The Other Worlds Shrine

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Somehow, we still tolerate each other. Eventually this will be the only forum left.
 #100344  by Nev
 Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:20 pm
Ok. So I'm sitting here at my mom's, today, eating good food and reading Sinfest and wondering how the hell to forgive my former business partner and move on with my life.

Generally the story is too long to go into fully. We originally decided that I would focus on development for this game, and that he would handle the business arrangements, so that we could split our resources and maximize use of our time. What's bothering me is that my "partner" incorporated the company we were working for in his own name without asking me about it, then proceeded to shut me out from all the business decisions and make them himself, in a way I felt was moderately to unconditionally incompetent. In the end, we couldn't get the game I was working on sold, and he fired me at that point after I was completely broke, and refused to help me network to find another job in the industry after that (despite that he had forbidden me to have external contact with anyone outside of the company after he'd incorporated, which destroyed my own contact network and left me moderately to completely helpless in terms of finding job openings any way other than the internet).

For my part, the problem was that whenever he'd start to do something that I felt was just really egregiously likely to screw us (and many of these decisions *did* screw us, badly, later), I'd start yelling at him and telling him why he couldn't do that. I do understand that for a "boss", which he became after incorporating in his name only, it's generally considered acceptable to fire an employee who does this. Still, I'm convinced that the decisions he was making were, at *best*, focused on improving his wealth only and were not the kind of decisions that took my own welfare into account - at worst, they were just ridiculously incompetent. In the interest of fairness, another problem was that I failed to estimate my own needs properly, financial and businesswise, and tried to just carry the burden myself instead of telling him what I really needed. This didn't work, and I frequently had to ask him for additional resources (which I don't feel was unreasonable - he was only "paying" me $2,000 BEFORE taxes - but it made him feel like I wasn't doing my job). For his part, I don't think he cared to try to notice that I was hurting, which I feel is generally a characteristic that a decent partner or employer would have.

So, now, he's doing well, recording a new album with his band and generally eating out in expensive restaurants, while I'm living on $1.40 tins of sardines and fielding tremendous numbers of calls from bill collectors every day. I have an investment deal to start up a company on my own, and the funding should be here next week, but these last few days until I get it are getting really tough - I'm just completely out of money. If my mom wasn't helping me out, I'd be applying for general relief at this point.

At this point I'm really not looking for "things I should have done differently". I have a pretty comprehensive list of those. I'm looking for ways to keep my brain from exploding with anger every time I think of his face - ways to move on and get on to where I can devote 100% of my time to my next project. If he were just some random asshole, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but he was one of my best friends right up to the point where he incorporated in his own name.

Advice would be appreciated (though, please please please don't patronize - I'm just not likely to deal with it well right now). Thanks guys!

 #100359  by Kupek
 Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:51 am
Why forgive him? Sounds like he was a dick and he screwed you over. Just move on and deal with the forgiveness issue later, when everything isn't so fresh. Put your efforts into the new stuff coming along, and deal with the personal issues when you've gained some perspective on the situation.

Really, I don't think you're looking for advice, I think you just wanted to vent, which is fine. It sounds like you already know what the deal is.

 #100361  by Flip
 Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:00 am
Werent you making a whack-a-mole cell phone game? I'm surprised you couldnt find someone to bite at it, did you ever even finish it?

 #100364  by Zeus
 Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:21 pm
I agree with Kupek here. Fuck him, there's nothing you can do about it now, it's a learning experience. Just remember in the future, where money is involved, protect yourself. If you're an employee, you're an employee. If you are to have any sort of say or pull more than that, get it on paper or it means nothing.

 #100367  by Nev
 Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:26 pm
Flip: Well, it's like this. If you run a two-man baton race, *teleport* to your partner's position, hand off the baton to him, and then watch him trip over his tied-together shoelaces and knock himself unconscious, odds are good that you've lost the race.

We couldn't even get it to the point at which it could successfully be shown. He insisted on making all the business decisions and then ran the project into the ground. Then he refused to give up the rights so that I could try to sell it on my own. Finally, in a move of *very* poor judgement, I agreed to give up my remaining rights to him in exchange for a good recommendation if one of the five places I interviewed at called and asked him, but it turns out that my "unstable" work history (which is a LOT more unstable now that he fired me after I pulled a month of 120-hour weeks to make sure he didn't default on a bad contract he signed) will probably prevent me from getting anything other than an entry-level corporate job, so he never even got asked.

