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God, I hope this doesn't come true

PostPosted:Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:43 pm
by Zeus
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/672/672467p1.html

I can understand the need to keep them out of children's hands, but this would be the first step to limiting game content sold in the US. They would just go too far and it would mean less new games for all of us.

PostPosted:Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:36 am
by Julius Seeker
I don't see how this will mean less new games for everyone. Does an enforced law against selling R-rated movies to minors mean less violent movies for all of us? It also doesn't effect children either if they have cool parents.

PostPosted:Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:14 am
by SineSwiper
All we need is Tipper Gore to step in and the trifecta of censorship would be complete!

PostPosted:Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:55 pm
by Zeus
The Seeker wrote:I don't see how this will mean less new games for everyone. Does an enforced law against selling R-rated movies to minors mean less violent movies for all of us? It also doesn't effect children either if they have cool parents.
Once you have federal legistlation in place to police something that the majority of idiots believes is strictly for children you get all these "mature" games falling by the wayside since places like Walmart won't carry them due to the limited audience and the threat of being sued.

This would be the worst thing in the world for games. Kiss ANYTHING non-Nintendo/Disney goodbye

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:02 am
by Julius Seeker
Who buys games from Walmart except parents and kids anyways?

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:40 am
by Eric
Walmart is pretty huge dude, stores all over the country and the electronics section sells.

If you remove ALL of those stores from the equation companies WILL shift from making certain games because they won't have certain stores selling them, it's not just limited to Warlmart, you'd see other stores potentially do it as well.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:25 am
by Julius Seeker
Hmmmm, I didn't know that. I think I did read somewhere that in the US at least, Walmart is a fairly major distributor of movies and music albums. It's a bit different in Canada, Future Shop's movie/Videogame section is easily ten times as large as Walmart's. I am not sure if there is anything like Futureshop in the US. I guess in the US, stores like Walmart have the monopoly on everything.

Also, Zeus, you are HEAVILY overstating things. More than just Nintendo refrains from M-rated titles (and Nintendo has a couple); Square, Enix, Sega, and Namco all don't make M-rated games either. Also, do you honestly believe Capcom will stop making Resident Evil games, and Rockstar will stop making Grand Theft Auto games if Walmart won't carry them?

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:41 am
by Chris
there is something like future shop in the us. it's called future shop. I used to shop there all the time for stuff. so instead we're left with Fry's Best Buy, Circuit City and places like that

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:47 am
by Eric
The Seeker wrote:Hmmmm, I didn't know that. I think I did read somewhere that in the US at least, Walmart is a fairly major distributor of movies and music albums. It's a bit different in Canada, Future Shop's movie/Videogame section is easily ten times as large as Walmart's. I am not sure if there is anything like Futureshop in the US. I guess in the US, stores like Walmart have the monopoly on everything.

Also, Zeus, you are HEAVILY overstating things. More than just Nintendo refrains from M-rated titles (and Nintendo has a couple); Square, Enix, Sega, and Namco all don't make M-rated games either. Also, do you honestly believe Capcom will stop making Resident Evil games, and Rockstar will stop making Grand Theft Auto games if Walmart won't carry them?
Well it's not just a question of Walmart carrying them.

Blood and Gore and Violence in video games are in. If you say "You make this type of game and we won't tell it", it won't matter if it's IN or not because the masses won't be able to purchase it.

If the masses don't purchase it, it would limit the drive to make such games, your Resident Evils, your GTAs, etc.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:56 am
by SineSwiper
Seeker, you forget that when Hot Coffee was discovered and there was all of this bullshit, Rockstar didn't really care. When the rating changed, Rockstar had to hurry up and remove those elements in the game. Why? Walmart doesn't carry AO games. That's really the only reason.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:44 pm
by Chris
SineSwiper wrote:Seeker, you forget that when Hot Coffee was discovered and there was all of this bullshit, Rockstar didn't really care. When the rating changed, Rockstar had to hurry up and remove those elements in the game. Why? Walmart doesn't carry AO games. That's really the only reason.
most places don't. EB doesn't my store doesn't the only place to get things like that are more local specialty shops when it goes AO

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:22 pm
by SineSwiper
Chris Hansbrough wrote:most places don't. EB doesn't my store doesn't the only place to get things like that are more local specialty shops when it goes AO
Good AO games won't get made if AO games don't get put on the shelves, because good AO games aren't made, because AO games don't get put on the shelves.

