The Shrine

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Since the post is buried pretty deep I started my own thread. I'll name some pretty gaping character/plot holes in FF8:

1. The entire Orphanage thing borderlines on comical. You've a bunch of guys who just conveniently 'forgot' they used to all live together and Edea was the Matron. While I thought the Tribia scene in the basketball court was one of the best in the game, it takes more than just a suspension of belief to believe that all these people who are supposed to be best friends and essentially a family just 'forgot' about each other. If their GF addiction was that bad, you'd think they'll forget what they're supposed to do at random intervals.

2. Squall going from 'I hate you all and I hate myself' to suddenly following in love with Rinoa to the point where he can't leave her. Maybe it's just that I absolutely despise Rinoa, but I really don't see any kind of smooth transition from Squall being a total jerk to everyone to suddenly realize he can't live without her on the space ship. Oh yeah, it also doesn't help that you can just not choose Rinoa in your party so you could never see her around except for the parts where the game forces you to.

3. Squall "I don't talk to people" Leonheart becoming the leader of Balomb Garden. Last time I checked, people skills matter too when you're in charge of an organization. The assault on Galbadia Garden is a very pathetic attempt to make Squall look like a good leader. If I was one of the SeeD on Balomb, I think I will feel less motivated to defeat Galbadia after the dry speech Squall gives, assuming I even care about someone who was obviously too cool to talk to mere peons and treats everyone like a jerk. Obviously this is supposed to show how he's a natural born leader based on his heritage, but it just doesn't work out that way. Squall lacks the skills to be a leader. He might be very good at leading a commando squad of doom of 3 people but he's not good at controlling an entire organization, like the Garden.

4. Edea's whole 'she's-a-good-person-possessed-by-someone-we-never-heard-of' deal is just poor development in general. Posssession is a very cheap copout. On that subject, Ultimecia is a pathetic villian, certainly worthy to be along the lines of Zeromus and Necron as the most poorly developed Final Fantasy villians ever. There is nothing wrong with supreme evil being bent on destroying all that is good but having the said supreme evil being pop up at the last second to explain everything that's happened is just bad.

If I have to judge a game on the playable characters, FF8 would be just downright medicore if not pathetic. Squall's role basically assume he has super charisma and people skills, since he is the son of the super charismatic Laguna Loire, but this is simply not true. He is portrayed as a jerk to all those around him and none of the magic that Laguna weaves with his intelligence and charisma is at all visible in Squall. Rinoa is basically completely stupid, coming up with braindead plans that even Selphie would disapprove. While this doesn't impact her romance with Squall (which isn't handled very smoothly either) it doesn't make her likeable. While the other supporting cast (Irvine, Selphie, Zell, and Quistis) aren't bad, they're not much to write home about. Their best scene is by the basketball court scene in Tribia but this is undermined by a ridiculous premise that these best friends all just happen to forget due to GF addiction.

Mind you, FF8 has some of the best developed nonplayable characters. Laguna is probably the only character in RPG I know of that truly comes across as a charismatic leader. Seifer's friendship with Raijin/Fujin, especially the final battle against Seifer, is very well done. Still, it can't completely make up for the main characters being horrible. I play FF8 as much as any other FF game (3 times, which is a lot for me) but I find myself playing for the story of everyone else but the main characters.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>FF8's plot was pretty ridiculous, but the gameplay and music more than compensated. It's one of those RPGs you replay for the entertaining gameplay, not the story.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>1. The entire Orphanage thing borderlines on comical. You've a bunch of guys who just conveniently 'forgot' they used to all live together and Edea was the Matron. While I thought the Tribia scene in the basketball court was one of the best in the game, it takes more than just a suspension of belief to believe that all these people who are supposed to be best friends and essentially a family just 'forgot' about each other. If their GF addiction was that bad, you'd think they'll forget what they're supposed to do at random intervals.

Actually Irvine remembered, they were among the people at the orphanage (as it does speak about others, and show them at various points throughout the game). When people junction with GF's they lose a portion of their long term memories in exchange over time, similar to that science fiction novel (Jonny something, forget the name just now). How did these people end up together? It could be fate, but it more or less seams that Cid purposely put them together because he knew about their qualities.



