The Shrine

So I finally had time to check out discussion on Fate: Hollow Ataraxia and after reading some stuff on a Chinese board, I came to realize that I missed one of the big plot twists. It's not the first time I've missed something due to being lazy, so no problem, I go back to the game and see why I missed something that was so important. Reread the 3 important arcs leading to the final plot twist and still don't see how it possibly make sense because none of the girls reacted in a way that'd tell you that the main character of this story was actually Angra Mainyu, the dark being of supreme evil trying to become Shirou Emiya to inherit his harem, as opposed to Shirou Emiya trying to recover his harem while slowly being corrupted by the being of supreme evil (which is the conclusion anyone who played the first game would've come to about 30 minutes into the game).

So I went through the final scenes again and sure enough, I missed the lines where Angra Mainyu revealed that his master plan was to become Shirou Emiya so he can have a harem just like our hero (being the supreme dark being isn't very popular with ladies, apparently), and since the girls showed him a good time during his masquerade as Shirou Emiya he has no regrets and will stop being evil and even resurrect all the valiant guys and girls who gave their life trying to stop him in the first game as a parting gift. Oh yeah and almost all the girls knew that the Shirou Emiya was Angra Mainyu all along and had absolutely no problem with dating/sleeping/have sex with a being many died in the first game to try to put away. I guess they all figured make love, not war was the way to defeat the darkness.

This wouldn't be so bad if Fate:HA simply sucked as a piece of writing. On the contrary the romantic scenes in this game is absolutely brilliant. The Dress of the Stars arc can easily be the Aeris death scene of this generation of gaming. It's like plot twist exists for the sake of being a 'gotcha' because it certainly didn't exist because the author lacked ability. Maybe it gives the author some kind of power trip knowing that he outsmarted his readers.

I haven't read books in a long time but I don't remember any good book I read I was so impressed because it made absolutely no sense. Sure there are books with plot twists that I didn't see coming, but if it's a good book then the plot twist is supposed to make sense when all the unknowns are known. Being predictable, it seems, is a sin in the realm of gaming/anime/manga writing. Sure, being predictable is boring, but it is better than not making any sense.

Oh well, at least I still have Shining Force Neo to finish, which, so far, has been totally predictable and quite an enjoyable journey. Now if it turns out Meryl is actually Vandolf's sister from a parallel universe, then I'll be back to complain some more!

Reminds me of that plot twist in Blade 3, where the new kid revealed that he was actually working for the vampires, and Blade goes "yeah, I already knew that." Doesn't really add anything and just pisses the audience off for not showing any foreshadowing to that effect.

Terranigma and FF7 are the only games where there is a plot twist that you probably can't see coming but ultimately make sense. Terranigma being that you've been working for the Underworld all this time and the hints are where you started from and how progress isn't making everything better. FF7 being the whole Cloud/Zack thing, which I don't think is possible to forsee ahead of time but there's enough inconsistency in Cloud's flashbacks so that the explanation is plausible.

Don Wang wrote:Terranigma and FF7 are the only games where there is a plot twist that you probably can't see coming but ultimately make sense. Terranigma being that you've been working for the Underworld all this time and the hints are where you started from and how progress isn't making everything better. FF7 being the whole Cloud/Zack thing, which I don't think is possible to forsee ahead of time but there's enough inconsistency in Cloud's flashbacks so that the explanation is plausible.

All plot twists make sense (particularly in stories which lack much continuity), the one you described in Terranigma "working for the bad guys" exists in many games and TV shows. Plot twists are most often cheap devices used to impress very young audiences; that is why they appear so frequently in TV shows that are at least partially directed or whole directed towards children. A story which uses a plot twist well is one whose plot does not depend on the twist for much or any of the enjoyment factor of the actual story.

Of course 'working for the bad guys' isn't anything new but Terranigma isn't exactly like "yes you must do the trial of XYZ and oops that was the only thing stopping the evil guys from taking over the world! You lose!"

You don't have to know everything that's going on in the story but when you find out it should make sense. Having a guy with 7 backup plans to destroy the world doesn't make sense, for example.

The Seeker wrote:All plot twists make sense (particularly in stories which lack much continuity), the one you described in Terranigma "working for the bad guys" exists in many games and TV shows. Plot twists are most often cheap devices used to impress very young audiences; that is why they appear so frequently in TV shows that are at least partially directed or whole directed towards children. A story which uses a plot twist well is one whose plot does not depend on the twist for much or any of the enjoyment factor of the actual story.

So, The Unusual Suspects and any of Night's movies are for children?

SineSwiper wrote: So, The Unusual Suspects and any of Night's movies are for children?

If he continues on his current path, yeah. The twist in the Sixth Sense was good, but it lost its effect since he decided to work one into every one of his movies from then on. If M. Night wants to surprise audiences he should make a movie with a conventional ending. Surprise endings only work if you're not expecting them.