That kind of shit pisses me off. Just like NC-17 movies.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:01 pm
by Zeus
SineSwiper wrote:
Chris Hansbrough wrote:most places don't. EB doesn't my store doesn't the only place to get things like that are more local specialty shops when it goes AO
Good AO games won't get made if AO games don't get put on the shelves, because good AO games aren't made, because AO games don't get put on the shelves.

That kind of shit pisses me off. Just like NC-17 movies.
If you get federal enforcement, companies like Walmart will get scared of games that are the NC-17 equivalent, thus they won't get made. Do you honestly think a federal enforcement agency is going to be as lax on the ratings as a self-regulated one?

If it happens, kiss ANY game like GTA goodye. RE would be censored to keep it down below what will likely be strict standards (ie. today's Teen would become Mature).

The gov't (and a lot of bible-thumping, ignorant idiots) hasn't come down on the movie industry 'cause it believes that some movies are for adults and shouldn't be seen by children. Thus, you get adult movies and porn and such, just not in Walmart. The mentality isn't the same for games. For a lot of these ignorant idiots, they're for children only. Thus, they should be regulated as such. This is where guys like Thompson get involved.

This is what we should all be worried about, the idiotic mentality of a bunch of ignorant morons who just happen to be powerful people.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:42 pm
by SineSwiper
Well, I think everybody is overreacting. There are bills proposed about making fucking the dead illegal while eating ice cream. It's the land of crazy ideas, but only a few of them make it.

PostPosted:Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:31 am
by Julius Seeker
Zeus wrote:If you get federal enforcement, companies like Walmart will get scared of games that are the NC-17 equivalent, thus they won't get made. Do you honestly think a federal enforcement agency is going to be as lax on the ratings as a self-regulated one?

If it happens, kiss ANY game like GTA goodye. RE would be censored to keep it down below what will likely be strict standards (ie. today's Teen would become Mature).
What proof do you have to offer that any of this will happen? In fact, I think the opposite will happen, what was 1985's Rated R, is todays PG-13. How does that translate into what is todays T rating is tommorows M rating?
Zeus wrote:The gov't (and a lot of bible-thumping, ignorant idiots) hasn't come down on the movie industry 'cause it believes that some movies are for adults and shouldn't be seen by children. Thus, you get adult movies and porn and such, just not in Walmart. The mentality isn't the same for games. For a lot of these ignorant idiots, they're for children only. Thus, they should be regulated as such. This is where guys like Thompson get involved.

This is what we should all be worried about, the idiotic mentality of a bunch of ignorant morons who just happen to be powerful people.
I also disagree with this statement. The law trying to be passed isn't one that regulates all games because they think games are only for children; it regulates the slaes of games towards minors (which is reasonable, since everything else is regulated towards minors as well). Regulating games towards minors is actually an aknowledgement that games aren't only for children, but that there is a distinction between games that can be bought by children, and those that can only be bought by adults. Tell me why a child should be allowed to by Grand Theft Auto III and not the movie Terminator III? Or Resident Evil but not 28 Days Later? It is not limiting parents from buying those games for their kids, just limiting kids from buying them for themselves. Remember, it is not legal for alcohol to be purchased by minors, Walmart doesn't carry it either, but it still sells quite well around the world.

PostPosted:Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:38 pm
by Zeus
The Seeker wrote:
Zeus wrote:If you get federal enforcement, companies like Walmart will get scared of games that are the NC-17 equivalent, thus they won't get made. Do you honestly think a federal enforcement agency is going to be as lax on the ratings as a self-regulated one?

If it happens, kiss ANY game like GTA goodye. RE would be censored to keep it down below what will likely be strict standards (ie. today's Teen would become Mature).
What proof do you have to offer that any of this will happen? In fact, I think the opposite will happen, what was 1985's Rated R, is todays PG-13. How does that translate into what is todays T rating is tommorows M rating?
Zeus wrote:The gov't (and a lot of bible-thumping, ignorant idiots) hasn't come down on the movie industry 'cause it believes that some movies are for adults and shouldn't be seen by children. Thus, you get adult movies and porn and such, just not in Walmart. The mentality isn't the same for games. For a lot of these ignorant idiots, they're for children only. Thus, they should be regulated as such. This is where guys like Thompson get involved.

