The Shrine

Recently found the soundtrack for FF8 and it made me think about the game. While it's probably not my favorite FF I think this game has a lot of good things that I don't really see elsewhere.

1. Music is distinctive. Without commenting good or bad (though I think FF8 has one of the better OST), most of the music can be easily correlated to an area in the game, even the music I don't like.

2. Random encounters can be done away with almost right away with Encounter None.

3. The beginning of the game is actually good, or at least action-packed. While most RPGs puts you through doing pointless things in the beginning with the alleged premise that it gets better (even though it usually does not), FF8's action is actually pretty concentrated at the beginning. If the game ends at 2nd CD it'd have been perfectly fine (though Laguna's story would need some extras to take care of). You were actually actively contributing in the war effort right from the get-go.

4. The dual perspective of Laguna and Squall actually works.

5. Squall's quotes. "I dreamt I was an idiot." "Go talk to a wall." Well, this isn't something other games can learn from, but it's cool nonetheless.

If it ain't obvious, SPOILERS AHEAD!!!





FF8 generates a lot of mixed feelings. The main characters didn't really appeal to me much (probably because of the fact that I saw elements of Squall in myself and realized how pathetic it was), and a lot of plot points were just plain retarded. Together the floating buildings and the orphanage scene just about killed my suspension of belief. All the non-CG romantic moments fell flat, I thought, but I can't remember the details, so I'll chalk that up as a technological issue. I did like the whole dual perspective thing, and not surprisingly I actually enjoyed Laguna's scenes more than the main story.

Despite all the shit I just mentioned, FF8's ending is actually one of my favorites. They resolved the plot using only visual scenes and music, which really just clicked with me(the lack of inane dialogue might've had something to do with it). And to top it off, they had a cool ending credit sequence that showcased each character's personality in nice little package.

In retrospect, it was an experimental Final Fantasy, so they were bound to screw up on a lot of things. If they didn't have the balls to try and go in a different direction, FFX probably wouldn't have turned out as good as it did.

Out of 7,8,9, and 10 i think i liked 8 the best.

Well Don, you know my opinion on Final Fantasy 8. I absolutely love the game =)

The setting, industrialized society; I really find that to be interesting. The production value put into the towns and other settings was excellent, I wonder if any other RPG has seen that kind of effort put forth. The Garden's, the way the nameless characters wander the towns at random; it gives the game a really nice feel. I find the setting to be my favourite of any RPG I have ever played. I also really liked the settings in Skies of Arcadia and Chrono Trigger as well, those would be my next favourites: maybe Xenogears as well, Shevat, Solaris, Aveh, Kislev were all very cool settings.

For the characters; I didn't mind the orphanage scene. Liberi Fatali is latin for Fated Children, that is the title song of the game. It's not like it was a coincidence that they all came together in the end either, they were put there by other forces (Cid for example). It is similar to how Fei and Elly's paths were forced together by other forces (in Solaris). I also do not find that it makes the characters the same either; as many have tried to argue. It is quite obvious the characters are vastly different, more so than characters in most RPG's; to say that Zell, Squall, and Irvine, for example, are similar characters is quite ridiculous.

Still on the characters. I have always found that Squall and Laguna contrast each other quite well. I also really enjoyed the roles played by side characters such as Raine, Ellone, and Julia. I really enjoyed the whole story between Julia and Laguna and how it tied into his life and parallelled into Squall and Rinoa's relationship. I liked Squall's character, he was an asshole, true, but I liked his character all the same. I wish I could see qhat Squall would be like during a midlife crisis.

On the gameplay aspect, there are places where it can be improved; mainly a person who knows the game well will know how to become very powerful early on without much effort. This probably won't be a problem for first time players though, the problem that some people have is that they don't seem to EVER learn that drawing magic is NOT effective at all in the game; it is much easier to refine collected and bought items. I feel that this should be written somewhere in big red flashing letters, because of so many people who never seem to learn.

