactly should you pay $15 month for this kind of experience that you can get in any kind of game with a multiplayer dimension? You can obviously win 55% in a FPS or even a game like Civ 5 (though it's a huge pain to setup a game of Civ 5 multiplayer). Why is it in a MMORPG the same thing costs you $15/month instead $0? And in the end that price matters a lot because it's not like gameplay in MMORPG, PvP or PvE, is anything special compare to other genres.

I think it's time they need to just rethink having say $5/month or so. F2P, as currently structured, is basically hoping 10% of the guy will pay $150/month so it's kind of like $15/month and whether that actually works or not, it's a pretty bad model. In the best case you've something like EQ2 where whoever made the F2P stuff obviously never thought about how good the free stuff is so you can basically get a free game forever for an initial $10 investment. While that's good for the player that's obviously not very good for the game developer. All good F2Ps are generally designed to make it just impossible to do anything useful without paying but people aren't that dumb and they'll see through it. It used to be you can't go below $5/month because then people will think your game sucks when every other game out there charges $15/month. But with even WoW having problem retaining its population and no shortage of F2Ps, I think the market is ready to embrace MMORPGs that simply charge less per month. If you look at the statistics for F2P rate they'd probably equivalent of each sub pulling in $1-$2/month anyway so why not just charge about the much?

I don't know if Shrin still plays this one, but it ended up pretty much like a suspected. I basically quit before my first month was up simply because there was nothing fun left to do (grinding marks for slightly better gear to make grinding marks slightly faster is not fun content).

I don't know if TSW has announced F2P yet, but it has no choice. I think Funcom was forced to layoff 50% of their staff.

As for MMORPGs in general, I think the subscription model is perfectly valid -- but people need a sandbox for that to work, where they log into the game and can basically create their own content. Themepark MMOs with their dead end grinds need to be F2P, simply because they all are now. Thanks to WoW.

No I some how got deep back into SWTOR and ME3 back in July and August and then with the release of GW2 and Borderlands 2 I'm properly distracted. With the release schedule being what it is I'm not sure I'll get back to it this year... but I'm definitely interested for it in the future. I'd say I get my money's worth in the three to five weeks I was playing it like crazy.

Also I like giving Funcom money almost as much as Turbine. No.. that's not true. But I have a sweet spot for them.

Shrinweck wrote:Also I like giving Funcom money almost as much as Turbine. No.. that's not true. But I have a sweet spot for them.

You sound like somebody with Stockholm's Syndrome.

Yeah how dare I have a sore spot for the company that released The Longest Journey :P

I recall reading about server mergers for The Secret World.

I think ultimately all of your generic, quasi-successful MMORPGs are just something you pay $15/month for a chat room. Almost no MMORPG actually put out content worth your $15/month relative to even the industry itself. For example in WoW you get like maybe one major content patch every 6-12 months. Using the 6 months figure that means you pay $90 for a major content, or you could just use that money on any of the other 15 MMORPGs coming out that's likely an exact same type of clone of whatever you just played but with newer graphics if nothing else. Also, most of the content is only interesting in the 'launch craze' phase. Even WAR was pretty fun when there's a lot of people on it even though the overall game sucks, and obviously any established MMORPG isn't going to have any launch insanity if you stick around in it. I think people play MMORPG the same way you got guys camping out for midnight releases of stuff you could buy online at the same time. It's the fact that you're lining up in a tent that makes the experience cool, not the fact that you really care that much about whatever you're camping for. Sure people complain about queues and whatnot but if people aren't into that kind of thing you wouldn't see people repeatedly try to cram into the most overpopulated server, and there is some charm to see a few hundred guys attacking each other in any game that supports PvP, or even just have the luxury of actually having people around to group with in the zones between level 1 and n-1 which you sure won't see in a game that's been out for even half an year.

In the long run I think someone just need to bite the bullet and start doing a theme park MMORPG for like $2-5 a month. It's not that the sub model can't work but it has to be cheaper or you might as well just go from MMORPG to MMORPG. I really don't see why MMORPGs ought to have higher maintenance costs compared to any popular game that you can play online. I guess the biggest cost would be customer service but you just tell your customer don't expect much immediate response if you're paying $2 a month compared to the guy paying $5 a month.

Shrinweck wrote:Yeah how dare I have a sore spot for the company that released The Longest Journey

And Age of Conan. And Anarchy Online. Which epic failed.

Definitely Stockholm's.

I didn't play Age of Conan. Thank God. Who read about that game and wanted to play it? :P

On a more serious note the IP doesn't interest me and neither do PvP focused MMORPGs.

Also I kind of liked Anarchy Online once everything got ironed out, but I was pretty young when it came out. It didn't seem to crush me like it did for other people when it turned out to be mostly shit. I moved on with my life to greener pastures (better games) and then gave it a go when it improved. There was some good stuff in there. Was it the first MMORPG to do instanced single player missions? Not having to camp spawns for quest loot is about as smart as MMORPG development got back then. Escaping from a fantasy setting for that stuff was also a breath of fresh air.

Have you played The Longest Journey?

It's just like liking an author's books even though most of them aren't as good as that one, you still want to dip your toes into the new ones to see if some of that magic is there.

I played AoC at launch...thing about that game, it really did have all the ideas in place for a great game. But they literally didn't finish anything out of Tortage. The first intro portion of the game is polished as fuck, and then all of sudden the rest of the game is just an utter unfinished mess. It was wacky. Probably one of the most fun 1st day I've had with an MMO...and also the MMO I uninstalled quickest (gave it one week if I recall).

As for TLJ, I can't remember if I played it. I know I played Dreamfall though, and it was pretty amazing.