This is what we should all be worried about, the idiotic mentality of a bunch of ignorant morons who just happen to be powerful people.
I also disagree with this statement. The law trying to be passed isn't one that regulates all games because they think games are only for children; it regulates the slaes of games towards minors (which is reasonable, since everything else is regulated towards minors as well). Regulating games towards minors is actually an aknowledgement that games aren't only for children, but that there is a distinction between games that can be bought by children, and those that can only be bought by adults. Tell me why a child should be allowed to by Grand Theft Auto III and not the movie Terminator III? Or Resident Evil but not 28 Days Later? It is not limiting parents from buying those games for their kids, just limiting kids from buying them for themselves. Remember, it is not legal for alcohol to be purchased by minors, Walmart doesn't carry it either, but it still sells quite well around the world.
Proof? Well, here's two things to prove the point:

1) How many AO rated games are being sold in Walmart or any other big chain right now?
2) Two words: Hot Coffee (ie. game was pulled then redone so it wouldn't receive the AO rating)

I only wish that this was the mentality of these lawmakers. The ONLY time games make it to the mass news is when there's a launch or when there's a crime involving children/teens who at one point might have played a game. I used to own a store and go to my bud's EB ALL the time, do you know how many adults in their 30's and 40's think games are a kid's thing? It's much more than we, as gamers who have grown with the industry, want it to be. And as everyone knows, politics (and law) is (are) extremely resistant to change and is always behind the times. And considering how Liebermann has been involved with the games censoring since Night Trap (and thus has the old mentality), you can bet it's a very bad thing if the federal gov't gets involved.

Again, there's no federal insistence on regulating the movie industry, which shows a helluva lot worse stuff than the games that are being villified (Bulletproof and Grand Theft Auto). How many times do we see police being shot in movies? Tons. You can do it in GTA and all of a sudden all hell breaks loose in the minds of Democrats and bible thumpers.

Trust me, this is a very bad thing if it ever goes through.

PostPosted:Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:32 pm
by Imakeholesinu
Seriously though, this is to protect the kids but the parents are usually there buying the titles for the kids anyway, so how is this law really protecting the kids? How do most of these games end up in minor's possession? They didn't buy it because they get carded at retailers now so they either "Hey Mr." it or the parents buy it for them since they don't know/don't care about the rating system in place or what it means. Naturally, I don't think most parents give two shits about what their kids play (though mine did) but they still got them for us and let us rent them anyway.

This law does absolutely nothing and will be shot down as unconstitutional just like in St. Louis County and Indianapolis.

PostPosted:Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:04 pm
by Julius Seeker
Zeus wrote:Proof? Well, here's two things to prove the point:

1) How many AO rated games are being sold in Walmart or any other big chain right now?
None, but it's not even at all relevent to the article. It is about a law preventing minors from purchasing games with a 17 and up rating; not about whether or not Adult Only games should be sold at Wal-Mart, that was never an issue.
Zeus wrote:2) Two words: Hot Coffee (ie. game was pulled then redone so it wouldn't receive the AO rating)
How is this relevent at all? If the game received an M-rating, then children still wouldn't be able to buy it. It would have just received the rating so that it could be sold at Wal-mart.

Zeus wrote:I only wish that this was the mentality of these lawmakers. The ONLY time games make it to the mass news is when there's a launch or when there's a crime involving children/teens who at one point might have played a game.
Games also make it to the mass news when they sell phenominally well. But why else should they make it to the mass news?

Zeus wrote:I used to own a store and go to my bud's EB ALL the time, do you know how many adults in their 30's and 40's think games are a kid's thing? It's much more than we, as gamers who have grown with the industry, want it to be. And as everyone knows, politics (and law) is (are) extremely resistant to change and is always behind the times.
Do these new laws not acknowledge that there are games that should only be purchased by adults?

Zeus wrote:And considering how Liebermann has been involved with the games censoring since Night Trap (and thus has the old mentality), you can bet it's a very bad thing if the federal gov't gets involved.
This still does not prove anything you said above. Also, Walmart, to my knowledge, has never caried AO games. If I remember correctly, they used to not carry M-rated games either, but they do now.