On the positive side: stat development is tied into the GF's (the Espers of Final Fantasy and I always liked that. The GF's could be mixed and matched among any character, there was never any reason to worry about not leveling up any character enough, or investing too much into one stat and not others. I always liked the AP system, ever since I played Final Fantasy Tactics.

Of the event sequences that happened throughout the game. I loved all of them. I generally find that the only aspect I seem to focus on in games lately is how much fun I have with them. Final Fantasy 8 is one of the very select few games I have ever played which goes beyond that. There are moments in the game where I was really moved, especially in the ending. The most moving scene for me in any game is seeing Laguna standing before the grave of Julia. I felt it was so excellently done.

Now the music, I have been posting links to MP3's for a while. I absolutely love the orchestrated style music. The piano tracks were all excellent. I don't think I can think of any game where the music fits into the settings with such excellence. Uematsu commented in his retirement from Square speech that he felt his best work was done within Final Fantasy 8, his favourite moment in a game is the very final moment of Final Fantasy 8 (which is always a favourite spot for me as well).

I won't speak much on the story other than the fact that I feel it is the best done story of any RPG currently on the market. There are so many complexities and hidden extra jewels within the plot that make me wanting to come back and re-experience, and maybe look for more. It is a quality that is unlike any other RPG that I can think of. I really feel that the writing by Nojima in this game is an absolute stroke of genius. Nojima, like Uematsu, has also said that Final Fantasy 8 is his favourite =)

Lastly, the production value of the game still manages to impress me. Chrono Trigger is the only other Square game that I can really say that about. The backgrounds, the videos, everything about it just still manages to impress me. I would like to say the same thing about FF10, but it still has an unpolished feeling to it; though some parts like the beginning, early Zanarkand, and other places (such as the lake scene) really impressed me. Final Fantasy 8, on the otherhand, is a game that impressed me from start to finish. It's the only 30+ hour RPG (besides Skies of Arcadia; Skies of Arcadia mainly because it was the only decent next-gen RPG for like 2 years, until FF10 came out) that I have played more than 3 times; and I think I have played it 6 times.

Either way, I think I will likely end up playing it again before the year is done. It seems to be an anual thing for me now, I have played it every year since its release. Similar to how I almost seem to read Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion every year or two.

I don't remember much about the locations in that game. I'd have to say that they certainly can't be worse than the average RPG because you can explore them completely free from enemy intervention. I'd have to say 10 has the best locations in the areas that actually look cool (Gagazet, Zanarkand, Bevelle). I think FF8's technology flair gives it an advantage. After you see a forest for 12301 times it really doesn't matter how good the graphics is, it's still a boring place to look at. FF8 has some relatively interesting places. For example the end of CD1 takes place in one big city instead of a dungeon or a castle, which is a refreshing break.

The main story is kind of goofy and contrived, but that's why there's Laguna and his gang. The major problem with FF8's plot was that they made Squall to be a leader even though he was not. I think when Laguna makes the speech about 'it's all for love and things like that' before doing the imposible, it really shows the difference between he and Squall. Squall just doesn't come off convincing while Laguna can recite the cliche you've seen 100 times and make it sound like it's original.

A lot of FF8's locations are towns/Garden's; I don't think there are a lot that really compare in other games. In Final Fantasy 10, Bevelle is really just a very simple location; I would like to explore it, but there's no where to go. Lucca is a nice place. I think my favourite location in FF10 is Guado City; it's small, but interesting. FF8's locations are all fairly diverse; the railroad system really adds spice to the game, as well as the Shumi constructed locations. I also find the final location of Final Fantasy 8 to be quite interesting, it reminds me of Magus's castle in Chrono Trigger which I also found to be quite interesting. My favourite location in Final Fantasy 8? I really couldn't say, I have changed my mind a lot of the time: whether it is the technological wonder of Esthar city; the comfort and stress free environment of Shumi village where technology and nature intertwine to a perfect balance; The strip in Galbadia City with the basement lounge; the Industrial center of Timber; Or the wealthy beachside town of Dollet which reminds me of a late industrial style city, one with a lot of wealth; Then there is the efficient location of Balamb Garden, the only thing it lacks are the hockey rinks and bike launchers of Galbadia Garden; Speaking of Beachside towns, I also really liked Balamb, it reminds me a lot of home.