2. Squall going from 'I hate you all and I hate myself' to suddenly following in love with Rinoa to the point where he can't leave her. Maybe it's just that I absolutely despise Rinoa, but I really don't see any kind of smooth transition from Squall being a total jerk to everyone to suddenly realize he can't live without her on the space ship. Oh yeah, it also doesn't help that you can just not choose Rinoa in your party so you could never see her around except for the parts where the game forces you to.

Squall never said that he hated other people or that he hated himself. I think you missed all of the build up between Squall and Rinoa throughout the game due to you "hating" Rinoa, but to say that the two characters are incapable of love is absurd. Squall's character is a caring one (you can quite easily see that by his interactions with Selphie and Zell) but he does have a cool exterior; of course since it was just his exterior personality, when Rinoa was in danger, it often was enough to shatter that.


3. Squall "I don't talk to people" Leonheart becoming the leader of Balomb Garden. Last time I checked, people skills matter too when you're in charge of an organization. The assault on Galbadia Garden is a very pathetic attempt to make Squall look like a good leader. If I was one of the SeeD on Balomb, I think I will feel less motivated to defeat Galbadia after the dry speech Squall gives, assuming I even care about someone who was obviously too cool to talk to mere peons and treats everyone like a jerk. Obviously this is supposed to show how he's a natural born leader based on his heritage, but it just doesn't work out that way. Squall lacks the skills to be a leader. He might be very good at leading a commando squad of doom of 3 people but he's not good at controlling an entire organization, like the Garden.

Ever read about Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte? He certainly didn't conquer Europe because of his people skills; he was quite anti-social and well known for it. He conquered Europe because of his experience and military genious. In the plot it shows that Squall generally knows exactly what the hell he's doing, there wasn't much time for planning yet his military strategy worked (though he admits that there were some flaws).

Also, Squall did generally fail with the Garden as most of the people had left (talk to people within the Garden itself during the later stages of the game). His words did not motivate a lot of people to stick around, those who did obviously are voicing their loyalty to "The Garden".


4. Edea's whole 'she's-a-good-person-possessed-by-someone-we-never-heard-of' deal is just poor development in general. Posssession is a very cheap copout. On that subject, Ultimecia is a pathetic villian, certainly worthy to be along the lines of Zeromus and Necron as the most poorly developed Final Fantasy villians ever. There is nothing wrong with supreme evil being bent on destroying all that is good but having the said supreme evil being pop up at the last second to explain everything that's happened is just bad.

Ultimecia's character was actually in the game from relatively early on. It was not Edea, it was actually Ultimecia who was the sorceress in the beginning, but this isn't learned until later on in the game (disk 2 if I remember correctly) when Edea tells you herself about her possession. A very important part of the plot is about Ultimecia possessing the consciousness of sorceresses going backwards in time triggering certain events to achieve her goals leading up to her main goal. She is corrupt and bent on the accumulation of power for her purposes. What else do you expect villain in a game such as Final Fantasy?


As for saying the plot in Final Fantasy 7 is better, there is not a single aspect in FF7 that makes the plot enjoyable to an intellectual audience. Perhaps to those who are entertained by flicks such as Transformers the movie (or whatever), but there is very little significant character interaction and the plot seamed very rushed. The author obviously did not care a great deal about his characters as he just sort of kills a major one off (the event) serving the plot in absolutely no way. The Aeris death scene was perhaps the most cheesy scene in all of the later FF games, it goes beyond Starwars cheesyness. Also, the final boss of Final Fantasy 7 was trying to crush the world with a meteor because he's a clone of a guy with an Oedipus complex, and the ending is spirit energy destroying that meteor (this makes no sense and is absolutely irrelivant to everything else that happens in the plot). I can pick apart FF7's plot forever. The truth is just that it's far too simplistic and poorly written for me to find it enjoyable. I do not like plots that drag on like that, especially in a game that was sold solely on pre-rendered graphics, like Riven; I played Riven just as I played Final Fantasy 7, and I was impressed by neither. Though FF8's graphics might be supererior, it is also vastly superior in just about every other aspect to FF7. FF7 was simply a rushjob.