Zeus wrote:Again, there's no federal insistence on regulating the movie industry, which shows a helluva lot worse stuff than the games that are being villified (Bulletproof and Grand Theft Auto). How many times do we see police being shot in movies? Tons. You can do it in GTA and all of a sudden all hell breaks loose in the minds of Democrats and bible thumpers.

Trust me, this is a very bad thing if it ever goes through.
Huh? The movie industry has been regulated for decades. And the story behind the NBK copycat murders was A LOT bigger than this whole Grand Theft Auto thing. It still didn't make much difference. Same deal with the Goldeneye/Doom and Columbine thing, in fact, it seems FPS titles have gained A LOT of popularity since then. I still do not see how any of this is relevent either.

What this is, is a law which prevents children from buying excessively violent games, and games with sexual content which has ALWAYS been deemed unsuitable for children. In fact, society is much more lax about it now than it was ever before. There is no way this law will end Grand Theft Auto or Resident Evil. Walmart will still carry them, there is nothing to indicate that they won't. Either way, if Walmart doesn't carry Product A which is in demand, but Futureshop does carry it, then people will buy product A from Futureshop instead. Similar to how they buy cars from car dealerships, and not from Walmart; or alcohol from liquor stores, and not from Walmart.

PostPosted:Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:07 pm
by Julius Seeker
Barret wrote:Seriously though, this is to protect the kids but the parents are usually there buying the titles for the kids anyway, so how is this law really protecting the kids? How do most of these games end up in minor's possession? They didn't buy it because they get carded at retailers now so they either "Hey Mr." it or the parents buy it for them since they don't know/don't care about the rating system in place or what it means. Naturally, I don't think most parents give two shits about what their kids play (though mine did) but they still got them for us and let us rent them anyway.

This law does absolutely nothing and will be shot down as unconstitutional just like in St. Louis County and Indianapolis.
I bought dozens upon dozens of games when I was a kid. What is unconstitutional about regulating porn and excessively violent material from minors?

PostPosted:Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:29 am
by Zeus
The Seeker wrote: What this is, is a law which prevents children from buying excessively violent games, and games with sexual content which has ALWAYS been deemed unsuitable for children. In fact, society is much more lax about it now than it was ever before. There is no way this law will end Grand Theft Auto or Resident Evil. Walmart will still carry them, there is nothing to indicate that they won't. Either way, if Walmart doesn't carry Product A which is in demand, but Futureshop does carry it, then people will buy product A from Futureshop instead. Similar to how they buy cars from car dealerships, and not from Walmart; or alcohol from liquor stores, and not from Walmart.
This response is long, but hopefully it should clear up any ambiguities over my previous statements.

Ah, but that's just it, it's not. It will APPEAR to be about preventing children from buying excessively violent games (for the record, I used to ensure that minors didn't buy inappropriate games at my store). But, as we all know, politics isn't always about doing what they appear to do. This is how I see politics and I doubt too may would disagree.

The MPAA sets the ratings for movies, not the federal gov't. The movie industry is self-regulated, just like the games industry. The punishment for allowing children in to see R-rated movies is handed out by the industry itself (ie. they don't get movies anymore) not the gov't. This is a HUGE distinction and one that should not be taken lightly.

Right now, AO is like NC-17. No one wants to carry it 'cause of the content and the fact it will stand up in court more in case they get sued. And the whole family-image thing, which ALL larger store, Futureshop and Walmart included, want to keep to a certain level. This is why they don't carry NC-17 rated films (ie. pornos). This also explains why Rockstar and Take Two went to such lengths (and spent such coin) to recall and change GTA for the SOLE reason the rating was forced to be changed from M to AO by the ESA due to the Hot Coffee scandal.

These last two paragraphs are fact, not opinion. If you don't believe me, do a search on the MPAA and how it operates as well as all those articles a few months ago about the Hot Coffee scandal and the fallout from it. To help, here's a link to the MPAA site and the ratings it has ( http://www.mpaa.org/movieratings/index.htm ). Note the word "voluntary" on the top of the page.

So, what happens if you mix what I believe is some ignorant yet politically powerful people's personal beliefs with what is widely considered to be ulterior motives in decisions and actions by politicians with the facts of regulations and enforcement above to reach a federally-regulated enforcement agency with the power to set ratings and punish those who break them with a federal crime? A very serious blow on the creativity and scope of the industry, one that is not being placed on any other entertainment industry, including movies which NO ONE can argue has much more violent, graphic, and pornographic material on a regular basis in a more regularly available manner.

