The Shrine

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>And by pathetic, I don't mean villians that just suck, but rather villians that you're supposed to feel sympathetic toward. Earlier today I was arguing with someone over Fate Stay Night and I was told you're supposed to sympathize with Sakura because she was abused and sexually molested as a child and no one ever helped her, so even though she tried to open the gate to hell which would result the death of a bizillion people on top of the tons she has already killed while trying to open the gate, it is somehow meant to be forgiven because of her past. And then I realized that F/SN is hardly alone in this kind of characterization. I think ever since Sephiroth in FF7 (who is responsible for way too many trends), RPGs, and indeed games, have leaned toward 'villians with a sad past'. Now there's nothing wrong with villians being more than just a being of absolute evil, but what annoys me is when games try to make it sound like you're supposed to sympathsize with someone trying to become a god or whatever because he didn't have candy when he was a little kid. Villian is someone you're supposed to hate. In what can only be described as a shallow attempt to add depth, we have the pathetic villian archtype born, and I really hate it. I want my villian to be hated. When you see Sephiroth kill Aeris you shouldn't be thinking 'well he was lied to about Jenova and everything I'm sure he has his reasons for what he did.' It's supposed to be a relief when the villian falls, not regret. It's fine for villians to have sob stories. My favorite one, Ilya, has enough messed up childhood sob stories to fill 3 RPGs, but she never attempts to pull the 'I was messed up so I can be bad' card. That is something that's truly missing in most villians I know of. Aside from the truly evil who just exists to be evil, it's almost as if villians need to pled child abuse or similar factors to justify their actions. Why? Evil should be evil just for evil's sake.

Actually, I'm reminded of Maria Balthasar in Xenogears, even though she's clearly a hero. She always talks about how she's the black wings of death to Solaris, and obviously it made no difference to her that maybe not all of Solaris is evil. Why can't villians have that kind of pride or attitude? Some villians try to do that but they borderline more on being honorable instead, and a villian that is too 'honorable' really isn't a villian at all. Generally such villians invariably gets defeated by you and end up giving you some powerful item and/or information, which makes you wonder why the said villian didn't just help you to begin with. Maybe they're still under contract to be evil?

On another note, it wouldn't hurt if villians have some class after you thwart their evil plan of whatever. I mean I don't expect them to congratulate you or anything but seriously, spare the 'how did I lose I was God!' or any equivalent of such speech. It's like every villian has their home hard-wired for self-destruct immediately after they go on a tantrum about how it's impossible for someone with their power to lose (and yet they're thoughtful enough to leave self-destruct devices!) before blowing everything up. Can we have a villian who just dies in peace?</div>

<div style='font: 11pt "Fine Hand"; text-align: left; '>On a similar but different subject, this reminds me of the complaints about the new "Battlestar Galactica". They made the Cyborgs more human and with a sad past. I wish they'd just go with pure evil baddies, a la Orcs and Goblins from LOTR.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>I get your point, but not your example of Sephiroth. It didn't make me feel sorry for him, but I thought it provided him with interesting motivation.</div>

<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>I much prefer villains that you don't feel sorry for but you could actually see what they are doing as legitamate. Like you said some villains they give way to much backstory and are insane. A villian that was molested and driven crazy isn't as scary to me as a villain that is doing what he thinks as right.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Sephyroth was essentially just an evolution of Kefka (and Ramsus could arguably be that as well since he had a similar past of being an experiment, but was much better deveoped as a character); Kefka simply was an experimental Magitek Knight who somehow went crazy because of the process, it didn't really go into much detail on that, but that explanation gave some nice background information into his character. Either way, some people found Sephyroth and Kuja to be memorable villains, but to be honest I don't really remember much of anything about either of them, probably because I did not overly enjoy their characters.

The best villain I have come accross in an RPG, that could be a difficult one to answer. Possibly Magus:
-In the past Chrono and company discover that there is a war raging on between the Mystics (led by Magus) and the humans, the humans appear to be losing, if not for the help of Chrono.
-Chrono and company go to the future and discover everything in ruins
-They discover that the future was destroyed by a beast called Lavos created by Magus in the past
-They go back to the past to confront Magus, it is discovered that he only summoned Lavos, and did not create him. The player believes he did this for the purpose of bringing ruin to the world of humanity.
-It is later discovered that Lavos was a parasitic alien creature which appeared 65M years ago.
-The quest leads to the Kingdom of Magic (roughly in the Atlantis time period) where a prophet (who you know is Magus) seems to be controlling things.
-More information is found out about Magus, in that Magus = Janus, the Prince of Zeal Kingdom
-It is eventually discovered that the goal of Magus was to summon Lavos to defeat him, but it is soon discovered that Magus was too weak for this.
-Magus then joins Chrono's party which he feels is the best way to defeat the alien creature known as Lavos.

Lavos is another example of a great villain simply because of the mystery surrounding it. At first you believe it's just a creation of Magus and then learn that he is in fact something much greater (controlling the evolution of the planet to meet its own needs).</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Well Sephiroth wasn't really a villian you feel sorry for he certainly started the trend of 'villians with a sad past'</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>The sad thing is that a lot of villians these days would be better if they're just a being of pure evil.

I really like Magus's quote in one of the CT endings, "If it is my fate to die, I must simply laugh." I like how it makes sense whether you killed him or not in 12000 BC.

Kefka had no real background. He was just insane.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>But games these day invariably sound like a psychology or court plead should you ever do anything to the villian. It's like Villian A pleads nonguilty to genocide/becoming God/great crimes against humnanity due to insanity, child abuse, or whatever bogus reasons.

And really, if the point is to sympathsize with the villians, it's easier not for a villian to have a mental breakdown and complain what problems he/she may have had before.</div>

<div style='font: 10pt verdana; text-align: left; padding: 0% 10% 0% 10%; '>What games do you have in mind when you mention this?</div>

<div style='font: 10pt Arial; text-align: left; '>If my memory serves me, Kefka was just an insane nihilist. As if that's never been done before.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt "Cooper Black"; text-align: left; '>So, why did Magus lead the war against the humans? Your plot timeline makes sense but for that. I admit that i didnt know this about Magus/CT. I havent played the game in forever, i really need to replay almost all of my games since age brings a certain understanding that a 12-16 y/o can miss.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Magus just never liked the commoners to begin with.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Of course they don't flat out and say oh you should sympathsize with villian X but the message is definitely there. FFX2 has Shuyin, Suikoden 3 has Luc, Xenosaga has Cherenkov and Albedo, and FF9 has Kuja.</div>

<div style='font: italic bold 14pt ; text-align: center; '>I don't really think it is the same with suikoden 3 though. It's not as much that he is completely insane It's more of him doing what he thinks is the only way to avoid the future he sees.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>You're definitely supposed to feel sorry for him in the ending in Suikoden 3.</div>

<div style='font: 12pt ; text-align: left; '>Don is correct, Magus saw earthbounder humans as trash. To add a little more: The Mystics found Janus/Magus as a child, a human with magical powers (and powerful ones). The Mystics and Humans were at war with one and other.</div>

<div style='font: 9pt Arial; text-align: left; '>It's hard for villains to die in peace. They always have to get something off their chest, what with being evil and all. It's especially ridiculous in Metal Gear Solid and the Dynasty Warriors series.</div>