Really, if I could have had a decent chance on selling it, I feel like we'd have had a shot. As it is, I just picked an atrocious business partner.

Zeus: Sadly and regrettably you are right. People have a remarkable tendency to become pond scum where money is concerned, I have found.

 #100377  by Julius Seeker
 Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:15 pm
To bad we have no designated Shrine hitman or thugs. We could seriously "convince" this guy to give up the rights. Then again, that would be illegal =P

So I am going to agree with Kupek, the guy's a dick, move on yourself and then worry about the forgiveness factor later. I will also agree with Zeus, look at this as a learning experience.

 #100381  by Nev
 Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:32 am
Sigh. Gets better and better.

I had a long talk with him today. I don't think I represented him very well - after talking about it more with him, I think he probably has had a clearer head about it than I have, for awhile. He owned his mistakes, which was nice, but he pointed out that I'm not really a team player, which I have to admit is at least partially true.

However, the worse thing is, it turns out that apparently I've gotten a reputation in my industry for not being a team player. Which is really, really bad. However deserved it might be, he basically says that his impression is that no one he knows me who's worked with me before thinks I'm a team player enough to want to work with me again - and in fact, one of the reasons I may have been turned down for a position in the Bay Area is that a former coworker (and friend) of mine may have been hired there, and he thinks that because of a way that I screwed up before - between myself and another friend in this whole circle - this guy may consider me antisocial and an unacceptable risk, and may have advised them as such.

I think it's a bit shitty to hold someone's personal actions against them in a business context (unless I'd, you know, killed a baby or something), but it's clear to me that I've got to change. It was very hard for me to understand the team-play method of thinking, prior to today, because of where I come from as regards my youth and educational experiences, and I feel strongly that if these people actually knew where I was coming from and where I'm trying to go, that they'd be pretty much willing to trust me enough to work with me again. But it's not going to happen unless I seriously repent for...well, not playing with the team...

God, I hate work. I seriously feel worse tonight than I have in a long time.

 #100386  by Lox
 Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:16 am
It only takes one action to ruin your reputation in someone else's eyes. It sounds like you've had more than one action to do that.

IMO, I think that there are certain aspects of a person's personal life that can be used to judge them from a business perspective. From my experience, people aren't much different between their work and home life despite how hard they might try to act differently. If the guy was just holding a grudge, I'd agree that he's out of line. But if he thinks your personality in general would not fit well in that workplace, then he might have a legitimate concern.

Live and learn. Look at what you've done to get this crappy reputation and do what you can to fix it. That's really all you can do.

 #100389  by Nev
 Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:43 pm
Well, I'll reserve judgement until I know. I have no idea if he said anything, and if so, what it was. I'll probably be talking to him at some point after I move up to the Bay Area.

Generally I really think it's pretty shitty though to bring someone's personal life actions into their work actions, however. And I do disagree about differences in work and home life, past a certain point. If someone has committed a murder, I will probably think twice about working with them. I really don't really think I've done anything that bad, however, and I strongly disagree with judging someone's personal life in the context of their working life unless the issue is *really* major.

People don't like me because I tend to take risks and expose parts of my personality that are a bit wild, I think. It doesn't fit with "good and proper mannered corporate behavior". I personally find "good and proper mannered corporate behavior" to be bugfuck boring...kinda glad my next work situation won't be in a corporate environment.

 #100391  by Lox
 Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:20 pm
Well, what I mean is that if I have a friend who is generally unreliable in his personal life. If he's never on time or never follows through when he says he will, etc, then I would probably think twice before wanting to work him. Of course there are times where the person might be the total opposite at work and at home, but some people might not want to take that chance.

I'm not saying this specific example is you, I'm just saying it as an example.

 #100393  by Ishamael
 Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:36 pm
There is no such thing as separating "personal actions" from "business" when personal actions cross the line of causing you to be unable to work with your coworkers. Your ex-coworkers may have felt this was the case.

Bottom line is this - don't be a dick to others. You may (and will) disagree strongly with people, but that doesn't mean you go and yell at them or call them an "ignorant fuck" or some such thing (not saying you did. This is an example for elucidation). Keep everything cordial even when you disagree - this sounds like the root of most of the bad stuff from your end. And if you agreed ahead of time that your sphere would be technical and his would be business, then at some point you have to trust him and cede business decisions to him, or pick up your things and go on to the next venture if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY disagree.

Also, your "partner" doesn't sound like the greatest guy in the world either. And I think calling him your partner is a tad understating things - let's face it, somehow he weaseled his way into being your boss and the owner of the company. There's no way this guy should have been in any position to do *anything* without your personal approval. I guess I don't need to tell you to make sure you get a legal agreement next time so crap like this doesn't happen.