AO will come by A LOT easier when people who think that games are for children (remember, the whole reason they're doin' this is to protect the children since, apparently, they're the only people that play games) are the ones setting the ratings. The fallout of this, as previously explained, is that the distribution of these games will be severly limited. This is what the real issue is, as was proven by the Hot Coffee deal. The unconstitutional part comes in the limitations placed by the proposed federal regulation as the changes would severly limit the distribution due to the restrictions and consequences imposed. It's worked for movie industry for 40 years and for the games industry for the last decade and a half and continues to hold up in court.

Now, to respond to Barret. There are A LOT of stores that still don't bother limiting the sale of M to children. They will allow any 12 year-old to buy MGS3. This is the one fault of the self-regulation that needs to be corrected. The ESA has started to come down on those who do go against their ratings, but it's not severe enough. They need to do the MPAA thing and say if you sell the M games to someone under 18 without an adult present or with previous permission, you don't get games delivered anymore, period. Just like the movie industry.

Until they do that, it'll be up to the individual companies to place their own enforcement. At the EBs here, they're told they have to follow the ratings to cover their own asses, so they follow them. At the larger independant chain (Microplay), they're SUGGESTED and only follow them if they deem it necessary (so, basically, it's hardly used). This has to change to become more effective and get the lawmakers somewhat off their backs, but I think it'll only happen when they're forced to do it. They're not stupid, they know that kids from 12-17 are buying up a lot of GTA and other M-rated games and driving sales. So, no one WANTS to do it, they'll just be forced to at some point. I think they should be proactive to prevent a lot of what's happening with politicians trying to get involved, but I'm an idiot who thinks in a logical manner.

To see the real effect of this proposed legislation, Seek, you have to look at how the power can/will be used, not what it's proposed to do. For those of us who like variety in our software, this will be an extremely bad law that will force everyone to play Nintendo-like games. This may lead to Don or Sine going on a killing spree, so it might actually have the negative effect :azn:

PostPosted:Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:12 am
by Julius Seeker
Zeus wrote:this will be an extremely bad law that will force everyone to play Nintendo-like games
All major RPGs are T rated or lower. Sega, Square, Namco, Enix, and other major companies do not make M-rated or higher titles either. Most games on any console are not M-rated games.

I also do not understand how you can make a claim that the government sees videogames as only for children when they are actually making a law that acknowledges the opposite; that there are games that should only be purchased by adults. If they did think that videogames were only played by children, then they would probably ban M-rated games and above; which is what it sounds like you think they're doing. This is not the case at all.

I do not think this will have much or any impact on the industry. Just like banning sale of liquor to minors didn't have any impact on the alcohol industry. I mean, you can worry about it if you want. I am not going to, it seems like a waste of time. I do not think it will effect anything. Rockstar is from the UK, the UK government has been regulating sales of adult themed games since 1989 with the punishment being 5000 pounds or up to 6 months in prison. Why would things be different in the US than in the UK? I think you are majorly over-reacting. I do not see any proof that anything you have said will come to pass.

Besides, if the US wants to be left out, let them. The main market for videogames will be Europe in the next few years anyways. If a game like GTA is going to sell 5 million copies in Europe, then they will make it even if it is banned in the US. Of course, I see no reason why this law will change anything significantly, it hasn't in other Western nations.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:07 pm
by SineSwiper
Zeus wrote:Now, to respond to Barret. There are A LOT of stores that still don't bother limiting the sale of M to children. They will allow any 12 year-old to buy MGS3. This is the one fault of the self-regulation that needs to be corrected. The ESA has started to come down on those who do go against their ratings, but it's not severe enough. They need to do the MPAA thing and say if you sell the M games to someone under 18 without an adult present or with previous permission, you don't get games delivered anymore, period. Just like the movie industry.
I'm at work and sorta busy, but I'll at least reply to this point. I really disagree with it being the store's job to do the parenting for children and games. It's up to the parents to know what they are playing. If you think that your 12-year-old kid is mature enough to play M-rated games, then they should be able to buy and play them. The stores shouldn't be punished for the parents' shit-for-brains attitude towards parenting.