The story seems to be played purely from the perspective of the main characters. There are a lot of things that need to be searched around for. It is interesting to know about the sorceress lineages (a sort of a highlander thing is going on; before there were several sorceress lineages, then they started combining and becoming smaller, and those that had power were more powerful than those before them. Eventually Adel was lost, that was a huge chunk of the potential sorceress power lost for all time. Ultimecia discovered time travel capabilities and found a way to save Adel's power, and incorporate the two lineages into one. She could only send matter through time by compressing time itself. Once she had all the power of the sorceresses, she would be the same as the god Hyne which the humans defeated so long ago in the past; Hyne's powers resulted in the creation of the sorceresses. Of course, that is optional information, it is not essential to the game, but adds depth to it if you want to read it. There are many locations where you can find information on the history of FF8's world; many players have written out far better bits on FF8's history than I am willing to put time into right now; if you're interested, I suggest you look around. The way I see it is again, like the Appendix of Lord of the Rings, it is not essential to the story but adds a great deal of depth to the characters and all the side stories which tie into the main story.

I don't like the whole appendix thing. Like Xenosaga you shouldn't have to go through the equivalent of a help file to find out things that obviously characters in the game would know about, like for example how Julia was killed in a car accident.

The sorceresses I could care less about, including Rinoa.

Don Wang wrote:I don't like the whole appendix thing. Like Xenosaga you shouldn't have to go through the equivalent of a help file to find out things that obviously characters in the game would know about, like for example how Julia was killed in a car accident.

The sorceresses I could care less about, including Rinoa.

Duidn't you just contradict yourself? If you don't care for the story about the history of sorceress powers and lineage, then don't you think it would be better as being something you have the option to look up rather than a direct part of the game?

No because the whole Sorceress thing is clearly an important part of the game even though I don't care about it, so it should not be an optional thing you find out.

It's like in Xenosaga when Shion talks about Virgil has the ADALEJASC disorder and you don't even know what it means (and actually it's not possible to know what it means since it's not a term that exists in the English language) and you've to look up the ingame encyclopedia to find out it means addicted to eating Realian flesh. A game should never talk about anything that seems important without explaining it. I'm no fan of author showing off all the random meaningless stuff in their world, but if it looks like something the player ought to know, they should still explain it.

Actually, the history of Hyne and the sorceress lineage isn't essential to the central plot. It is just an interesting aspect for fans of the series like myself.

Don Wang wrote:It's like in Xenosaga when Shion talks about Virgil has the ADALEJASC disorder and you don't even know what it means (and actually it's not possible to know what it means since it's not a term that exists in the English language) and you've to look up the ingame encyclopedia to find out it means addicted to eating Realian flesh. A game should never talk about anything that seems important without explaining it. I'm no fan of author showing off all the random meaningless stuff in their world, but if it looks like something the player ought to know, they should still explain it.

I disagree. Though it required some work to actually look up the stuff, it made the dialogue seem more like they weren't trying to educate you into what it meant, even though the characters know damn well what it means. You usually find such things in a lot of sci-fi, and it's kinda annoying.

It's like when you have an episode of Star Trek, and they are in a conference room discussing something, when a semi-technical phrase comes up. I know it because I'm a geek, and the crew should know it because they are in the future, where it's a somewhat common phrase for them. However, just for the purpose of educating the masses who are watching Star Trek from their trailer parks, some random crew member speaks up and says "Errr...what's a quark?", just for the purposes of education. For futuristic words/phrases that nobody in present day would know about, it's a necessary evil, but it kinda destroys that frame of reality that a sci-fi is supposed to build up and reminds you that it's still a show with people watching it in the present day.

With Xenosaga, since it was a video game, you had the option of leaving the dialogue "unaltered" and put in the education in the encyclopedia. This would be something you couldn't do on TV, since it would require another media or just too much work for the average viewer to bother with.