 #100398  by Nev
 Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:04 am
With the exception of this business partner, this was not the case - I've never, ever yelled at anyone except him in a working context, for instance. But if I ever have to work in the corporate world again, I will follow this advice.

If, however, I end up making a success of this company, I am reserving the right to at least *think* that certain other people are worthless, cowardly, untalented slag fuckers. Sooooo tired of being held back by some or another boss who sucks at his job, but doesn't want to admit that he sucks, especially when he sucks because he lacks the personal confidence to make assertive or strong decisions about a certain issue. When someone is in, say, their mid-twenties or so, this is frequently forgivable - when someone gets to be about thirty and onward, it gets a lot less cute, I think.

I probably won't make a habit of telling them so, but I feel increasingly less and less inclined to be nice and pussyfoot around certain issues. There's a modicum of courage that's required for a successful adult life, I feel - if someone wants to continue being meek and letting life run him/her over, that is fine with me, but when you are my boss and your lack of courage is making our team look and perform like shit, I am sorry, I probably will continue to lose my mind. It's always the most cowardly people that end up getting their feelings by this shit, too.

Jesus! It's called "adult life"!!!!!!! Sometimes you gotta be assertive!!!!! Deal with it!!!!!!!

 #100414  by Ishamael
 Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:38 pm
Nev wrote:With the exception of this business partner, this was not the case - I've never, ever yelled at anyone except him in a working context, for instance. But if I ever have to work in the corporate world again, I will follow this advice.

If, however, I end up making a success of this company, I am reserving the right to at least *think* that certain other people are worthless, cowardly, untalented slag fuckers. Sooooo tired of being held back by some or another boss who sucks at his job, but doesn't want to admit that he sucks, especially when he sucks because he lacks the personal confidence to make assertive or strong decisions about a certain issue. When someone is in, say, their mid-twenties or so, this is frequently forgivable - when someone gets to be about thirty and onward, it gets a lot less cute, I think.

I probably won't make a habit of telling them so, but I feel increasingly less and less inclined to be nice and pussyfoot around certain issues. There's a modicum of courage that's required for a successful adult life, I feel - if someone wants to continue being meek and letting life run him/her over, that is fine with me, but when you are my boss and your lack of courage is making our team look and perform like shit, I am sorry, I probably will continue to lose my mind. It's always the most cowardly people that end up getting their feelings by this shit, too.

Jesus! It's called "adult life"!!!!!!! Sometimes you gotta be assertive!!!!! Deal with it!!!!!!!
I can definitely understand that way of thinking. But another, more healthy way of thinking is to remember that you're there for a job (assuming this is typical corporate wage-slavedom, not your own business) - not to prove anything about courage or the like. All you can do is suggest what you think is the right way. The guy who's paid to be your boss always has the final call. Just do what he says, for better or worse. Take emotion out of the equation. If he's doing so badly that it's affecting your mental health or you think it's hopeless beyond reason, then find another job. No point in putting up with needless idiocy.

Don't look at it as a way to do something other than pay the bills.

 #100418  by Nev
 Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:13 pm
Just glad to be out of it, at least for the near future. Corporations make me lose my mind.

 #100421  by Ishamael
 Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:50 am
Nev wrote:Just glad to be out of it, at least for the near future. Corporations make me lose my mind.
Just keep the right attitude (be nice, but don't take anything too personally, find a new job if the current one gets too idiotic), and it's all good. :)

I've yet to find the perfect situation (i.e. married to a billionaire). Still looking though! :)

 #100522  by Nev
 Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:32 am
No, I'm serious. Corporations practically make me ill at this point. I'm hoping to God I can get this business started, or I may have to switch careers.

 #100542  by Oracle
 Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:00 pm
And one day you, too, will be a corporation. BECOME WHAT YOU HATE!

 #100544  by Zeus
 Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:47 pm
Nev wrote:No, I'm serious. Corporations practically make me ill at this point. I'm hoping to God I can get this business started, or I may have to switch careers.
You gotta learn to just do what you gotta do to survive and try not to let the corps suck your soul away completely. You can't escape it. Even if you are independant, you still need a corporation to buy your product to get it out there. He who controls the supply chain controls business

 #100559  by Nev
 Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:48 pm
I've been doing underground hip-hop production for a few months now. My soul was gone by about week 2. :D But, thanks for the concern.