Cable companies are already trying to educate parents that "Yes, you fucking retard dickwad, there is parental controls to block your kids from watching naughty shit. So, please quit fucking bitching about violence on TV, etc. Oh, and pay attention to the fucking TV ratings. Here: we make it half the fucking screen so that you can look at it, okay?"

Moral: People are fucking stupid!

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:34 pm
by Lox
SineSwiper wrote:I'm at work and sorta busy, but I'll at least reply to this point. I really disagree with it being the store's job to do the parenting for children and games. It's up to the parents to know what they are playing. If you think that your 12-year-old kid is mature enough to play M-rated games, then they should be able to buy and play them. The stores shouldn't be punished for the parents' shit-for-brains attitude towards parenting.

Cable companies are already trying to educate parents that "Yes, you fucking retard dickwad, there is parental controls to block your kids from watching naughty shit. So, please quit fucking bitching about violence on TV, etc. Oh, and pay attention to the fucking TV ratings. Here: we make it half the fucking screen so that you can look at it, okay?"

Moral: People are fucking stupid!
I get your point, but the example of the cable controls doesn't exactly apply. I do not think that parental controls on a system control the games that can be played, only the movies. Correct me if I'm wrong. Until they do, then stores need to do the policing because they have direct control over what actually gets into a kids hands (for the most part). Right now, parents can tell their kids not to play an M-Rated game, but they can't police it when they're not home.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:55 pm
by Don
You can't buy tobacco or alcohol without being a certain age and this is obviously enforced just about everywhere even though the parents are supposed to tell their kids they shouldn't do that.

I guess it's easier to blame parenting than admitting there is a problem, though.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:08 pm
by SineSwiper
Lox wrote:I get your point, but the example of the cable controls doesn't exactly apply. I do not think that parental controls on a system control the games that can be played, only the movies. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I was using the cable controls as an example. They don't have anything to do with games. (But, they can also limit controls on TV as well.)

There are parental controls on console systems, but I'm not completely sure if it can be applied to game ratings. (It may be something for DVDs only.)
Lox wrote:Until they do, then stores need to do the policing because they have direct control over what actually gets into a kids hands (for the most part). Right now, parents can tell their kids not to play an M-Rated game, but they can't police it when they're not home.
Whatever happened to police your kids by saying "If you play this game, you're fucking grounded"? It's not like the kids are going to get away with hiding the game forever. And wasting $50 for a game that is going to end up being snapped in half by parents when they discover it is not exactly a good use of precious, precious allowance money.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:42 pm
by Lox
SineSwiper wrote:There are parental controls on console systems, but I'm not completely sure if it can be applied to game ratings. (It may be something for DVDs only.)
I'm pretty sure that they don't limit the games that can be played. Maybe this is something that they should do.
SineSwiper wrote:Whatever happened to police your kids by saying "If you play this game, you're fucking grounded"? It's not like the kids are going to get away with hiding the game forever. And wasting $50 for a game that is going to end up being snapped in half by parents when they discover it is not exactly a good use of precious, precious allowance money.
I think that is definitely the parents role to do as much as humanly possible to control what their kids play. I'm not saying that the parents should just leave it up to the game stores and assume their kids are stopped from playing these games.

I actually want to rephrase my last post and say that I don't think the stores should be responsible for policing the kids on their own, but rather they should do as much as possible to make it easier for parents to do that job. The stores and the parents should be part of a puzzle with the 3rd piece maybe being parental controls on the systems that gives parents the ability to do their job as much as possible.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:26 pm
by Julius Seeker
I don't agree with the concept of keeping children under the thumb of the parents. I would argue that a child would be be better off having more freedom from the parent, but not being able to buy those games from the stores unless the parent is there to purchase the game.

Some kids shouldn't play violent games, I think we all knew at least one anti-social psychopathic Doom fan when we were kids.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:35 pm
by Lox
The Seeker wrote:I don't agree with the concept of keeping children under the thumb of the parents. I would argue that a child would be be better off having more freedom from the parent, but not being able to buy those games from the stores unless the parent is there to purchase the game.

Some kids shouldn't play violent games, I think we all knew at least one anti-social psychopathic Doom fan when we were kids.
Not every child should be kept under thumb. The amount a parent regulates what their child is allowed to do should be based on that child's need. Some children would be better having more freedom from their parents, but not all. You basically say so in your last sentence, so I don't think we disagree there (if you meant what you said). I can argue just as easily that a specific child should have less freedom from their parents.