I felt the addition of an encyclopedia in the first episode of Xenosaga was a great idea. I'm a fan of the series, and so I like to look these things up when I have the time and curiosity to look them up. I actually wish this would become a commonplace in RPG's.

Keep the encyclopoedia, thats fine, it should be there to refresh yourself or help you remember something, but not as the ONLY place you can find important information. I agree with Don, they should tell you important details in the dialogue then they can stick in the encyclopedia for you to look at again later.

Well whoever come up with something isn't writing for an audience in whatever fantasy world they had in mind. The audience belongs to this world. It's one thing people shouldn't go overboard on explanation which becomes more like a showoff of all the random facts you know. A good example of that would be HXH when the author feels compelled to explain every single animal-soldier's behavior patterns and how it affects the fight even though it's stuff only a zoologist would care about. Kenshin is another good example, when you've people who obviously have no physics knowledge talking about how the double jump was possible if you get a new force going during the apex of a jump where gravity and the jumping up force cancels out leaving you with a net force of 0. Here the explanation is merely for the sake of explaining, and indeed is more like showing off rather than having any relevance to what's going on.

You don't need to say 'we got this Tachyon beam and it uses negatively massed theoractical particles to do damage.' It is enough to infer from the context that whenever you see one of these things it's usually meant to blow stuff up. No one needs to know how folding dimensions work to understand that a HyperDrive in Star Wars gets you from one place to another place way faster than lightspeed. And if it's something that's impossible to infer from the context, then it better be explained. In the Xenosaga example, there is absolutely no way you can infer that Virgil is addicted to eating Realian flesh because he has some random acronym disorder, and yet it is quite relevant to what's going on (explains how he knows so much about Realiens and treats them like second-class citizens). An example of what works in the same game is when they talked about how they need an AAA encryption thingy to prove their innocence. No one knows what the heck goes in an AAA encryptation thingy but you can obviously tell that it's really really secure, and if you feel like reading the extra babble they've in the encyclopedia about just how good the AAA encryption is you can if you choose, but you're not missing out if you did not read it.

Either way; I still consider FF8 to be the best RPG developed by Square. So does Nojima, the scenario writer. I know Uematsu has been known to be shifty on his opinions over time, but in his last interview he also stated that FF8 was his favourite. So I know I am not alone in my opinion.

Do you need validation from others to be happy with your decision?

Whether I am happy or not is irrelivant. It gives a lot of weight to my statement that Final Fantasy 8 is the best if it is the favourite of the people who created it.

I dont think there is any right or wrong answer when it comes to what FF someone considers the best, it is pure opinion. If your opinion is FF8 is the best and i think 6 is, those guys' opnions wont sway my choice...

I think that different people will like different FF games based on the type of gamer they are.

FF7, I find that most of these fans are on the internet, I don't know where they live or what they do in real life (except this one guy I know called Steve, and well Steve is a computer geek who somehow flunked out of high school has worked the last 7 years at the bottle exchange center). Most people I meet are fans of FFX, those who are into gaming more will say FFIII or FF8. I have also found that the people who I know who are FF8 fans are limited to University students and doctors (yeah, doctors all love videogames). FFIII fans are somewhat universal, they are everywhere, similar to the FFX fans, but not in as great numbers. I hardly ever find FFX fans online, but I find lots of FF7 fans (probably because of the boards I go to), I find lots of FFX fans in RL but hardly any FF7 fans.

I think it is because people look at different things in games; FFIII fans will look at something fun and easy to move through, FF8 fans are people who like a more sophisticated type game, FFX fans, well, I can't really analyze them yet since it is the most recent FF game. FF7 fans don't really exist, they are computer generated scripts which post on a select few messageboards across the internet.

The Seeker wrote:FF7 fans don't really exist, they are computer generated scripts which post on a select few messageboards across the internet.

Hah!

Seeker made a funny.

The Seeker wrote:I think that different people will like different FF games based on the type of gamer they are.