In the end, Final Fantasy 7 is a game that was created to sell to audiences of the lowest common denominator (as was Starwars and other crap like that). If an individual likes that sort of thing, fine, but this is generally my viewpoint on that particular type of product. On the otherhand, I found Final Fantasy 8 to be quite enjoyable, it was the only Final Fantasy game where I had such a strong attattchment to the characters in the game (though I will play FF9 and 10 first before making that statement final). I could have just not given FF8 a chance, I thought I didn't like the game after my initial run through, but it was mainly because I treated it as a simple game that is easy to just rush through like every other Final Fantasy game I've ever played. Generally I began playing with negative expectations, I knew I liked the game better than FF7, but only slightly (I actually got to DO things in Final Fantasy 8 that had meaning), I disliked it. After giving 8 a second shot, I found that I was actually quite mistaken, I found myself enthralled with the plot soon after I began playing. My major enjoyment of the game came with the fact that I did appreciate the characters, and I am not just speaking about the main ones, I am talking about all of the characters involved within the plot. From Julia, to Ellone, to the Moomba's, to Squall. The game has the best secondary characters of any that I can ever remember playing.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Play FFX. The voice acting does quite a lot to help form attachments to characters.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Yeah, I am on my way to it (just have to get through part 9 first). I've owned the game for quite a while but I just haven't had the time to get around to it yet.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Really? It made me want to drive a nail in Yuna's upper lip to keep her mouth shut. Teeeeedus sounds like a whiny biznatch and Wakka.....</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '><img src="http://">

OMG you people are sick...</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>oops, didn't mean to post an image. I just meant that you people who play ff8 to "enjoy the gameplay" are sick. If they replaced the draw system with a real-time "watching paint dry" simulation, I think I would have enjoyed the game better. But then again, that's just me...</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>because leveling up takeshours. Drawing takes a few minutes. You don't even have to play the game that way either, you can go through and fight everyone converting the treasure you get from them into magic afterwards. Once you get to the Islands of Heaven and Hell, you can pump yourself up to ungodly strength very quickly.

Of course I don't enjoy the battle systems in any RPG's, I much prefer real time combat, though I will admit I did enjoy the interactivity in Vagrant Story (but that's much more an Adventure game than an RPG), I still prefer Zelda style.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The character theme's definetly have much more meaning in this game than in others (though it just may be me). I have mentioned before that Julia's theme was perhaps my favorite (in the context of the game) song in the history of the series, and you hear several different versions of it including one with vocals (when Squall and Rinoa are in the Ragnorok). I liked all the music in the game, it was very fitting and help set the deep atmosphere for the title.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Yuna sounded a bit "slow", but Tidus was generally good, and Wakka was great. I liked the Wakka character simply because of how well his voice added to his overall characterization.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Yeah, I mean shit, I love games where I have to go fight 50 random battles to level up and possibly stand a chance against the boss. Systems that let you choose how to obtain your power and how to customize your strengths blow!</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Heh...amen. The sphere system in FFX was even better.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>It was the combo of the sphere system and weapon customization. It took the two aspects of the Junction system and separated them. I'm thinking of how much I enjoyed junctioning 100X death to Status-Atk in FF8 and killing everything like that (and dying once or twice when Squall got confused)</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>That might have been a witty remark if I didn't hate random battles as well... Too bad.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>It's not as common as it should be, unfortunately. It's rare to get a game like MGS where the voice acting actually immerses you into the game rather than make you cringe</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '><i>How did these people end up together? It could be fate, but it more or less seams that Cid purposely put them together because he knew about their qualities.</i>

It's easy to contrive an explanation for how it happened as it did ("fate" is a cop out though), but Don's point was that it <i>required</i> a contrived explanation; there was no natural one.

I don't know if I agree with this, but I do see his point.

<i>As for saying the plot in Final Fantasy 7 is better, there is not a single aspect in FF7 that makes the plot enjoyable to an intellectual audience.</i>

Heh. And FF8 is an intellectual story? None of the FF stories are big on intellectual stimulation. Most of what you said about FF7 can be said about all of the FFs (substituting major events in FF7 with major events in other FFs, of course).