I think the tough part for parents is determing the right amount of space for your child without letting them do whatever the heck they want. But, then again, no one ever said parenting was easy.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:43 pm
by Don
If something says 'can't buy unless you're 17/18/whatever' then I think it should be up to the store to enforce it. Unless the rating is just there for the show, there's no reason why anyone under the listed age should be buying something that says it's not for them. And if the ratings aren't intended to mean 'can't buy this' then they probably should change them to reflect what's actually going on, i.e. something like PG 13.

I realize you can't possibly enforce everything, but it's not exactly costly to make sure a game that says M doesn't get sold to someone who obviously looks too young to be buying it. The fundamental question to ask is "Are we supposed to sell M rated games to people below 17". If it's yes then whatever they're doing right now is fine. If the answer is no then it's up to the store to enforce it like anything else you need an age requirement to buy.

PostPosted:Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:24 pm
by Imakeholesinu
The Seeker wrote:
Barret wrote:Seriously though, this is to protect the kids but the parents are usually there buying the titles for the kids anyway, so how is this law really protecting the kids? How do most of these games end up in minor's possession? They didn't buy it because they get carded at retailers now so they either "Hey Mr." it or the parents buy it for them since they don't know/don't care about the rating system in place or what it means. Naturally, I don't think most parents give two shits about what their kids play (though mine did) but they still got them for us and let us rent them anyway.

This law does absolutely nothing and will be shot down as unconstitutional just like in St. Louis County and Indianapolis.
I bought dozens upon dozens of games when I was a kid. What is unconstitutional about regulating porn and excessively violent material from minors?
My point is, no matter how much legislation is passed, it'll still end up getting into the kids XBOX360 at somepoint before he/she turns 17/18. Whether the parents buy it for him, or the kid at Best Buy checking him out doesn't ask for his ID cause he knows him.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

PostPosted:Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:57 pm
by Zeus
SineSwiper wrote:
Lox wrote:I get your point, but the example of the cable controls doesn't exactly apply. I do not think that parental controls on a system control the games that can be played, only the movies. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I was using the cable controls as an example. They don't have anything to do with games. (But, they can also limit controls on TV as well.)

There are parental controls on console systems, but I'm not completely sure if it can be applied to game ratings. (It may be something for DVDs only.)
Lox wrote:Until they do, then stores need to do the policing because they have direct control over what actually gets into a kids hands (for the most part). Right now, parents can tell their kids not to play an M-Rated game, but they can't police it when they're not home.
Whatever happened to police your kids by saying "If you play this game, you're fucking grounded"? It's not like the kids are going to get away with hiding the game forever. And wasting $50 for a game that is going to end up being snapped in half by parents when they discover it is not exactly a good use of precious, precious allowance money.
There has to be SOME onus placed on the stores. They simply need to follow the MPAA and ensure that if any store gets caught selling M or AO games to minors without an adult present, their supply stops. It's the easiest and most effective way (for the cost). That should also wake up the parents a little since now they actually have some recourse (I'm assuming a 1-800 number to report infractions). THEN the ESA has a leg to stand on in any court, law or public.

PostPosted:Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:20 am
by SineSwiper
No, following the MPAA in any sense of the phrase is wrong, wrong, wrong. The MPAA has been forced into this mismatched categorization game by politics and the fact that no NC-17 movie ever sold well and never shows on on the theater screen.

I don't want to ESRP to be forced into that same position. For the most part politics have stayed out of it, but this recent Hot Coffee bullshit has forced the ESRP to make decisions based on politics, and it's only a downward spiral from there.

PostPosted:Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:15 pm
by Zeus
SineSwiper wrote:No, following the MPAA in any sense of the phrase is wrong, wrong, wrong. The MPAA has been forced into this mismatched categorization game by politics and the fact that no NC-17 movie ever sold well and never shows on on the theater screen.

I don't want to ESRP to be forced into that same position. For the most part politics have stayed out of it, but this recent Hot Coffee bullshit has forced the ESRP to make decisions based on politics, and it's only a downward spiral from there.
That's where the slight difference will have to be, to ensure AO games get much more exposure than they do now if it's going to be easier to get that rating.

But for everything else, particularly the punishment for breakin' the rules, they should do it. It's the best way and an extra defense