FF7, I find that most of these fans are on the internet, I don't know where they live or what they do in real life (except this one guy I know called Steve, and well Steve is a computer geek who somehow flunked out of high school has worked the last 7 years at the bottle exchange center). Most people I meet are fans of FFX, those who are into gaming more will say FFIII or FF8. I have also found that the people who I know who are FF8 fans are limited to University students and doctors (yeah, doctors all love videogames). FFIII fans are somewhat universal, they are everywhere, similar to the FFX fans, but not in as great numbers. I hardly ever find FFX fans online, but I find lots of FF7 fans (probably because of the boards I go to), I find lots of FFX fans in RL but hardly any FF7 fans.

I think it is because people look at different things in games; FFIII fans will look at something fun and easy to move through, FF8 fans are people who like a more sophisticated type game, FFX fans, well, I can't really analyze them yet since it is the most recent FF game. FF7 fans don't really exist, they are computer generated scripts which post on a select few messageboards across the internet.

That has got to be the worst analysis i think i have ever read. I love it how you think FF8 fans are educated and sphisticated. That game, while fun and maybe #3 on my list of FF's, had the most basic and easy to abuse lvling system and was among one of the most linear FF's to date.

I like the story and the characters, so it made a good e-book, not much more.

Flip wrote:

The Seeker wrote:I think that different people will like different FF games based on the type of gamer they are.

FF7, I find that most of these fans are on the internet, I don't know where they live or what they do in real life (except this one guy I know called Steve, and well Steve is a computer geek who somehow flunked out of high school has worked the last 7 years at the bottle exchange center). Most people I meet are fans of FFX, those who are into gaming more will say FFIII or FF8. I have also found that the people who I know who are FF8 fans are limited to University students and doctors (yeah, doctors all love videogames). FFIII fans are somewhat universal, they are everywhere, similar to the FFX fans, but not in as great numbers. I hardly ever find FFX fans online, but I find lots of FF7 fans (probably because of the boards I go to), I find lots of FFX fans in RL but hardly any FF7 fans.

I think it is because people look at different things in games; FFIII fans will look at something fun and easy to move through, FF8 fans are people who like a more sophisticated type game, FFX fans, well, I can't really analyze them yet since it is the most recent FF game. FF7 fans don't really exist, they are computer generated scripts which post on a select few messageboards across the internet.

That has got to be the worst analysis i think i have ever read. I love it how you think FF8 fans are educated and sphisticated. That game, while fun and maybe #3 on my list of FF's, had the most basic and easy to abuse lvling system and was among one of the most linear FF's to date.

I like the story and the characters, so it made a good e-book, not much more.

All Final Fantasy games have easy to abuse leveling systems, it's called walking back and forth. FF8 just has a different way of going about it. I also wouldn't call it the most basic system when it is obvious that FF1 is the most basic. I also would not call it the most linear FF game either; that is obviously not the case. FF8 is the only FF game that I can think of that has a multi-threaded plot; it also has more side quests and side plots than any of the other FF games before it.

I'll admit that I only played FF8 once (and I did like it), but I thought FF7 had more subquests/plots. Compared to FF7, FF8 seemed to have a lot of gaps in the plot. You should read the plot analysis of both games on GameFAQs.

There is a very long, and completely speculative, time theory on who is Ultimecia, but unlike Chrono Cross, this isn't actually explained well in the game. The conclusions are very interesting, though.

About how Ultimecia is Rinoa, or something like that. As far as the game is concerned, Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future; she sent her consciousness back in time for a certain goal. There is also another one about a time loop that I have heard of. In my opinion these are just created by "fans" who do not quite have a full grasp of the story, and want some ridiculous comicbook like drama to cheese the thing up more than is necessary. It is still an interesting read though if you are into that sort of stuff (I obviously am not =P). There are A TON of fan fictions based on those two theories. There are also a lot which attempt to link up FF8 with the real world and with other FF games. FF8 fans may not be common on the Internet, but when you find their websites, you learn that they are indeed quite dedicated. Final Fantasy 7, 8, X, and III each have their own sets of theories by their fans. Anyways, when Nojima wrote this one, he said he wrote it the way he felt a plot should go, without dumbing it down for the general audience; he is aware that it was unpopular among certain groups of people, but still maintains that it is his best work (at least by the time of his retirement interviews last year; he is still in the industry, just no longer working for Square).