<i>In the end, Final Fantasy 7 is a game that was created to sell to audiences of the lowest common denominator (as was Starwars and other crap like that).</i>

Reasoning?</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>I'm able to forgive nearly every one of FF VII's plot annoyances based simply on the fact that I liked a great deal of the characters. I can honestly tell you right now that I didn't like a single character from FF VIII. Not a damn one.</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>I hated Tidus at first, but the more I heard of him, the more he had kind of a Leon Scott Kennedy appeal to him. He's really a big dork, but that just makes you like him. And I agree with you on Wakka - that Hawaiian accent thing he's got actually works for him.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>My active party was Yuna, Lulu, and Wakka.

If you've played FFX, you know that the characters say things during battle. In this particular case, there was a little conversation right as the battle opened.

Yuna (imitating Wakka): "Bring it on, ya?" (or something similar to what Wakka would say)
Lulu (clearly annoyed): "Stop that."

It was at that point I realized how much the voice acting changed my perception of the characters, because an exchange like that - no matter how brief it was - would have never had that sort of effect in any of the other FF games.

Fun stuff.

As for Tidus, initially I was annoyed with him - especially his confrontation with Auron at Luca - but as it went on, I liked him more. I thought some of his acting towards the end of the game, as he's under stress and in clearly uncomfortable situations (you know what I'm talking about if you've beaten it), really made the character. Again, much more effective than previous games.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Wakka sounded just as stereotypical as Barret was in FF7. That part of it irritated me, but overall the voice acting was an excellent part of the storyline.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>FF8 also has probably the best supporting characters. I really enjoyed following the two trios that you can't control (Laguna/Kiros/Ward and Seifer/Raijin/Fujin), more so than the main characters.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>And it matters that he was stereotyped...why?</div>

<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>FF 8's plot is essentially a 35-some odd hour soap opera, with all the contrived trappings and dipshit characters one expects of the genre. It's about as "intellectual" as a fart in a bubble bath.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>Barret's character was trying way too hard to be "black". When a character is THAT stereotypical, it's irritating</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>Fart in a bubble bath... I should write that one down.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Ummm, not even close.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Yeah, I noticed that too, status effects are probably the most dangerous thing in Final Fantasy 8.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>Same thing in FFX. You tend to run away from anything that has a gas attack or confuses you.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>I was referring to Wakka in that case. I didn't see him as overly stereotyped, and it certainly didn't hurt his character at all regardless.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Yeah, I agree. I didn't even bother to play it because of that.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt arial; text-align: left; '>Umm...what exactly was stereotypical about Wakka?</div>

<div style='font: bold 9pt ; text-align: left; '>It's those damn blitzball player stereotypes. Those idiots!</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>

Actually Irvine remembered, they were among the people at the orphanage (as it does speak about others, and show them at various points throughout the game). When people junction with GF's they lose a portion of their long term memories in exchange over time, similar to that science fiction novel (Jonny something, forget the name just now). How did these people end up together? It could be fate, but it more or less seams that Cid purposely put them together because he knew about their qualities.

So if he remembered why did he take so long to say so? He was with you toward the end of CD1 but doesn't say anything until the end of CD2. It's a contrived concidence no matter how you look at it. The fact that Irvine remembers makes it even more contrived. If no one remembers at least there's a reason to not find this out until the end.

Squall never said that he hated other people or that he hated himself. I think you missed all of the build up between Squall and Rinoa throughout the game due to you "hating" Rinoa, but to say that the two characters are incapable of love is absurd. Squall's character is a caring one (you can quite easily see that by his interactions with Selphie and Zell) but he does have a cool exterior; of course since it was just his exterior personality, when Rinoa was in danger, it often was enough to shatter that.

Squall is reclusive and goes out of his way to be so. It's not that they're not capable of love it's that there was never a proper development. Saying he actually cares for people is a copout. He is totally reclusive to rest of the world and this is fact. It doesn't matter how he actually feels inside. His action speaks louder than what he may have actually felt.

Ever read about Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte? He certainly didn't conquer Europe because of his people skills; he was quite anti-social and well known for it. He conquered Europe because of his experience and military genious. In the plot it shows that Squall generally knows exactly what the hell he's doing, there wasn't much time for planning yet his military strategy worked (though he admits that there were some flaws).