I've found that when you can tell the game/whatever is trying to surprise you, you just take the outcome that makes the least sense and you'll usually be right. Thus it is still predictable, only it doesn't even make sense.

For example, one time in high school in my English class we were asked to rewrite Macbeth (I think, it's a Shakespeare play where some guy's father was killed while the prince was away) in small groups, and every group came up with the idea that the king faked his death to see if his wife is faithful or not!

There's a Chinese proverb that says the most dangerous place is also the safest place. The most unlikely plot, too, is often the most likely plot.

SineSwiper wrote:So, The Unusual Suspects and any of Night's movies are for children?

The Usual Suspects is a mystery/suspense movie which involves discovering the identity of Kaiser Soze. Just because the identity was an unlikely person does not mean it is a plot twist; nothing in the plot was really twisted around. Unlike say The Sixth Sense where the plot was twisted around; and I considered it a VERY cheap device in that movie.

I thought the plot device in the Unusual Suspects was a cheap plot device because there was no foreshadowing whatsoever, and it was practically the whole point of the movie. Sixth Sense was good because the idea fit the actions and behaviors. (After that and Unbreakable, Night started to insult his audience's intelligence...)

It works in The Usual Suspects because it's meant to show just how much of a genius Soze is.
Spoiler: There wasn't any foreshadowing because Soze wouldn't drop any hints about himself throughout his BS story.

The only other hints the movie dropped were very subtle. Upon repeat viewings, you tend to notice that the camera lingers on Kevin Spacey in certain scenes, like when he's looking at the buletin board or at the bottom of the coffee cup.

SineSwiper wrote:I thought the plot device in the Unusual Suspects was a cheap plot device because there was no foreshadowing whatsoever, and it was practically the whole point of the movie. Sixth Sense was good because the idea fit the actions and behaviors. (After that and Unbreakable, Night started to insult his audience's intelligence...)

There was tons of hints, just very subtle. It's kinda like the whole "I'm Tyler" twist in Fight Club and the twist in Identity, you just don't see it the first time. I caught the Usual Suspects one about 5 minutes before it was revealed.

Sixth Sense was also very well done (as Sine said) and Unbreakable had a great ending for a blah film, but Signs blew super amounts of chunks and I don't even want to know how bad The Village sucks. That one is in the Pearl Harbor "you know there's no possibility of it being good" category. Nothing anyone has told me would suggest otherwise.

FF7 had a good twist? I've always harped on the gameplay and scripting, but the story was pretty decent. Just not really good in the "twist" factor.

Torgo wrote:If he continues on his current path, yeah. The twist in the Sixth Sense was good, but it lost its effect since he decided to work one into every one of his movies from then on. If M. Night wants to surprise audiences he should make a movie with a conventional ending. Surprise endings only work if you're not expecting them.

Isn't that what Signs was? The surprise was that there really were aliens? I didn't see the movie because I thought the entire premise was retarded. (Crop circles are documented hoaxes.)

I don't consider it cheap in the Sixth Sense. He doesn't actually interact with anyone in the movie other than the kid, and if you're paying attention, you can figure it out. (I think my mother did.) Similar thing with Fight Club. The mark of a good plot twist is that upon a repeat viewing or reading, events and character's reactions make more sense knowing the twist. It's evident how brilliant the acting in Fight Club is once you know what's going on. The scenes between Helena Bonham Carter and Edward Norton take on a different dimension once you know what motivates each character.

Kupek wrote:The mark of a good plot twist is that upon a repeat viewing or reading, events and character's reactions make more sense knowing the twist. It's evident how brilliant the acting in Fight Club is once you know what's going on. The scenes between Helena Bonham Carter and Edward Norton take on a different dimension once you know what motivates each character.

Total agreement here.

Fight Club is a movie where it actually works, because knowing what the plot twist is will not ruin the movie. In fact, the second time watching it is better than the first because you know what is going on; there is so much more to think about and pay attention to. Not knowing the deal with Fight Club, it is a different movie with the same characters and events.

Of course, in the end all of this is simply from each of our own point of views. We live in different worlds examining the same things.

Kupek wrote:Isn't that what Signs was? The surprise was that there really were aliens? I didn't see the movie because I thought the entire premise was retarded. (Crop circles are documented hoaxes.)

No, aliens were already showing up about halfway through the movie. The surprise was just as retarded though: the aliens weakness was water. Fucking water. The goddamn planet is 80% water, not to mention all of that water vapor.

SineSwiper wrote:

Kupek wrote:Isn't that what Signs was? The surprise was that there really were aliens? I didn't see the movie because I thought the entire premise was retarded. (Crop circles are documented hoaxes.)

No, aliens were already showing up about halfway through the movie. The surprise was just as retarded though: the aliens weakness was water. Fucking water. The goddamn planet is 80% water, not to mention all of that water vapor.

It is funny how a race which has developed the technology to successfully invade the planet Earth did not think to invent rain coats.