I actually quite like the sorceress story as is in the game without any additional baseless speculation on the plot:

As history goes, The God Hyne split his powers among several different sorceresses after his defeat. Each sorceress passes her powers down to a suitable heir for the next generation. Over time these powers became combined until there were only two known sorceresses left by Adel's time. Adel, the more powerful of the two, dissappeared leaving only a single sorceress, Edea. Edea's power passed down to Rinoa, who would eventually pass it down to Ultimecia.

Ultimecia was the only sorceress in her time, but she did not have as much power as she could have had. She sent her consciousness back in time using a machine developed by Doctor Odine. The problem with that time machine is that she could only send it back to a time period where that time machine actually existed, which was slightly before Squall's time. With her consciousness, Ultimecia possessed Sorceress Edea and attempted to find a specific girl; Ellone.

Ellone had a power to send the consciousness of a person back in time; the power is what Dr. Odine's time machine was based off of. She used this power in several instances to send Squall and co back in time to attempt to change history, to change it so Laguna would not go and rescue her, but rather stay with Raine and their child (who we all know is Squall). She failed in this quest, but it was all a partof the pattern of time, because due to her interference, all of the events which did happened occured as they were supposed to. This was because along with the consciousness of Squall and Co, the power of their GF's also went back with them; Laguna even said that it was due to that power that he did what he did.

Once Edea was defeated she possessed Rinoa, the heir which Edea chose. This was more of a desperation manuever, but as it turned out, things worked exactly to Ultimecia's plan. She had discovered where Adel was through Rinoa's memories. Ultimecia then gave orders to Seifer to use the Lunatic Pandora at a certain location to cause a Lunar tear. The purpose of this Lunar tear was to bring Sorceress Adel's body down from its prison in outer space into the possession of Seifer. At the same time, under the control of Rinoa, Ultimecia made her way to Adel's prison and possessed the cryogenically frozen Adel. The Lunar tear hit and Adel possessed by Ultimecia dropped right into the Lunatic Pandora.

Squall and co venture into the Lunatic Pandora to fight Ultimecia/Adel, it is at this point that Ultimecia demonstrates that she has the power to directly absorb another sorceresses power into her own. She fails. Immediately upon the death of Adel, Ultimecia sends her consciousness into Rinoa's body. Now Ultimecia's original plan was to use time compression to bring Adel's body to Ultimecia's body where she would absorb all the power and become essentially a God.

Squall and Co needed to do what they were bred and trained for, defeat Ultimecia. Coincidently the one way to do that was by travelling through time using the time compression spell which Ultimecia had devised. So when Ultimecia possessed Rinoa upon Adel's death, Ellone sent her back in time to when Adel was young. Ultimecia using the more powerful sorceresses power, cast the time compression spell and that allowed Squall and co to make it to the future where they would battle and kill Ultimecia ending the threat to the world once and for all.

The Seeker wrote:I think it is because people look at different things in games; FFIII fans will look at something fun and easy to move through, FF8 fans are people who like a more sophisticated type game, FFX fans, well, I can't really analyze them yet since it is the most recent FF game. FF7 fans don't really exist, they are computer generated scripts which post on a select few messageboards across the internet.

So the people who agree with you have sophisticated tastes, and those that like what you don't like are mere pedestrians. Brilliant.

FF8 is more about two group of people, the present (Squall) and the past (Laguna). You don't have anything like FF7 where it's like 'now we'll tell you why Red 13 is important, so put him in your party and see'. While it can be argued that none of FF8's present team was at all well-developed, they flow well as a team. Whenever one of them has something to say it didn't give me the impression 'where did you come from'. While the game is pretty detached from character development I think it manages to capture their personality pretty well. The exception is of course Rinoa, whose existence wouldn't even have meaning if you just don't put her in the main party.