Squall's limit of strategy involves knowing how to pick 2 other people in his party. He has no leadership skills whatsoever on the level of organization he was entrusted with. He never made any attempt to organize the Garden that Cid threw onto him until the battle with Galbadia. The closest thing resembling strategy Squall has is "I'll take 2 guys with me and blow up everything" (which means Selphie would've been just as good a leader).

Ultimecia's character was actually in the game from relatively early on. It was not Edea, it was actually Ultimecia who was the sorceress in the beginning, but this isn't learned until later on in the game (disk 2 if I remember correctly) when Edea tells you herself about her possession. A very important part of the plot is about Ultimecia possessing the consciousness of sorceresses going backwards in time triggering certain events to achieve her goals leading up to her main goal. She is corrupt and bent on the accumulation of power for her purposes. What else do you expect villain in a game such as Final Fantasy?

Yes it's kind of convenient that a villian was just possessed by a supreme evil being... What do I expect from a villian in Final Fantasy? Preferably someone that doesn't show up in the last moment saying, "Haha I've been responsible for everything that's going on even though there is no possible way to know!" The whole Ultimecia-Edea thing is very reminiscent of Zeromus-Golbez and it's just a cheap copout to have the villian you spend most of the game chasing turned out to be a good guy but was possessed by a evil force.

BTW I'm quite sure it's always the same people working on the plot in FF series. Also FF7 has a lot more time in development than FF8. If any game is rushed it's FF8 not FF7. It's popular to hate a popular game to be cool but just because lots of people like a game doesn't mean it makes you superior to everyone else by hating it.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Come on, you've to at least like Fujin. How can you not like Fujin?</div>

<div style='font: ; text-align: left; '>I can't remember if Fujin was the one that wouldn't shut up or the one that said one word in all capital letters. Either way, they both annoyed me.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>It was the voice, not the "blitzball player". He sounded like some bad Mexican accent, with cliches thrown in.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt Arial; text-align: left; '>The only times I've replayed it was to see the ending. Despite the lousy job they did with the characters and plot, the ending was one of the best I've ever seen in a videogame.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>...uh, yeah, Sine. Right.</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "EngraversGothic BT", "Copperplate Gothic Light"; text-align: left; '>I thought the ending kinda sucked.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Ummm, yes, it is. (My first magnificent reply was deleted, so this will have to suffice.)</div>

<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>Fujin was the one-word caps lock wonder. I can't remember if her mannerisms were ever explained. Maybe Square thought an autistic robot with a six-word vocabulary would provide needed comic relief.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt "arial narrow"; text-align: left; padding: 0% 5% 0% 5%; '>I think I liked just about every one of the main characters in FF10, with the possible exception of Yuna, but only because I thought her voice actress was terrible.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>You have not played Final Fantasy 8 then. It is definetly in no way like any Soap Opera, not even close.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>American almost anything is far superior to the soulless Japanese voice actors that can speak in 5 predefined voices and are really good at it.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I thought that is far more elegant than whatever dialogue they could've come up. :)

And her dialogue at the end of CD3 with Seifer is really good. I really like the part at the end of CD3 when they said they can't help Seifer anymore and it didn't end up with some cheap stuff like, 'You betray me too? You die!' which I'd say 99 out of 100 RPG would've used that instead to create some cheap drama.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>It's a good ending, but hard to care about an ending about main characters that suck.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt ; text-align: left; '>No less than 80% of the game buyers are not "hardcore", they couldn't care less about anything "Japanese". They want nice graphics, fast gameplay, and great sound. They also want the people to sound "normal". The only reason that we still get shitty Jap voices is that the Jap companies either don't care or don't want to spend the coin. The shitty voices have NOTHING to do with customer demands. Hell, most people here don't like it, and we're the "hardcore" group. Imagine those poeple who don't play much...</div>

<div style='font: bold 12pt Arial; text-align: left; '>I think Yuna came off as "slow" because the voice actor was concentrating more on synching with the video than her performance which hurt it. In non-CG scenes and in battle she sounded much better.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>I thought we all know that most casual gamers don't care...</div>